Is the Euro going to collapse?

[sandandfoam]

:sorry1:

stephenw and Kathryn I don't think you are speaking the same language.

Equality doesn't necessarily mean standardized apartment grids.
Private property doesn't necessarily mean selfish grasping and filthy rich people.

LOL - You're half right

 

[lunakilo]

...
I was in Eastern Europe at the collapse of communism. I've seen firsthand the horrible mess that communism on a large scale creates. ....

I would argue that what you have seen is not communism

 

[lunakilo]

:sorry1:

LOL - You're half right

Better than being totally wrong I guess

 

[Revoltingest]

I would argue that what you have seen is not communism

It seems that no bad example of communism exists.
Where have we ever seen any example of a communist country?

 

[Kathryn]

Stephen, I revised my post while you were responding to it, apparently.

I meant to make it clear that I wasn't relying on other people's take on history. I witnessed the collapse of communism firsthand, along with the joy and hard work and prosperity that this created for many people.

Capitalism isn't perfect and that's not my argument. My argument is simply that human nature creates inevitable disparity. I understand that we are social animals, but we're not ants. And hey, even ants have a queen.

As Jesus said, "The poor are always with us." So apparently are the rich and powerful, even when those terms simply mean that someone's view is better than someone else's - or that they get the new Trabant sooner than their neighbor because they have some sort of "inside connection" to power.

 

[Kathryn]

I would argue that what you have seen is not communism

What I saw was the result of fifty years of communist regimes.

 

[lunakilo]

It seems that no bad example of communism exists.
Where have we ever seen any example of a communist country?

Nowhere.
That is part of the problem, it is a nice idea but not very practical.

 

[lunakilo]

What I saw was the result of fifty years of communist regimes.

No, what you saw was 50 years of regimes calling them selves communist.

EDIT: And I agree, that is deffinatly not the way to go.

 

[sandandfoam]

No, what you saw was 50 years of regimes calling them selves communist.

EDIT: And I agree, that is deffinatly not the way to go.

That's the point.
The current regime in Russia for example seems to me as accurate an advertisement for democracy as the previous one was for communism i.e. not
accurate at all

 

[lunakilo]

That's the point.
The current regime in Russia for example seems to me as accurate an advertisement for democracy as the previous one was for communism i.e. not
accurate at all

I an with you on that.

I am a bit curious as to what you oppinion is to what I stated earlier:

I would say that the basic market forces of supply and demand have some good aspects. Basically it is a simple way communicating what 'people' want to the 'producers'. I don't know of any better way to do this, as no one can see the whole picture of what 'people' want.

Do you agree?
If not how would handle this comunication?

 

[sandandfoam]

I am a bit curious as to what you oppinion is to what I stated earlier:

Do you agree?
If not how would handle this comunication?

I think capitalistic markets do not handle supply and demand and I think that over production as outlined in the piece I pasted above is intrinsic to the capitalistic boom/bust cycle.

I see no room for capital profit.

 

[lunakilo]

I think capitalistic markets do not handle supply and demand and I think that over production as outlined in the piece I pasted above is intrinsic to the capitalistic boom/bust cycle.

I see no room for capital profit.

That was only half an answer.

You just told me that you disagree, not how would handle this comunication?

 

[sandandfoam]

That was only half an answer.

You just told me that you disagree, not how would handle this comunication?

I think much like the provision of health, once private profit is removed from the equation things make sense.
Things are going to have to be exchanged, but not for profit. I'm thinking credit union rather than bank. The cooperative movement.

 

[lunakilo]

I think much like the provision of health, once private profit is removed from the equation things make sense.
Things are going to have to be exchanged, but not for profit. I'm thinking credit union rather than bank. The cooperative movement.

I think there is a big difference between basic necessities like health care and luxury goods like ipods.
You could probably extend a system like the health care system to include other basic necessities standard food products or clothes, but I don't see how ipods and the like would fit in. Ipods are only produced because people are willing to pay money for them.

I am not sure if I understand the difference between a credit union and a bank. To me a credit union is where you go if you want to borrow money.

Since I am danish, when you say The cooperative movement I think Andelsbevægelsen.
Which I personally like, but cooperatives like this are still privatly owned. Owned by many people but still privatly owned.
And the produced products are still sold for a proffit.

And I still don't see how this eliminates the supply and demand marked forces.
How are the cooperatives going to know what to produce?

 

[sandandfoam]

Back to the great wiki lunakilo

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs) is a slogan popularised by Karl Marx in his 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program.[1] The phrase summarizes the principles that, in a communist society, every person should contribute to society to the best of his or her ability and consume from society in proportion to his or her needs. In the Marxist view, such an arrangement will be made possible by the abundance of goods and services that a developed communist society will produce; the idea is that there will be enough to satisfy everyone's needs

even ipods.

 

[lunakilo]

Back to the great wiki lunakilo

even ipods.

So your argument is it is going to work because Karl Marx said so?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

 

[sandandfoam]

So your argument is it is going to work because Karl Marx said so?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

No.
There is a world of evidence all around us that markets do not work, I am saying that we need to replace the tyranny of markets with communism.

I see no basis for your view that markets work. Have you evidence that they do?

 

[Kathryn]

OK - so all the communism we've seen in the past 100 years isn't "really" communism?

Can you show me one example (and by that I don't mean Thomas More's fictional work on the topic!) of a country's successful application of communism with a fairly long track record?

My problem isn't really with the textbook definition of communism. In theory, it sounds pretty good. Utopian, in fact. But we're back to my original point - when humans try to implement it, it doesn't seem to really work.

 

[lunakilo]

No.
There is a world of evidence all around us that markets do not work, I am saying that we need to replace the tyranny of markets with communism.

Yes it is. Your argument FOR communism is that you think it will work (possible because Karl Marx said so)
Arguing that markets don't work (which I at least partly agree with) is an argument AGAINST CAPITALISM, NOT FOR COMMUNISM.

 

[sandandfoam]

OK - so all the communism we've seen in the past 100 years isn't "really" communism?

Can you show me one example (and by that I don't mean Thomas More's fictional work on the topic!) of a country's successful application of communism with a fairly long track record?

My problem isn't really with the textbook definition of communism. In theory, it sounds pretty good. Utopian, in fact. But we're back to my original point - when humans try to implement it, it doesn't seem to really work.

When the world was run by feudal lords a conservative serf maight have used precisely this argument - 'Show me a peasant who hasn't got to answer to a lord. People are designed to be ruled from above.'

Show me an alternative to communism that has been tried that works.
Capitalism is a giant failure that has no equal in spreading misery.
We are only limited by our imagination. Communism is freedom.