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Is the Devil a God ?
- Thread starter Oryonder
- Start date
Road Warrior
Seeking the middle path..
If true, then this argument totally disproves God's omnipotence.
chinu
chinu
Like.. an electric battery has two ends nagative and positive, Similarly God has two ends, Good and Evil.
Like when CURRENT comes out from an electric battery in two forms nagative and positive to light a bulb, Simialrly DEVIL comes out from God in two forms good and bad to light a world.
Like if there would have been no bulb than there would have been no nagative, positive, or CURRENT only a electric battery, Similarly if there would have been no world than there would have been no good, bad, or DEVIL, only God.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
In Canaanite religion the predecessor of the Biblical Lucifer is Shachar (Canaanite and Hebrew for 'Dawn') who tried to climb higher than the rest of the pantheon. In the Hebrew Bible though there is no direct relation between Hillel Ben Shachar (Lucifer Son of Dawn) and Satan. Satan in the Hebrew Bible is either a generic term for an adversary or in special cases such as in the book of Job an office in the divine court which is still limited by the authority of a sovereign God.
Only in Christianity Satan became the God of this Earth and in complete dual opposition to God, as his enemy, as a tester of Jesus in the desert, as inducing a betrayal against God incarnate etc. This could be inspired by historical Zoroastrian duality between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman the Persian devil.
BobbyisStrange
The Adversary
The devil is a fascinating character in the Bible.
Personally I dont even think he is an evil character. The character of the devil (the tempter) or The Satan (the adversary) has an interesting Job, it is to get people to prove they are worthy of God, it is what we see happening in the book of Job. God is in meeting with his angels and the Satan (the adversary) was among them and God and The Satan start having the convo about Job being righteous. The Satan tells God, but it you do this, that and the other he will surely reject you Job doesnt. I feel like we sort of see this when Jesus was tempted by the Satan Sort of like the Satan is saying, you claim to be the son of God, you better prove it buddy.
We see this played out very well in the book of Numbers.
But Gods anger was kindled because he went, and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as his adversary. Now he was riding on the donkey, and his two servants were with him. Numbers 22:22
In Hebrew:
vai·yi·char-af e·lo·him ki-ho·v·lech hu vai·yit·ya·tzev mal·'ach ha·shem bad·de·rech le·sa·tan lov ve·hu ro·chev al-a·to·nov u·she·nei ne·'a·rav im·mov.
Satan works as Gods adversary, the guy who does the Lords dirty work.
I have always thought of The Satan like this. When you die you are on trial. God is the judge, you defend yourself and The Satan is there prosecuting you. So every time you answer why you are worthy of Heaven, the Satan is there to tell you why you are not worthy and ultimately God makes the call.
Personally I dont even think he is an evil character. The character of the devil (the tempter) or The Satan (the adversary) has an interesting Job, it is to get people to prove they are worthy of God, it is what we see happening in the book of Job. God is in meeting with his angels and the Satan (the adversary) was among them and God and The Satan start having the convo about Job being righteous. The Satan tells God, but it you do this, that and the other he will surely reject you Job doesnt. I feel like we sort of see this when Jesus was tempted by the Satan Sort of like the Satan is saying, you claim to be the son of God, you better prove it buddy.
We see this played out very well in the book of Numbers.
But Gods anger was kindled because he went, and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as his adversary. Now he was riding on the donkey, and his two servants were with him. Numbers 22:22
In Hebrew:
vai·yi·char-af e·lo·him ki-ho·v·lech hu vai·yit·ya·tzev mal·'ach ha·shem bad·de·rech le·sa·tan lov ve·hu ro·chev al-a·to·nov u·she·nei ne·'a·rav im·mov.
Satan works as Gods adversary, the guy who does the Lords dirty work.
I have always thought of The Satan like this. When you die you are on trial. God is the judge, you defend yourself and The Satan is there prosecuting you. So every time you answer why you are worthy of Heaven, the Satan is there to tell you why you are not worthy and ultimately God makes the call.
Road Warrior
Seeking the middle path..
Agreed to a large extent. In parts of the Bible, the Devil seems more in the role of Prosecutor in the Court of God. In others, a rebel.
I do believe Satan is "evil", but my definition of evil is simply "without God" just like darkness is simply without light. Not a force by itself, just a lacking of willingness to embrace God.
There could be one all powerfull God and lesser Gods. Kind of like the Greek Pantheon with Zeus at the top of the food chain.
This was also true of the Sumerian, Assyrian and Canaanite Pantheon where El/Enlil, Ellil was at the top but there were other Gods.
Even the Bible talks about Yahweh being in a council of other Gods. In particular Psalm 82.
http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_144.pdf
Perhaps the Devil does not embrace God. Obviously he was not punished too much for this because he was able to offer Jesus the whole world.
Clearly the Devil has a significant, if not God-like power, according to the Bible story of Jesus temptation.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
I would argue that the devil where evil arrives from is a ''live'' thing even if you do not belief it to be a being.
The Islamic teachings tells us that the Devil is a Jin i wouldn't translate Jin to a spirit since it has a broader meaning and has different categorise. The creations of God never becomes equal or a opposite of him the devil was created and send to earth for the purpose of testing man and rejecting Adam(p) in my knowledge.
If your god has a opposite then your god is weak and certainly if he made him in the first place.
There is also a view out there that each person has a little angle and devil on hes shoulders *that cannot be seen* who whispers in your ears what to do.. Just like in the cartoon Tom and Jerry i am pretty sure you know what i am talking about
The Islamic teachings tells us that the Devil is a Jin i wouldn't translate Jin to a spirit since it has a broader meaning and has different categorise. The creations of God never becomes equal or a opposite of him the devil was created and send to earth for the purpose of testing man and rejecting Adam(p) in my knowledge.
If your god has a opposite then your god is weak and certainly if he made him in the first place.
There is also a view out there that each person has a little angle and devil on hes shoulders *that cannot be seen* who whispers in your ears what to do.. Just like in the cartoon Tom and Jerry i am pretty sure you know what i am talking about
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CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
The Devil is God. The Devil is just the Shadow side of God.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
You will have to define your terms.
Or hope that all who reply do.
Different people will have different ideas. Im interested in what these ideas are.
BobbyisStrange
The Adversary
I sort of agree with this statement.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Since my post did not get a reply. I'll try to cover it again.
Hillel Ben Shachar which appears as Lucifer Son of Dawn in English version of the Bible is the source for the theology around the fall of the devil. These passages in the book of Isaiah have origins in a Canaanite myth in which Shachar the deity of the dawn attempts to rise above all the other gods of the Canaanite pantheon. In Hebrew context, it makes perfect sense. It is a prophecy of pride and fall attributed to a Near Eastern king and has strong roots in local regional culture and mythology. Christian monks took Lucifer and turned him into the devil, up until that point we could still find Christian saints named St. Lucifer (research the matter for historical references).
the term Satan in Hebrew has a wide context in the Bible as a generic term for any adversary. An adversary to the king of Israel for example in the form of political opposition or an enemy.
In the book of Job, we can see Satan making an appearance as an actual being in the angelic court. He arrives with the rest of the Sons of God and gives his account to the Lord. He later challenges God to test his faithful servant Job. Still not a cosmic enemy of God, but more of a trickster.
Under Zoroastrian influences, Christianity transformed Satan into a nemesis. The woes of the world are now attributed to Satan. This is a pretty new theology which did not exist in the earlier Hebrew scripture.
It is my understanding that Zoroastrianism was in large part responsible for the transformation of Judaism from a polytheistic to a monotheistic religion.
I agree that "The Devil" has changed over time, especially in Christianity once the universal Church took power.
For those that follow more traditional Christian dogma .. I am interested in how the Devil is thought of and what the basis is for this thinking.