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Is the God of Abraham Really That Special?

Tumah

Veteran Member
How many biblical characters believed in the True God and lived happily ever after? I'll wait ....
Incidentally, I think the concept of "if you have faith, then everything will be pretty" is a Christian one. Faith is the only significant requirement in Christianity, and grants them the assurance of salvation. Its a zero-sum game. Your either an angel or a devil, you've either got grace or retribution.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Its always hard to tell what type of argument that is meant to be when there have been many other religious leaders both before and after Jesus that are still discussed today as well.
To the degree of Jesus; very, very few.

Nonetheless it is not an argument for Christianity I'm making here. I am responding to the ludicrous charge that Jesus is at best some minor footnote in history.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
To the degree of Jesus; very, very few.

Nonetheless it is not an argument for Christianity I'm making here. I am responding to the ludicrous charge that Jesus is at best some minor footnote in history.
I can hear the argument that Paul was a significantly more important figure in terms of historical impact.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I can hear the argument that Paul was a significantly more important figure in terms of historical impact.
Yet without Jesus, Paul would have stayed Saul and would have been long lost to history.

Of course it would fall to Jesus' followers to spread the word out to the world. But whatever you and others may think of that word, their success is nonetheless undeniable.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Yet without Jesus, Paul would have stayed Saul and would have been long lost to history.

Of course it would fall to Jesus' followers to spread the word out to the world. But whatever you and others may think of that word, their success is nonetheless undeniable.
There success is definitely as undeniable as Muhammad and co. But my point is that its not Jesus that actually made any direct impact, its Paul. Jesus and everyone else didn't really have any direct impact. I mean, if not for Jesus' great-great-grandmother, Paul would have stayed Saul too, but that doesn't really directly impact history either, right?
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
And we're still making movies about the Gods of Egypt. So what?
And what are the gods of Egypt but dead myths? Unlike state cults, Jesus was anything but what should have been noted to history. He is one of the most, if not the most attested person of that time period.

There success is definitely as undeniable as Muhammad and co. But my point is that its not Jesus that actually made any direct impact, its Paul. Jesus and everyone else didn't really have any direct impact. I mean, if not for Jesus' great-great-grandmother, Paul would have stayed Saul too, but that doesn't really directly impact history either, right?
Paul believed in Jesus to the extent that he gave up his position as a respected Pharisee to join the very ones he was persecuting. He helped hunt Christian down for stoning for goodness' sake. Thus there must have been something about Jesus and his movement for someone such as himself to end up becoming one of its greatest spokesmen. Saint Paul is important, his letters comprise the bulk of the New Testament, but it is not Paul who is worshipped. Paul's impact on the spread of Christianity doesn't at all detract from the historical importance of Jesus. It goes back to my original point, Christ has been revealed to the world.
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
Paul believed in Jesus to the extent that he gave up his position as a respected Pharisee to join the very ones he was persecuting. (He helped hunt Christian downs to be stoned). Thus there must have been something about Jesus and his movement for someone such as himself to end up becoming one of its greatest spokesmen. Saint Paul is important, his letters comprise the bulk of the New testament, but it is not Paul who is worshipped. Paul's impact on the spread of Christianity doesn't at all detract from the historical importance of Jesus. It goes back to my original point, Christ has been revealed to the world.
I'm not sure what "position as a respected Pharisee" means. There doesn't seem to be any indication as to what position he held within Pharisaical leadership. While Gamiliel is a well respected Jewish figure in Judaism, Paul doesn't seem to share that facet. And the Pharisees themselves were in contention with a number of other Jewish groups so were certainly not respected.

All that being said, its not Jesus who wrote the NT, its Paul. Paul was the one who did the leg work. Paul was the one who impacted history with his writings. Jesus directly impacted maybe 12 disciples. Paul's writings directly impacted billions of Christians over the years since. In that respect, Jesus is no more influential on history than is Judas.

Think about it this way: if Jesus never existed and the NT was completely fabricated, we still have an NT that impacted billions of people. If Paul never existed and the NT was never written, then there's no Christianity.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
In my opinion, "gods" are beings. It's not rocket science to see human beings worshipping, idolizing other human beings relentlessly. Human beings putting other human beings over their own good conscience of better judgement will lead to suffering. People sell away their free-thinking and freedom of mind to other beings at will.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Other gods do exist insofar as they are believed to exist and are worshipped by humans. But that alone doesn't imply that those other gods are real conscious entities, just that there are other "gods" which one could worship.

That text was written in a time and place where polytheism was the cultural norm for that part of the world, and thus the temptation to dabble in those religious systems would have been there. That's what the commandment is about. To go any further than that is reading into it. Secondly, Isaiah 45:5.
I think you need to take it one step further. It's not there because of the polytheistic nature of surrounding cultures. It's there because ancient Judaism was itself polytheistic. Yahweh is but one god in the old pantheon.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Consider the First Commandment:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."


What I've always found interesting is that this goes beyond a simple "have me," or some such commandment ordering people to obey and believe in Him, the God of Abraham, but that it implies the actual existence of other gods. "Yes there are other gods, but thou shalt have none of them before Me." If there were no other actual gods there would be no need to make note of them. At most, God would have said "Don't believe in any of the make-believe gods. There is only one actual god. Me." But he doesn't. As far as actual existence goes, He puts the other gods on equal footing in His first commandment.

So, up in the heavens or wherever, there are numerous gods floating around, or whatever they do, including the God of Abraham. He is just one of many gods, and, as it turned out, caught the ear of the ancient Hebrews and convinced them to forget all the other gods. That he is the guy to go to. Meanwhile, the other gods convinced other peoples of the world that each was the Grand Poo-bah of all the gods. So, His specialness only really derives from his say-so. He declared Himself to be the top dog, and you better believe it of else---to the Hebrews anyway. The rest of the people of the world he left to the other gods. OR, perhaps they left Him to the Hebrews. This isn't to denigrate the God of Abraham, but only to put Him in perspective.

So, other than personal bias and long inculcated beliefs, which have left Him ingrained into the minds of a lot of people that He's numero uno among all the gods, is there any realistic reason to accord Him such a position?

Why is His say-so more crediable than the say-so of any other god?


.


DUUH. The god's are not a God.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
I think you need to take it one step further. It's not there because of the polytheistic nature of surrounding cultures. It's there because ancient Judaism was itself polytheistic. Yahweh is but one god in the old pantheon.

Judaism was never polytheistic. Some Jews from time to time did worship other gods, but that never a part of Judaism.



In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't. Blaise Pascal.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Because all the other gods were far superior to Yahweh (allah, baal) because their immortal lands are good for spirits.

Yahweh created hell for all who do not obey his dictatorship.

As Jesus said, 'Always Judge an entity by the fruits its bares'. Yahweh only bares wars just like Allah because they are both aliases for the god of war, Baal (Baalzebub).

How sad. :joycat:


In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't. Blaise Pascal.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
really?
How do you know that?
Oh yeah, HE said so.
Which brings it right back to "Why is His say-so more credible than the say-so of any other god?"


The same way little children know God's loves them----The Bible tells them so.



In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't. Blaise Pascal.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
But this isn't what Christians claim. They claim the Bible is indeed God's word.

:smallbluediamond:The accuracy which has been preserved despite every attempt to corrupt, attack, or destroy it is clear testimony to the fact that the Bible is truly God’s.Word and is
..... supernaturally protected by Him.
.....source


:smallbluediamond:..4. The Bible: The Written Word of God

:smallbluediamond:..the Bible is the Word of God because of its scientific accuracy.

It’s so majestically deep that scholars could swim and never touch the bottom. Yet so wonderfully shallow that a little child could come and get a drink of water without fear of drowning. That is God’s precious, holy Word. The Word of God.
source

:smallbluediamond:..the Bible is exclusively the Word of God is because of its chronological order.
the Bible is exclusively the Word of God is because of its perfect unity.
the Bible is exclusively the Word of God is because it predicts the future.
the Bible is exclusively the word of God is because of its perpetual survival.
[etc., etc.]
source


:smallbluediamond:Evidence That the Bible is God's Word:
1.
2.
3.
.
.
.
15.

source


Nice thoughts, but hardly substantiated by any evidence; however, if you think you have some I'd be happy to look at it.


There is no evidence for non-beleiviers. However you do prove the truth of at least on Scripture---2 Cor 2:14. Thanks.



In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't. Blaise Pascal.


 
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