Is the Good News As Presented in the Bible Snakeoil Salesmanship?

[Samael_Khan]

when we sin, we sin against creation, I think.
You throw litter into the environment? This is the same exact litter that ends up floating in the next river and finally sea birds eat it and can't digest.

So, it's real, I think.

You have to go with each claim on a case by case basis on this one. Maybe I did litter, but did I break the window? If I didn't break the window then why does anybody need to bail me out?

 

[cataway]

Recently there was a thread with hundreds of objections to the Bible.
I'd like to pick one of them, which is the last one as of today 10:30 am - being able to go into detail with it.

According to the Good News from to the Bible, everyone is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.

Now, I saw my usual converstaion partner from many threads replying:
"That's snakeoil salesmanship ─ You're doomed and only I can save you: all you have to do is kiss my ─ ahm ─ foot. Oh, and pay the man over there."

well, noone has to kiss anything or pay the pastor in order for them to get saved in a Biblical sense... but let's address the heart of the matter, I think it's pressure:

Is the Gospel forcing a good or service on people that would have declined without all this pressure?

Maybe not, I'm neutral here.

But lets rephrase the problem a bit: where does the pressure come from?
From Jesus - the salesman - or from the customers who might have set themselves under pressure?

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

I think it's the former.

Thomas

saved from .......what ?

 

[shunyadragon]

Featured: Is the Good News As Presented in the Bible Snake oil Salesmanship?

The Bible in and of itself represents two ancient cultural tribal worldviews Judaism and Christianity. Good News as presented today is based on 'Snake Oil salesmanship.' It appeals to guilt, fear, and a 'dependent sense of identity.'

Clinging to ancient religions and world views when they have little in relevance to the contemporary world other than some general good teachings and principles found in all major religions leads to conflict, wars, and separation from the universal. Ancient scriptures also contain many beliefs and principles no longer considered moral and ethical in recent history like tribal rivalry and superiority, slavery and ethnic cleansing.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Recently there was a thread with hundreds of objections to the Bible.
I'd like to pick one of them, which is the last one as of today 10:30 am - being able to go into detail with it.

According to the Good News from to the Bible, everyone is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.

Now, I saw my usual converstaion partner from many threads replying:
"That's snakeoil salesmanship ─ You're doomed and only I can save you: all you have to do is kiss my ─ ahm ─ foot. Oh, and pay the man over there."

well, noone has to kiss anything or pay the pastor in order for them to get saved in a Biblical sense... but let's address the heart of the matter, I think it's pressure:

Is the Gospel forcing a good or service on people that would have declined without all this pressure?

Maybe not, I'm neutral here.

But lets rephrase the problem a bit: where does the pressure come from?
From Jesus - the salesman - or from the customers who might have set themselves under pressure?

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

I think it's the former.

Thomas

I think being saved is grossly misunderstood. In this world, when you obey the teachings of God you commit less sin. In that sense you are saved from committing less sin. But without obedience, just in belief alone, in ones mind, that is like a tree without fruit. Even then, we just don’t know how God will judge us.

The ‘saved’ that Christians speak of, I understand to be a myth, for nobody can know for sure if he or she has won the Good Pleasure of God until they pass into the next life. There are no guarantees.

People can assume but never know and I believe it is a grave error to arrogantly believe one has ‘done enough’. We can only humbly do our best here and hope God will accept it.

But nobody can second guess how God will judge our lives.

 

[Clara Tea]

Recently there was a thread with hundreds of objections to the Bible.
I'd like to pick one of them, which is the last one as of today 10:30 am - being able to go into detail with it.

According to the Good News from to the Bible, everyone is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.

Now, I saw my usual converstaion partner from many threads replying:
"That's snakeoil salesmanship ─ You're doomed and only I can save you: all you have to do is kiss my ─ ahm ─ foot. Oh, and pay the man over there."

well, noone has to kiss anything or pay the pastor in order for them to get saved in a Biblical sense... but let's address the heart of the matter, I think it's pressure:

Is the Gospel forcing a good or service on people that would have declined without all this pressure?

Maybe not, I'm neutral here.

But lets rephrase the problem a bit: where does the pressure come from?
From Jesus - the salesman - or from the customers who might have set themselves under pressure?

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

I think it's the former.

Thomas

Jesus giving something (redemption for original and other sins) for nothing seems like a good deal. But, there is no proof that God exists, and no proof that Jesus took everyone sins away by dying for them.

Certainly it was not Jesus's idea to die at all. Jesus asked God "why hath thou forsaken me?" Does that seem like Jesus was willing to die?

If God is good, why doesn't God help those dying of cancer? Why did God make a world of pooping beings and creatures? Why not have creatures fart perfume? Instead of Baptisms, they could be farted on.

Some cultures have been pressured by fear.

Father Junipero Serra scared Indians into building his missions, and literally enslaved them. Some were beaten and some were killed.

It wasn't a kind offer that enslaved the Indians, it was fear and threats.

 

[thomas t]

I maintin that all of what is written in the Gospel is truth...

@thomas t :

A broken window is a false comparison, because a broken window is something verifiable. People know that their window is broken.

A proper analogy is a foundation problem which can't be seen.

Then the salesperson shows up and lies about the condition of the foundation.

here I maintin that the damage that man produces on earth is verifiable.


Hungry children in deserts that wouldn't have been deserts without man made climate change.
Extinction of species, when man does not care about nature.
The waste found in (upon) the oceans...
I could go on with my list.
For the sake of brevity, I'll leave it here.

let me move on to Israel's post, who is writing in the same direction...

You have to go with each claim on a case by case basis on this one. Maybe I did litter, but did I break the window? If I didn't break the window then why does anybody need to bail me out?

Yes, case by case, I'm convinced Jesus will proceed like that.

If you littered and a seabird mistakes it as food, they eat it and maybe die starving... their stomach being filled.
That's one of the many problems with plastic waste spread all around the oceans.

Now, in the Christian understanding.... the creation belongs to someone. It's all God's.

saved from .......what ?

all these places in the Bible that are not life. They are called darkness and so on. You know that. You are not going to drag me into a debate in which you could spread some JW talking points , such as does hell really exist and so on...

 

[thomas t]

Clinging to ancient religions and world views when they have little in relevance to the contemporary world other than some general good teachings and principles found in all major religions leads to conflict, wars, and separation from the universal.

I cling to Christianity and no... I am not going to let you blame me for conflict, wars and seperation from God. That's ridicuous.

 

[thomas t]

- the "price" to "pay for" the window is your murder. Or, according to some people, your prolonged torture. Regardless, neither murder nor torture does anything to fix a window, so it seems like it's strictly revenge.

no, that was not the price.

He also knew the circumstances that would end up with you breaking the window, and put you in them any way. He was the one who decided how close the ball field should be to his house. He was perfectly capable of putting up a board or a net at just the right time when you were hitting your ball, but he chose not to. He accepts no responsibility at all for what happened.

free will.
The creation has free will for everybody.

You accepting his "payment" for you means sincerely agreeing that his murder was a good thing.

ah no. Here I disagree strongly.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

no, that was not the price.

What was the price, then?

free will.
The creation has free will for everybody.

What does that have to do with anything?

ah no. Here I disagree strongly.

What's your position then, and why?

 

[PureX]

It all depends on how one interprets the message and promise of Christ. I interpret it to say that if I am willing to embody the divine spirit of God's love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity within me, it will heal me and save me from myself. And it will help me to help others to be healed as well. And when enough of we humans decide to do this, the whole world will be healed and saved from us.

This message makes sense to me, and the promises sound reasonable, too. So I am trying. And to the extent that I am able to do so, I find that the promises are true.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News). Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

That analogy doesn't fit the religious situation. I have no evidence that I have broken a window, that I have a debt because of it, or that there is any validity to this lawsuit. Nobody need pay any debt on my behalf, and if they claim they have, I still have no unpaid debt here.

This is a story intended to make me feel that I am indebted to an unseen god for an unseen act allegedly treating an unseen problem for I should be grateful and submit to the words of those speaking for this god.

The pressure is in the threat to lose everything for all time if one doesn't believe it and submit to its requirements, but there's no pressure at all if one doesn't buy into this story.

Incidentally, I don't consider the Bible good news. You say that our universe contains a torture pit staffed with demons for the sole purpose of gratuitously torture souls kept conscious just to suffer for no benefit, and everybody who doesn't guess correctly based on the bad evidence in the Bible and despite the bad behavior of the church will suffer eternally, and this is most lives that have ever been lived. If this story were correct, then we must conclude that we were born into pretty much the worse universe possible in which most sous will end up regretting they were ever created. This is not good news. I'd prefer a godless universe to that.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Recently there was a thread with hundreds of objections to the Bible.
I'd like to pick one of them, which is the last one as of today 10:30 am - being able to go into detail with it.

According to the Good News from to the Bible, everyone is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.

Now, I saw my usual converstaion partner from many threads replying:
"That's snakeoil salesmanship ─ You're doomed and only I can save you: all you have to do is kiss my ─ ahm ─ foot. Oh, and pay the man over there."

well, noone has to kiss anything or pay the pastor in order for them to get saved in a Biblical sense... but let's address the heart of the matter, I think it's pressure:

Is the Gospel forcing a good or service on people that would have declined without all this pressure?

Maybe not, I'm neutral here.

But lets rephrase the problem a bit: where does the pressure come from?
From Jesus - the salesman - or from the customers who might have set themselves under pressure?

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

I think it's the former.

Thomas

It is snake oil salesmanship in the sense that it first convinces you that you are "sick" (without evidence, it just declares it, hoping you'll buy it) and then conveniently provides the only cure.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

actually, Jesus didn't set the fire. He's no arsonist.

If Jesus is god, then he most certainly set the fire.
It's god, in the story, that dooms all of mankind for the "crime" of a long dead ancestor.

And since that day, all humans are supposedly "guilty" of the crime of being "human".

 

[blü 2]

well it's the same as in a soccer match.
Everyone accepts the referee as being the boss. Noone ever kisses anything in that sport.

And every game has a different referee, even within the one school, suburb, town, state, nation. And his or her authority stops at full time. We have (or are) bosses at the workplace too ─ same thing.

no, that's the teachings of Universal Reconciliation. There are some who propose it, but dig into the formulation and you'll find there is no scriptural support for that stance. It's presumption, as I see it.

What's the hoo-ha about original sin, then? Why don't Christians just abandon that nonsense and go by Ezekiel 18:20?

no that's not how it works. According to the Bible, every one did something wrong on their own account (citing from memory).

But when you do something seriously wrong, and you're not a sociopath, then you fix it if you can or if you can't bear to face up to it, you carry it like a load of bricks. No lake of fire needed.

when we sin, we sin against creation, I think.

Depends on the sin. But I think we're slowly getting better ─ about the environment, about BLM, about social equality ─ though I was appalled to see the raise to a minimum $15 an hour knocked back. Are we getting better fast enough? Not really, but that's not new.,

 

[danieldemol]

I am not sure about this. Could be God the father...

If you are a trinitarian they are one.

Let's assume you are right: where is the problem? When you steal my pen... and I want to argue about it... I can have it simple saying "I give you the pen, if you eat a chocolate with me"... then I saved you from the guilt of having stolen the pen.

The problem is, neither have I stolen Jesus pen, nor have I broken Jesus window.

In fact very few of us had any chance to commit a crime against Jesus, and the ones who did never did anything worthy of eternal hell-fire.

 

[Samael_Khan]

let me move on to Israel's post, who is writing in the same direction...

Yes, case by case, I'm convinced Jesus will proceed like that.

If you littered and a seabird mistakes it as food, they eat it and maybe die starving... their stomach being filled.
That's one of the many problems with plastic waste spread all around the oceans.

Now, in the Christian understanding.... the creation belongs to someone. It's all God's.

Everything else is based off of that. Your example is an oversimplification because someone isn't just said to be sued for one thing, but a whole host of offenses in the Bible. The closest thing that the Bible says about men harming the earth, if I remember correctly, is man ruining the earth. From what I understand about the meaning of ruining the earth is man causing bloodshed on the earth as it is used in the flood story. I don't recall littering ever mentioned so I wouldn't want to spend time discussing an anachronistic point.

So my original post on this thread addressed that the idea that we are being sued and someone is gonna bail us out is the actual unevidenced issue. That is the actual issue. The person claiming these things, the Bible Writer and Christians, are trying to make us feel guilty, sometimes for good cause and sometimes for an outdated cause. But how they make us feel guilty is the problem because they claim things and expect us to believe.

 

[oldbadger]

Recently there was a thread with hundreds of objections to the Bible.
I'd like to pick one of them, which is the last one as of today 10:30 am - being able to go into detail with it.

According to the Good News from to the Bible, everyone is saved once they accept and proclaim Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.

Now, I saw my usual converstaion partner from many threads replying:
"That's snakeoil salesmanship ─ You're doomed and only I can save you: all you have to do is kiss my ─ ahm ─ foot. Oh, and pay the man over there."

well, noone has to kiss anything or pay the pastor in order for them to get saved in a Biblical sense... but let's address the heart of the matter, I think it's pressure:

Is the Gospel forcing a good or service on people that would have declined without all this pressure?

Maybe not, I'm neutral here.

But lets rephrase the problem a bit: where does the pressure come from?
From Jesus - the salesman - or from the customers who might have set themselves under pressure?

Let me compare it to having destroyed a window of a house, and you're getting sued you for it. Meanwhile, Jesus is offering to pay the bill for you (the Good News).
Now, where does the pressure come from? From the fact of having broken a window, or from Jesus willing to pay the bill and settle the issue?

I think it's the former.

Thomas

Your conversation partner does have a point.
Firstly, before I can offer any suggestions at all, can you please tell me whether or not you believe that every letter, book and word in the bible is the word of God?

If your answer is 'yes' then you haven't got a leg to stand on imo. If 'No' then we could review your CPs viewpoints.

 

[oldbadger]

If you are a trinitarian they are one.

The problem is, neither have I stolen Jesus pen, nor have I broken Jesus window.

In fact very few of us had any chance to commit a crime against Jesus, and the ones who did never did anything worthy of eternal hell-fire.

If you believe in Jesus Christ AND happen to belong to the right church then you'll be ok.
But.... wrong faith with wrong church and you are toast, mate. Frazzled eternally. Never ending pain. And you thought that the Romans' crucifixion was a good deterrent, eh? Nah!

! John {2:22} Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

 

[thomas t]

What was the price, then?


What does that have to do with anything?


What's your position then, and why?

1) the price was (the reward) for the service of having himself murdered. Other people get paid for having themselves photographed. Taking the picture was not what is paid (by the model). It's the other was round: the model get's paid.
Jesus had himself murdered. I'm sure God paid him for his services.
Murder is not a good thing like taking a photo usually is, though.
Murdering Jesus was not good. However, Jesus's message to the Pharisees was "kill me if you must" and having himself killed by man was his service.

Concerning your second point:
If God would prevent one and every evil deed in the world, there would be no free will left to successfully do something evil.

 

[thomas t]

Paul [...] An exploiter
and a charlatan.

Firstly, before I can offer any suggestions at all, can you please tell me whether or not you believe that every letter, book and word in the bible is the word of God?

If your answer is 'yes' then you haven't got a leg to stand on imo.

I believe every single word of the Bible to be inspired by God.
Even the ones by Paul, who was a good guy, I think.
I think I have a leg to stand on.