Is the Good News As Presented in the Bible Snakeoil Salesmanship?

[TagliatelliMonster]

If God would prevent one and every evil deed in the world, there would be no free will left to successfully do something evil.

This is false.

When FBI uncovers a terrorist plot and rounds up the terrorists before they can strike, the free will of the terrorists is not affected at all.

A god, being omnipotent and all, could even wait to intervene until right after the terrorist pushes the button of his bomb, and then contain the explosion to make sure nobody is hurt.

How does this affect free will?
It doesn't.

 

[oldbadger]

I believe every single word of the Bible to be inspired by God.
Even the ones by Paul, who was a good guy, I think.
I think I have a leg to stand on.

That's not quite the same as 'The Word of God'.
Words 'Inspired by God' could possibly have mistakes within, ...... no? yes?

What do you think?

 

[thomas t]

Let me combine a few answers from different posters concerning the same topic:

It is snake oil salesmanship in the sense that it first convinces you that you are "sick" (without evidence, it just declares it, hoping you'll buy it) and then conveniently provides the only cure.

it is supposed to convince you that you have acted against creation.
There is an owner of it. God. If you harmed creation you harmed his property.
No snake oil there.

I have no evidence that I have broken a window, that I have a debt because of it

there is evidence that man harmed nature, though.
As an example.

In fact very few of us had any chance to commit a crime against Jesus,

harming nature is harming his property.

The closest thing that the Bible says about men harming the earth, if I remember correctly, is man ruining the earth.

and Revelation 11:18. It's about destroying the earth.

Your example is an oversimplification because someone isn't just said to be sued for one thing, but a whole host of offenses in the Bible.

yes.
My example was the obvious one.
In my opinion, one and every sin harms creation.
Sometimes, the link is rather difficult to establish, though. One other example: if you install fear by lying to others, for instance, you harm the atmosphere in which people were supposed to feel well, for instance.
A good atmosphere also belongs to creation, I think.

someone is gonna bail us out is the actual unevidenced issue

that's the offer made by the Gospel. To me it makes perfect sense.

and the ones who did never did anything worthy of eternal hell-fire.

maybe.
The thing is: once you've done something wrong and you didn't repent of it, you are expected to maybe do something wrong in your afterlife, too.
Who wants ocean polluters in heaven? The first thing they might do is pollute the oceans there. So they are kept out of heaven, that's at least what I suppose to be the case.

 

[thomas t]

If Jesus is god, then he most certainly set the fire.

no. Jesus did not.
Everyone is punished for their own sins, I think. Unless they plead (the blood of) Jesus, as Christians often say.

Since there is free will: everyone can effectively decide - every day, on every single aspect - if they sin or not.

Concerning your bombing example : If God would prevent every single evil in the world from having any effect... there would be no free wil left to commit a crime that does have effects.

And since that day, all humans are supposedly "guilty" of the crime of being "human".

that's not a crime you can be guilty for.

 

[thomas t]

That's not quite the same as 'The Word of God'.
Words 'Inspired by God' could possibly have mistakes within, ...... no? yes?

What do you think?

no mistakes, in my opinion.
If you want to go ahead and cite some what you call contradiction, can you open up a new thread please?
I personally prefer seperate threads for seperate issues.

 

[blü 2]

Certainly it was not Jesus's idea to die at all.

The idea that Jesus was on a suicide mission and went to his death instead of escaping is found in all the gospels ─ Mark 2:20, Mark 14:33-36, Matthew 26:18, Matthew 26:37-39, Luke 22:22, Luke 22:42, John 17:5, John 17:11, John 17:13.

 

[Samael_Khan]

and Revelation 11:18. It's about destroying the earth.

yes.
My example was the obvious one.
In my opinion, one and every sin harms creation.
Sometimes, the link is rather difficult to establish, though. One other example: if you install fear by lying to others, for instance, you harm the atmosphere in which people were supposed to feel well, for instance.
A good atmosphere also belongs to creation, I think.

that's the offer made by the Gospel. To me it makes perfect sense.

This brings to mind the verse of "all creation groaning for the redemption of the saints" or something like that. I am paraphrasing. I do think that the Bible has the concept of sin affecting the whole earth, since humanity is its caretaker and the world became corrupted. Also all animals are in fear of humans after the flood because man was then allowed to eat animals as opposed to just vegetation. So sin lead to man shedding blood on the earth, the corruption of the earth and the fear in animals. Therefore earth is contaminated.

There is also a line of reasoning that sin caused entropy (death is a result of decay which is caused by entropy apparently. If Adam and Eve were immortal did entropy not effect them maybe?). So everything descends into chaos given enough time, meaning that everything decays and comes to an end. The new heavens and earth is when entropy stops. A Christian friend and I were discussing this earlier in the week and it was an interesting thought.

So I do see your point then with sin leading to creations demise. Would humans classify as part of creation in this sense? If so then yes sin would affect creation.

The offer in the Bible might make circumstantial sense. A lot of religions do as they represent various possible scenarios. My question is why does it make sense for me to believe those things if there is no sufficient evidence for them?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

it is supposed to convince you that you have acted against creation.
There is an owner of it. God. If you harmed creation you harmed his property.
No snake oil there.

It's snake oil. You just confirmed it.
There's no need for a "saviour" if one doesn't need "saving".
And it's the religion itself that declares you need saving.

So, it's exactly like I said.
First it claims that you are "broken" and then conveniently provides the "only" fix.

 

[thomas t]

The idea that Jesus was on a suicide mission and went to his death instead of escaping is found in all the gospels ─ Mark 2:20, Mark 14:33-36, Matthew 26:18, Matthew 26:37-39, Luke 22:22, Luke 22:42, John 17:5, John 17:11, John 17:13.

suicide is killing oneself.

Jesus committed suicide inasmuch as the soldiers on D day did or did not commit suicide.

 

[thomas t]

It's snake oil. You just confirmed it.
There's no need for a "saviour" if one doesn't need "saving".
And it's the religion itself that declares you need saving.

So, it's exactly like I said.
First it claims that you are "broken" and then conveniently provides the "only" fix.

but you need saving, as I see it.
If you don't pay your bills for the damage against creation that you've caused, who is supposed to let you enter heaven then?
I mean everyone caused damage against creation, according to the Bible, as I see it.

No snake oil there. I didn't confirm anything in this sense, of course.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

no. Jesus did not.
Everyone is punished for their own sins, I think.

Nope.

Everyone, instead, is punished for the crime of an ancestor (that never even existed, but let's set that aside for now).

It's the whole idea of the fall / original sin.
It's the whole reason why supposedly a "saviour" is needed.

God didn't have to curse all of mankind for the supposed transgression of 2 of them. But he did.

Since there is free will: everyone can effectively decide - every day, on every single aspect - if they sin or not.

This is false and counter christian theology.
You can live a perfect life and still you'ld be cursed because as a human you "inherit" sin from long dead ancestors.

Concerning your bombing example : If God would prevent every single evil in the world from having any effect... there would be no free wil left to commit a crime that does have effects.

So would you say that a group of terrorists that get rounded up before they have a chance to put their plan into action, should be set free no questions asked?

If your answer is "no", then you just contradicted yourself.

that's not a crime you can be guilty for.

The fall / original sin, says otherwise.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

but you need saving, as I see it.

Why? For what? From what?

If you don't pay your bills for the damage against creation that you've caused,

What damage?

who is supposed to let you enter heaven then?

What heaven?

I mean everyone caused damage against creation, according to the Bible, as I see it.

Yes, according to the bible.

You are once again simply confirming what I said.
It is the BIBLE that makes this claim. And then it is the BIBLE that conveniently provides the only supposed "fix".

Typical snake oil / dishonest salesman.

No snake oil there. I didn't confirm anything in this sense, of course.

It's an imaginary fix to an imaginary problem.

That's snake oil.

 

[oldbadger]

no mistakes, in my opinion.
If you want to go ahead and cite some what you call contradiction, can you open up a new thread please?
I personally prefer seperate threads for seperate issues.

Of course..... no contradictions debate here. Absolutely.

So it looks as if you do believe that Jesus is God, and that Jesus guided the pens of all the bible authors, I think I can perceive that.
Which means that Jesus created the heavens and Earth, it was he who made Adam and Eve, he who guided the Israelites out of Egypt, he himself who wrote the laws of Moses and he himself who guided the pens of the apostles, and the words and actions of Paul and all the apostles........ Have got that right?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

suicide is killing oneself.

Jesus committed suicide inasmuch as the soldiers on D day did or did not commit suicide.

Soldiers on D-day were hoping to survive.
Jesus, according to the story, did not come to survive. He came to die, to be killed.

It's the same concept as the "suicide by cop".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

1) the price was (the reward) for the service of having himself murdered. Other people get paid for having themselves photographed. Taking the picture was not what is paid (by the model). It's the other was round: the model get's paid.
Jesus had himself murdered. I'm sure God paid him for his services.
Murder is not a good thing like taking a photo usually is, though.
Murdering Jesus was not good. However, Jesus's message to the Pharisees was "kill me if you must" and having himself killed by man was his service.

Sorry - I really can't follow what you're saying here.

Concerning your second point:
If God would prevent one and every evil deed in the world, there would be no free will left to successfully do something evil.

But I'm not talking about the deeds; I'm talking about the effects.

To use your window analogy: if I, say, hit a baseball through someone's window, the choice to hit the ball was mine, but the effect of breaking the window is dependent on lots of things outside my control. If the owner of the house had put a board or a net up to protect the windows, it wouldn't interfere with my free will at all. Same if someone had foreseen the problem and put the ball field farther from the houses.

Also, what we can will and what we can do are different things. If I try to break my neighbour's window using only telekinesis, I won't actually do it. Does this mean my free will has been curtailed?

 

[blü 2]

suicide is killing oneself.

Indeed. Jesus put himself in harm's way, and when escape was available, refused to take it.

Armed services personnel go into harms way in a manner they've been trained for and to accomplish defined purposes.

No one has ever given me a coherent reason why Jesus' death was necessary, or what it accomplished in reality. An all-powerful God doesn't need a sacrifice to [him]self to accomplish whatever it was [he] wished to achieve.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Recently there was a thread with hundreds of objections to the Bible.
I'd like to pick one of them, which is the last one as of today 10:30 am - being able to go into detail with it.

According to the Good News from to the Bible, everyone is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.

Now, I saw my usual converstaion partner from many threads replying:
"That's snakeoil salesmanship ─ You're doomed and only I can save you: all you have to do is kiss my ─ ahm ─ foot. Oh, and pay the man over there."

well, noone has to kiss anything or pay the pastor in order for them to get saved in a Biblical sense... but let's address the heart of the matter, I think it's pressure:

Is the Gospel forcing a good or service on people that would have declined without all this pressure?

Maybe not, I'm neutral here.

But lets rephrase the problem a bit: where does the pressure come from?
From Jesus - the salesman - or from the customers who might have set themselves under pressure?

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

I think it's the former.

Thomas

Here's what it is:

Salvation is only a free gift for the recipient. Jesus paid for the gift, just as if Jesus bought me a meal when I was hungry.

All I have to do is trust Jesus, per the Bible, to receive a free gift today, that is assured, eternal. All Jesus had to do to pay for the gift is die a torturous death on the cross for my sin, guilt, shame, punishment--and then rise from the dead.

 

[thomas t]

Have got that right?

right .
Moving on to the next conversation parnter...

Everyone, instead, is punished for the crime of an ancestor (that never even existed, but let's set that aside for now).

no, not according to the Bible. One gets punished for own actions.

This is neither false nor counter christian theology (if it's biblical).
Bible plainly says: And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done Revelation 20:12b.
If a theology claims otherwise, it is wrong and man-made.
Only Bible is true.
Bible only please.

So, being cursed, in contrast, is not what you are punished for.

You can live a perfect life

according to the Bible noone actually reaches that point, Bible predicts your scenario to not come true. This is at least my understanding of scriptures.

So would you say that a group of terrorists that get rounded up before they have a chance to put their plan into action, should be set free no questions asked?

no, the FBI also has free will.
This does not contradict anything I said before.
There is a difference between the FBI trying to prevent certain things... and God (hypothetically) making sure that one and every crime is nullified in the beginning

The fall / original sin, says otherwise.

according to you.

You are once again simply confirming what I said.
It is the BIBLE that makes this claim. And then it is the BIBLE that conveniently provides the only supposed "fix".

Typical snake oil / dishonest salesman.

It's an imaginary fix to an imaginary problem.

That's snake oil.

What damage?

everyone knows that man is trying to destroy the planet.
Look at this:

This is real. This is no imaginary problem. No snakeoil there.
The planet belongs to someone. So, man is guilty.

 

[oldbadger]

@thomas t ......
I think that you must have missed my reasonable questions.......
Please may I show them again? I wrote:-

Of course..... no 'contradictions debate' here. Absolutely.

So it looks as if you do believe that Jesus is God, and that Jesus guided the pens of all the bible authors, I think I can perceive that.
Which means that Jesus created the heavens and Earth, it was he who made Adam and Eve, he who guided the Israelites out of Egypt, he himself who wrote the laws of Moses and he himself who guided the pens of the apostles, and the words and actions of Paul and all the apostles........ Have got that right?

Have I got that right, Thomas?

 

[thomas t]

It's the same concept as the "suicide by cop".

It's rather suicide by the enemy, in this case.

Jesus put himself in harm's way

victim blaming.

Armed services personnel go into harms way in a manner they've been trained for and to accomplish defined purposes.

exactly - just the way Jesus was trained also.

No one has ever given me a coherent reason why Jesus' death was necessary, or what it accomplished in reality. An all-powerful God doesn't need a sacrifice to [him]self to accomplish whatever it was [he] wished to achieve.

God is as powerful as it can get.
God cannot create the square triangle. Now that he's set up the rule that triangles have three corners, he cannot.
God cannot spend comfort to all Christian martyrs the way people do in an armchair diagnosis.
But Jesus telling everyone; "I was the first getting slaughtered" he is there to comfort everyone getting killed for the sake of the Good News as summarized by @BilliardsBall just 2 posts above this one.