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Is the Devil a God ?

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Perhaps the Devil does not embrace God. Obviously he was not punished too much for this because he was able to offer Jesus the whole world.

Clearly the Devil has a significant, if not God-like power, according to the Bible story of Jesus temptation.

Significant powers, yes, but condoned by God. My guess is that God needs the Devil for the purpose of creating a dichotomy in the Universe. Free will can't be tested if there are no choices. In one respect, this shows why the entire Garden of Eden, "fall from grace" story was a set up. God knew Adam and Eve would eat from the Tree of Knowledge and attain self-awareness. Without self-awareness, there can be no free will.

This discussion of God and the Devil reminds me of a Chinese Wall.
 

Jacksnyte

Reverend
Is the Devil just a fallen angel or is the Devil a God albeit perhaps a lesser one ?

Most representations of the Christian Devil are actually amalgamations of concepts and representations of pre-christian gods.
One religion's devil is usually the previous culture's god. It all hinges on the fact that history is always written from the perspective of the conqueror.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The character of Satan hardly has any presence in the Hebrew Bible. Jews generally don't view Satan as a form of major adversary to their god- that concept came later. I don't know what Christians realize when they propose a major enemy that Jews never particularly acknowledged at all.

With Persian/Zoroastrian influence, later ideas make it so that this Satan is against God. It's like a big action/war movie- it's always better with a villain. The snake in Eden that was never specifically described as Satan was identified as Satan anyway. But he surely was a bringer of light if he was willing to gave mankind knowledge in the story when god was not.

It seems to me that Christianity, with Jesus, Mary, and Satan, and in some cases, saints that people pray to, has polytheist leanings. In some doctrines, the Satan character has a power level that rivals or exceeds Greek gods.

Omnipotence excludes the possibility of any sort of legitimate villain. The propositions of omnipotence and omniscience are such that everything is in control and every threat is negligible or part of the plan.
 

Oryonder

Active Member
Significant powers, yes, but condoned by God. My guess is that God needs the Devil for the purpose of creating a dichotomy in the Universe. Free will can't be tested if there are no choices. In one respect, this shows why the entire Garden of Eden, "fall from grace" story was a set up. God knew Adam and Eve would eat from the Tree of Knowledge and attain self-awareness. Without self-awareness, there can be no free will.

This discussion of God and the Devil reminds me of a Chinese Wall.


Condoned by God. Now that brings up some interesting ideas. "Created by God", Intended by God, might be other ways of saying it.

As you state .. can't really call it a "fall from Grace" when it was intended from the beginning.

Does this not turn God into a bit of a trickster ?
 

NeedingGnosisNow

super-human
The Demiurge was the serpent in the garden. He's the flawed god that is responsible for creating the material plane. He's not necessarily evil, just ignorant. He's Satan and the Old Testament god all rolled into one. Their is no real Satan.
 

Oryonder

Active Member
The character of Satan hardly has any presence in the Hebrew Bible. Jews generally don't view Satan as a form of major adversary to their god- that concept came later. I don't know what Christians realize when they propose a major enemy that Jews never particularly acknowledged at all.

With Persian/Zoroastrian influence, later ideas make it so that this Satan is against God. It's like a big action/war movie- it's always better with a villain. The snake in Eden that was never specifically described as Satan was identified as Satan anyway. But he surely was a bringer of light if he was willing to gave mankind knowledge in the story when god was not.

It seems to me that Christianity, with Jesus, Mary, and Satan, and in some cases, saints that people pray to, has polytheist leanings. In some doctrines, the Satan character has a power level that rivals or exceeds Greek gods.

Omnipotence excludes the possibility of any sort of legitimate villain. The propositions of omnipotence and omniscience are such that everything is in control and every threat is negligible or part of the plan.

Most representations of the Christian Devil are actually amalgamations of concepts and representations of pre-christian gods.
One religion's devil is usually the previous culture's god. It all hinges on the fact that history is always written from the perspective of the conqueror.

Religion was long ago recognized as an effective tool to control the "raging masses"
Like any tool, religion can be used for good or evil.

Egyptians had the concept of Maat. Maat, like Karma, was a force that bound all things together. It represented upholding the laws of justice harmony, unity and balance.

The Egyptians believed that at the end of days ones deeds in life were weighed on the scales of Justice. If you were found to light you were fed to a monster and that was it.

The evolution of the concept of some kind of punishment in the afterlife and the introduction of the "fear factor" increases the effectiveness of religion as a means of control.

Zoroastrianism has the concept of everlasting punishment in Hell. Christianity also relies heavily on "the fear factor". Don't question, believe or suffer. This combination of enforced ignorance (don't question) coupled with fear of eternal punishment was a fantastic way to subdue the masses. Divine right, Pontifex Maximus, codify the ideas that some human speaks for God so you better not question anything that person says.

Should you question you will face the possitility of not only earthly suffering but eternal suffering. Children raised from birth in this doctrine have a build in subconscious aversion to questioning certain religious beliefs so a high percentage dont.

Satan was introduced as the ultra evil sadistic fellow that oversee's hell. This character and demonic images serve to cement the "fear factor" into the minds of adherents.

The next evolution of the "fear factor" was the Quran. On almost ever second page you will find .. Do this and suffer, Dont do this and risk the eternal fire .. over and over .. in many different varients the Quran reminds adherents what awaits should one not believe and obey.
 
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Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Condoned by God. Now that brings up some interesting ideas. "Created by God", Intended by God, might be other ways of saying it.

As you state .. can't really call it a "fall from Grace" when it was intended from the beginning.

Does this not turn God into a bit of a trickster ?

If one believes everthing is "one", then no. How can a god trick himself?

Agreed about "Created" and "Intended". Different ways of saying the same thing. Also agreed how it is a misnomer to term Lucifer's departure for Heaven a "fall from Grace" if that was the plan the entire time.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Demiurge was the serpent in the garden.
Based on what?

This looks to me to be reinterpreting a story that never had that intent.

Religion was long ago recognized as an effective tool to control the "raging masses"
Like any tool, religion can be used for good or evil.

Egyptians had the concept of Maat. Maat, like Karma, was a force that bound all things together. It represented upholding the laws of justice harmony, unity and balance.

The Egyptians believed that at the end of days ones deeds in life were weighed on the scales of Justice. If you were found to light you were fed to a monster and that was it.

The evolution of the concept of some kind of punishment in the afterlife and the introduction of the "fear factor" increases the effectiveness of religion as a means of control.

Zoroastrianism has the concept of everlasting punishment in Hell. Christianity also relies heavily on "the fear factor". Don't question, believe or suffer. This combination of enforced ignorance (don't question) coupled with fear of eternal punishment was a fantastic way to subdue the masses. Divine right, Pontifex Maximus, codify the ideas that some human speaks for God so you better not question anything that person says.

Should you question you will face the possitility of not only earthly suffering but eternal suffering. Children raised from birth in this doctrine have a build in subconscious aversion to questioning certain religious beliefs so a high percentage dont.

Satan was introduced as the ultra evil sadistic fellow that oversee's hell. This character and demonic images serve to cement the "fear factor" into the minds of adherents.

The next evolution of the "fear factor" was the Quran. On almost ever second page you will find .. Do this and suffer, Dont do this and risk the eternal fire .. over and over .. in many different varients the Quran reminds adherents what awaits should one not believe and obey.
I'm aware of those things.

One thing I find interesting is that, over time, it seems to be that the importance placed on the idea of an afterlife has increased substantially. Christians and Muslims, for example, tend to put a lot more emphasis on the importance of the afterlife than Jews ever did or currently do.

It could potentially be due to observing that, quite often, whether a specific god is prayed to or not, or whether certain rituals or commandments are followed or not, does not necessarily protect one from harm or misfortune in this life, or provide blessings in this life. That this life seems to have a big element of chance in it, and often things are interpreted as not making sense from a rational/benevolent standpoint (a person's child dying of childhood cancer, or some other misfortune, for example)
 

Oryonder

Active Member
If one believes everthing is "one", then no. How can a god trick himself?

Agreed about "Created" and "Intended". Different ways of saying the same thing. Also agreed how it is a misnomer to term Lucifer's departure for Heaven a "fall from Grace" if that was the plan the entire time.


Also, if the plan was for Adam "to fall" then there should have been no condemnation from God.

Adams defense would have been .. Dude you created/programmed me to eat the apple .. why are you upset/suprised that your will was done ?

Same for Big D aka Sataniel.

If God created Lucifer .. then it should have been no suprise, and in fact what God intended, when Lucifer revolted.

What I mean by "Trickster" is that if all this "falling" was intended and in fact created by God .. yet God supposedly is "upset" by all this "falling", then God has set man/Lucifer up for failure to begin with.

It is like "I created you to do X, and know you are going to do X, but after creating you I am going to tell you not to do X.

This is a bit of a humourous joke is it not ?
 
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Oryonder

Active Member
One thing I find interesting is that, over time, it seems to be that the importance placed on the idea of an afterlife has increased substantially. Christians and Muslims, for example, tend to put a lot more emphasis on the importance of the afterlife than Jews ever did or currently do.

It could potentially be due to observing that, quite often, whether a specific god is prayed to or not, or whether certain rituals or commandments are followed or not, does not necessarily protect one from harm or misfortune in this life, or provide blessings in this life. That this life seems to have a big element of chance in it, and often things are interpreted as not making sense from a rational/benevolent standpoint (a person's child dying of childhood cancer, or some other misfortune, for example)

One thing I notice that is different about the Jewish tradition is that these folks are taught from birth to question everything. This is one reason I think they produce so many smart people as a percentage of their population.

It has been my experience that most Jews that I have encountered do not take their religion all that seriously. Tradition yes .. religion no. I do not have any clue whether or not my personal experience is shared by others.

I think that those that go around claiming they have some clue about what heaven is like or when "the rapture" will come should be allowed to express their opinion (freedom of speech and all) but that society in general should shun such ideas.

What is scary to me is the thought of some person getting his/her finger on the nuclear trigger who wants to "assist God" or thinks that they are part of "Gods Plan" to bring about the Rapture.

No one knows what awaits in the afterlife. Time is much better spent trying to make this world a better place rather than brooding on what awaits after death.
 

Jacksnyte

Reverend
I think that those that go around claiming they have some clue about what heaven is like or when "the rapture" will come should be allowed to express their opinion (freedom of speech and all) but that society in general should shun such ideas.

What is scary to me is the thought of some person getting his/her finger on the nuclear trigger who wants to "assist God" or thinks that they are part of "Gods Plan" to bring about the Rapture.

We came close to this with George W., and with Sara Palin!
 

Shermana

Heretic
Is the Devil just a fallen angel or is the Devil a God albeit perhaps a lesser one ?

Yes 100%, the devil is in fact a very powerful "god", perhaps The next most powerful underneath THE god of the gods himself.

Angels and heavenly beings are in fact called "gods", this fact was lost on both "Christians" and Jews for centuries due to their misunderstandings of the concept of Monotheism (which may have had something to do with the Trinity).

But 2 Cor 4:4 most clearly calls the Evil one "The god of this world". That should refute any argument by any "Christian" who says there's no other "gods" than The god (the articulated god, the "god of the gods").

Psalm 136:2 is quite clear in calling The god, the "god of the gods", indicating there are other "gods", who are not as powerful.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
Yes 100%, the devil is in fact a very powerful "god", perhaps The next most powerful underneath THE god of the gods himself.

Angels and heavenly beings are in fact called "gods", this fact was lost on both "Christians" and Jews for centuries due to their misunderstandings of the concept of Monotheism (which may have had something to do with the Trinity).

But 2 Cor 4:4 most clearly calls the Evil one "The god of this world". That should refute any argument by any "Christian" who says there's no other "gods" than The god (the articulated god, the "god of the gods").

Psalm 136:2 is quite clear in calling The god, the "god of the gods", indicating there are other "gods", who are not as powerful.

I would agree on almost what you have said except at the start, since those sentences mean actually the same of what you have described below. I am not sure if it was meant as scarcasm or not but if you belief that the Devil is a God and that the Devil is created aren't you making then a contradiction since god is uncreated by definition.

Just asking..
 

Oryonder

Active Member
Yes 100%, the devil is in fact a very powerful "god", perhaps The next most powerful underneath THE god of the gods himself.

Angels and heavenly beings are in fact called "gods", this fact was lost on both "Christians" and Jews for centuries due to their misunderstandings of the concept of Monotheism (which may have had something to do with the Trinity).

But 2 Cor 4:4 most clearly calls the Evil one "The god of this world". That should refute any argument by any "Christian" who says there's no other "gods" than The god (the articulated god, the "god of the gods").

Psalm 136:2 is quite clear in calling The god, the "god of the gods", indicating there are other "gods", who are not as powerful.

Psalm 82 also puts Yahweh in a "council" of Gods. http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_144.pdf
 

Shermana

Heretic
I would agree on almost what you have said except at the start, since those sentences mean actually the same of what you have described below. I am not sure if it was meant as scarcasm or not but if you belief that the Devil is a God and that the Devil is created aren't you making then a contradiction since god is uncreated by definition.

Just asking..

No, there is no contradiction, because the term "god" is not exclusive to the Father. The Father is "a god", but he is also THE god, as in the ultimate god, the "god of the gods". The word "god" does not mean one is created or not, it simply means "A superior/heavenly being".
 

Shermana

Heretic
So you have more gods in the bible Great.. there goes mine signature...

Look it up, the word "Elohim" is used for angels and spirits. The problem is the semantic understanding of the original term and its misappropriation. I mainly blame Trinitarians.
 
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