Is the Good News As Presented in the Bible Snakeoil Salesmanship?

[thomas t]

Recently there was a thread with hundreds of objections to the Bible.
I'd like to pick one of them, which is the last one as of today 10:30 am - being able to go into detail with it.

According to the Good News from to the Bible, everyone is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.

Now, I saw my usual converstaion partner from many threads replying:
"That's snakeoil salesmanship ─ You're doomed and only I can save you: all you have to do is kiss my ─ ahm ─ foot. Oh, and pay the man over there."

well, noone has to kiss anything or pay the pastor in order for them to get saved in a Biblical sense... but let's address the heart of the matter, I think it's pressure:

Is the Gospel forcing a good or service on people that would have declined without all this pressure?

Maybe not, I'm neutral here.

But lets rephrase the problem a bit: where does the pressure come from?
From Jesus - the salesman - or from the customers who might have set themselves under pressure?

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

I think it's the former.

Thomas

 

[epronovost]

Isn't Jesus prmising to save you from sin? In other words, he will "save you" from the righteous wrath of an imaginary creature that conveniently happens to also be him. That's pretty much being a fireman/arsonist. It's not exactly snakeoil since snakeoil is a fake remedy to a real problem, but a close relative of it.

 

[danieldemol]

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

I think it's the former.

The problem is Jesus is the one who is suing you in this metaphor.

Also just because someone offers you something doesn't mean they have the capacity to deliver.

I doubt you can demonstrate that all those Jesus forgave went to heaven, and I doubt you can demonstrate those Jesus did not forgive went to hell.

At best all you can really demonstrate is that Jesus promised that.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

The issue is that it is some people who are claiming that you broke the window to a house and that you are getting sued for it, and saying that some person that nobody living has ever met (Jesus) is offering to pay the bill, and that you must pay allegiance to this person through them and what they tell you to do, in order for him to foot the bill. Yet you have no recollection of ever breaking a window in the first place, the only people telling you you are being sued is not the courts but these random people and you will never see Jesus pay the bill before you commit. So these guys are writing you a contract, involving a whole lot of elements that you will never see and have no conclusive proof of, and you are supposed to sign anyway? That makes no sense.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Recently there was a thread with hundreds of objections to the Bible.
I'd like to pick one of them, which is the last one as of today 10:30 am - being able to go into detail with it.

According to the Good News from to the Bible, everyone is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.

Now, I saw my usual converstaion partner from many threads replying:
"That's snakeoil salesmanship ─ You're doomed and only I can save you: all you have to do is kiss my ─ ahm ─ foot. Oh, and pay the man over there."

well, noone has to kiss anything or pay the pastor in order for them to get saved in a Biblical sense... but let's address the heart of the matter, I think it's pressure:

Is the Gospel forcing a good or service on people that would have declined without all this pressure?

Maybe not, I'm neutral here.

But lets rephrase the problem a bit: where does the pressure come from?
From Jesus - the salesman - or from the customers who might have set themselves under pressure?

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

I think it's the former.

Thomas

These ideas aren't so much from scripture as from taking scripture in a particular way. For instance in the gospels Jesus addresses Jews, but I often read posts which redirect those to everyone. A lot of people also assume they completely understand Paul's letters, yet we don't have the letters sent to him only ones he has sent out. Have you ever tried to listen in on a telephone conversation and heard only half? You can get a very wrong impression of what is being discussed.

 

[viole]

Recently there was a thread with hundreds of objections to the Bible.
I'd like to pick one of them, which is the last one as of today 10:30 am - being able to go into detail with it.

According to the Good News from to the Bible, everyone is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.

Now, I saw my usual converstaion partner from many threads replying:
"That's snakeoil salesmanship ─ You're doomed and only I can save you: all you have to do is kiss my ─ ahm ─ foot. Oh, and pay the man over there."

well, noone has to kiss anything or pay the pastor in order for them to get saved in a Biblical sense... but let's address the heart of the matter, I think it's pressure:

Is the Gospel forcing a good or service on people that would have declined without all this pressure?

Maybe not, I'm neutral here.

But lets rephrase the problem a bit: where does the pressure come from?
From Jesus - the salesman - or from the customers who might have set themselves under pressure?

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

I think it's the former.

Thomas

Actually, they look more like bad news. It is de-facto better not to hear them.

Ciao

- viole

 

[thomas t]

Isn't Jesus prmising to save you from sin?

no. He saves you from not being able to pay your bills. If you accept, of course.

For instance in the gospels Jesus addresses Jews, but I often read posts which redirect those to everyone.

I was quoting Romans. Romans is for all. Jesus invites all. That's how I see it.

A lot of people also assume they completely understand Paul's letters, yet we don't have the letters sent to him only ones he has sent out. Have you ever tried to listen in on a telephone conversation and heard only half? You can get a very wrong impression of what is being discussed.

a good point.
It depends on the telephone conversation and from the way the speaker presents its point.
I am convinced: the the Bible didn't happen by chance without any divine input, and I am also convinced Jesus knew in advance that there would be a situation in which the reader reads Paul's replies not knowing what he was replying to in many cases.

Well Jesus knew that and could have inspired Paul accordingly.
This is at least my stance on the matter.

 

[blü 2]

According to the Good News from to the Bible, everyone is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.

Yes, but why is salvation conditional on acceptance and proclaiming Jesus as Lord? Isn't the idea that Jesus died for the sins of everyone? Period?

Now, I saw my usual converstaion partner from many threads replying:
"That's snakeoil salesmanship ─ You're doomed and only I can save you: all you have to do is kiss my ─ ahm ─ foot. Oh, and pay the man over there."
well, noone has to kiss anything or pay the pastor in order for them to get saved in a Biblical sense...

Didn't you just say, "is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord"? How does proclaiming someone as Lord differ from the metaphorical kissing of the foot?

Is the Gospel forcing a good or service on people that would have declined without all this pressure?

Leaving aside why (as I asked above) you have to do anything, the method of salesmanship is creating fear (you must be saved) and then selling the remedy (proclaim Jesus as Lord). And it was Paul who said congregations are obliged to pay their pastor/minister/priest (1 Corinthians 9:14).

But lets rephrase the problem a bit: where does the pressure come from?
From Jesus - the salesman - or from the customers who might have set themselves under pressure?

If the customer generates the problem then it's fair to sell them the solution. But when the salesman generates the problem ─ "You're an unsaved sinner and you'll be cast in the lake of fire" or as the threat may be ─ that's snakeoil technique.

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).

If I break the window, then I pay. If the owner says, No, it's fine, then I say, No, you should let me pay. And we go around until one or other concedes.

Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

But the Christian argument is that you don't have to break a window, Adam and Eve broke it for you, and you're a sinner unless you buy my snakeoil. And that argument is a snakeoil argument because it aims to create fear in the audience and then sell them the solution.

 

[thomas t]

That's pretty much being a fireman/arsonist.

actually, Jesus didn't set the fire. He's no arsonist.

The problem is Jesus is the one who is suing you in this metaphor.

I am not sure about this. Could be God the father...
Let's assume you are right: where is the problem? When you steal my pen... and I want to argue about it... I can have it simple saying "I give you the pen, if you eat a chocolate with me"... then I saved you from the guilt of having stolen the pen.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Recently there was a thread with hundreds of objections to the Bible.
I'd like to pick one of them, which is the last one as of today 10:30 am - being able to go into detail with it.

According to the Good News from to the Bible, everyone is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.

Now, I saw my usual converstaion partner from many threads replying:
"That's snakeoil salesmanship ─ You're doomed and only I can save you: all you have to do is kiss my ─ ahm ─ foot. Oh, and pay the man over there."

well, noone has to kiss anything or pay the pastor in order for them to get saved in a Biblical sense... but let's address the heart of the matter, I think it's pressure:

Is the Gospel forcing a good or service on people that would have declined without all this pressure?

Maybe not, I'm neutral here.

But lets rephrase the problem a bit: where does the pressure come from?
From Jesus - the salesman - or from the customers who might have set themselves under pressure?

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

I think it's the former.

Thomas

I don't think your analogy with the window really works.

And in reality, it's not Jesus offering the "good news" that nobody else has; it's some proselytizer. And accepting their offer means joining - and tithing to - their church.

 

[thomas t]

How does proclaiming someone as Lord differ from the metaphorical kissing of the foot?

well it's the same as in a soccer match.
Everyone accepts the referee as being the boss. Noone ever kisses anything in that sport.

Yes, but why is salvation conditional on acceptance and proclaiming Jesus as Lord? Isn't the idea that Jesus died for the sins of everyone? Period?

no, that's the teachings of Universal Reconciliation. There are some who propose it, but dig into the formulation and you'll find there is no scriptural support for that stance. It's presumption, as I see it.

And it was Paul who said congregations are obliged to pay their pastor/minister/priest (1 Corinthians 9:14).

that's not for salvation, though.

But the Christian argument is that you don't have to break a window, Adam and Eve broke it for you,

no that's not how it works. According to the Bible, every one did something wrong on their own account (citing from memory).

That makes no sense.

when we sin, we sin against creation, I think.
You throw litter into the environment? This is the same exact litter that ends up floating in the next river and finally sea birds eat it and can't digest.

So, it's real, I think.

 

[Yahcubs777]

Recently there was a thread with hundreds of objections to the Bible.
I'd like to pick one of them, which is the last one as of today 10:30 am - being able to go into detail with it.

According to the Good News from to the Bible, everyone is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.

Now, I saw my usual converstaion partner from many threads replying:
"That's snakeoil salesmanship ─ You're doomed and only I can save you: all you have to do is kiss my ─ ahm ─ foot. Oh, and pay the man over there."

well, noone has to kiss anything or pay the pastor in order for them to get saved in a Biblical sense... but let's address the heart of the matter, I think it's pressure:

Is the Gospel forcing a good or service on people that would have declined without all this pressure?

Maybe not, I'm neutral here.

But lets rephrase the problem a bit: where does the pressure come from?
From Jesus - the salesman - or from the customers who might have set themselves under pressure?

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

I think it's the former.

Thomas

What you are claiming to be good news is not good news to me. You are saying that the GOD I love, sent HIS Son, to die for my sins. How can you ask me to hear such a horrible story and proclaim it as a good news? Why would I celebrate the death of my only saviour? I can't do that, I love GOD too much for that. And then how can you say that is a righteous judgement? And further, if HE could do that to HIS son which HE loves, then what about me who is not the very Son of GOD? No, this is a horror movie, not a good news.

 

[Audie]

To me Jesus may well have been the "real deal", an entirely sincere and evidently heroic
individual.

Paul, not so much. An exploiter
and a charlatan.

The sayings of Jesus, what are billed as such
anyway, written as verbatim decades later,
not credible.

Nobody knows when or where Jesus
was born or died but we have the finely
detailed Nativity story and of course
death scene, complete with zombies
and earthquake. Where, when? Nobody knows.

It seems so disrespectful and sad that
whatever his really life was is lost under
such a manure pile.

Aside from the aforementioned snake oil
there is the powerful carrot and stick that
Pascal discusses, and for the longest
time the church sponsored the divine right of
kings, and of course, there was torture
here on earth for those who needed more
convincing.

 

[dybmh]

@thomas t :

A broken window is a false comparison, because a broken window is something verifiable. People know that their window is broken.

A proper analogy is a foundation problem which can't be seen.

Then the salesperson shows up and lies about the condition of the foundation.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Recently there was a thread with hundreds of objections to the Bible.
I'd like to pick one of them, which is the last one as of today 10:30 am - being able to go into detail with it.

According to the Good News from to the Bible, everyone is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.

Now, I saw my usual converstaion partner from many threads replying:
"That's snakeoil salesmanship ─ You're doomed and only I can save you: all you have to do is kiss my ─ ahm ─ foot. Oh, and pay the man over there."

well, noone has to kiss anything or pay the pastor in order for them to get saved in a Biblical sense... but let's address the heart of the matter, I think it's pressure:

Is the Gospel forcing a good or service on people that would have declined without all this pressure?

Maybe not, I'm neutral here.

But lets rephrase the problem a bit: where does the pressure come from?
From Jesus - the salesman - or from the customers who might have set themselves under pressure?

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

I think it's the former.

Thomas

My thoughts would be this....

The cake is a lie.

 

[viole]

no. He saves you from not being able to pay your bills. If you accept, of course.

And what about the ones who never met Him, nor heard anything about the Bible?
Are they debts not payed? If no, what does that mean for them? Will they pay for that, for reason outside their control? What have they done to deserve this?

If yes, why does it require acceptance of the payment from us, if payment can be done without explicit acceptance? What have we done to deserve this?

And, more importantly, why does He insist on that? After all, what He payed for us got back in His bank a few days later. So, He did not sacrifice all that much to justify such insistence that we accept Him as Lord, Saviour, or whatever...or else...

Ciao

- viole

 

[Colt]

There was the religion OF Jesus that he lived, taught and preached. Salvation by faith in his Loving, forgiving God and the responsibility that comes with sonship with God.

Christianity is a second hand religion ABOUT Jesus. It drains many an ancient Pagan swamp and baron morass in addition to the red letters attributed to Jesus.

The institutional church and fake shamans that have asserted themselves into Christianity are more the "snake oil salesman". But both the Father and Son can be found there as Jesus has fostered the church as the best exponent of his life's teaching.

 

[Colt]

At the end of the day many people use the shortcomings of religion as an excuse not to find the God of salvation on their own.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

@thomas t :

A broken window is a false comparison, because a broken window is something verifiable. People know that their window is broken.

A proper analogy is a foundation problem which can't be seen.

Then the salesperson shows up and lies about the condition of the foundation.

Yeah, there are a lot of problems with @thomas t 's analogy.

- the person "paying" for the window/foundation is at least in league with the person who owns the window. They may be the same person.

- the "price" to "pay for" the window is your murder. Or, according to some people, your prolonged torture. Regardless, neither murder nor torture does anything to fix a window, so it seems like it's strictly revenge.

- somehow - and this is where the analogy gets even weirder - the person who owns the window designed and created you. He also knew the circumstances that would end up with you breaking the window, and put you in them any way. He was the one who decided how close the ball field should be to his house. He was perfectly capable of putting up a board or a net at just the right time when you were hitting your ball, but he chose not to. He accepts no responsibility at all for what happened.

- the person who "paid" for the window did it by being murdered (notwithstanding the fact that he's now alive anyway - he assures you he was definitely murdered, but he's feeling much better now). You accepting his "payment" for you means sincerely agreeing that his murder was a good thing.

Edit: and of course, none of this is directly coming from either the person with the broken window or the person who "paid" for it. It's all nth-hand stuff from someone who claims that it's all true... not because he heard it from the actual participants, but because he read it in a publication of dubious authorship that he trusts for some reason.

 

[Brickjectivity]

no. He saves you from not being able to pay your bills. If you accept, of course.

I was quoting Romans. Romans is for all. Jesus invites all. That's how I see it.

a good point.
It depends on the telephone conversation and from the way the speaker presents its point.
I am convinced: the the Bible didn't happen by chance without any divine input, and I am also convinced Jesus knew in advance that there would be a situation in which the reader reads Paul's replies not knowing what he was replying to in many cases.

Well Jesus knew that and could have inspired Paul accordingly.
This is at least my stance on the matter.

Lets pursue another option. Maybe its not the message but who is speaking it.

Whether the message is accurate or not is less important than why people listen. If they have "Itching ears" (2tim 4:3) and just want their ears scratched, then it doesn't matter. There's the complexity caused by money in ministry. Money has always had a corrupting influence on ministry, yet we have a lot of paid ministry. Stop paying the prophets, only listen to ones who you know have good lives; and you won't even have to deal with this question about snake oil.

...but ministers have to eat! This does not work. Why don't more ministers speak out about things that make the congregation uncomfortable? It could be they are controlled, subconsciously or not, by income. There are many examples of millennia, of centuries and of decades in which almost every church has tolerated and ignored terrible evils, and before that the canonical prophets complain about false prophets everywhere. Naturally this leads people not to take ministry seriously. I don't, not ever again. They're on the leash of the dollar; and I've seen so much evidence of this.

Supporting references:

• [Mic 3:5 NIV] 5 This is what the LORD says: "As for the prophets who lead my people astray, they proclaim 'peace' if they have something to eat, but prepare to wage war against anyone who refuses to feed them.
• [2Ti 4:3 NIV] 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  
• [Isa 30:10 NIV] 10 They say to the seers, "See no more visions!" and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions.