Is the Kingdom of God earthly or heavenly?

[Pegg]

Christians are taught to pray for Gods kingdom to come in the 'Lords Prayer'
'Let your kingdom come, let your will take place on earth, as it is in heaven'

this kingdom that Jesus taught us to pray about is either a heavenly kingdom, meaning it is going to be located in heaven, or it is going to be an earthly kingdom located somewhere on earth.

Many christians believe it will be on earth (likely in Jerusalem) and that it will exist as a physical government with Jesus as its ruler (the jews believe it will be in Jerusalem with the Messiah as it ruler)

There are several ways to determine where the kingdom will be located. Firstly, Where is Jesus himself located? He was put to death and then he was resurrected and he ascended to heaven. Acts 2:33 "Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God." We could look at it that way and conclude that Jesus will rule from his heavenly position because that is the glory he has been awarded with. If he had to live on earth as a human again, it would take away his 'glorification' for him to return to human form.
Philipians 2:9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name

We can also see how the apostles viewed the kingdom...they viewed it as heavenly kingdom. 2 Timothy 4:18 "The Lord will deliver me from every wicked work and will save [me] for his heavenly kingdom..."
And Jesus himself spoke of glorifying his apostles by giving them a position in that heavenly kingdom where they will be able to witness Jesus glorification.
John 17:24"Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me"

And finally consider this, Satan the devil is said to be the ruler of the world right now....yet he doesnt have a physical office or a physical government. He is still a spirit who exists in the spirit world in 'heavenly places' and he exerts great influence on the world of mankind and does with them what he wants.
This makes it entirely plausible that Christ can also rule in such a fashion. He does not need to be here on earth physically to rule just as God did not need to set up an office in the garden of Eden in order to rule Adam and Eve. God ruled from heaven and so will Jesus.
True believers do not need his physical presence to follow him or to submit to his rulership.

 

[james2ko]

There are several ways to determine where the kingdom will be located. Firstly, Where is Jesus himself located? He was put to death and then he was resurrected and he ascended to heaven. Acts 2:33 "Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God." We could look at it that way and conclude that Jesus will rule from his heavenly position because that is the glory he has been awarded with.

Scripture indicates he will return to establish His throne and kingdom on earth not up in heaven. (Zec 14:4,9; Isa 2:3; Joel 3:16-18; Zec 8:20; Mic 4:1-2; Jer 3:17; Psa 2:8, 22:27-28; Psa 72:11, 86:9, 89:27; Rev 11:15)

Philipians 2:9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] nameIf he had to live on earth as a human again, it would take away his 'glorification' for him to return to human form.

He will not return as a physical human although He may certainly manifest himself as one. He will return to rule the earth in the same glorified state He appeared to the disciples (Act 1:11) and the resurrected saints will return with Him (Zec 14:5; Jud 1:14-15; 1Th 3:13) in the same form (Ps 17:15; Isa 26:19; 1 Jn 3:2; 1Co 15:49; Php 3:21)

We can also see how the apostles viewed the kingdom...they viewed it as heavenly kingdom. 2 Timothy 4:18 "The Lord will deliver me from every wicked work and will save [me] for his heavenly kingdom..."
And Jesus himself spoke of glorifying his apostles by giving them a position in that heavenly kingdom where they will be able to witness Jesus glorification.
John 17:24"Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me"

Upon Jesus' visible return, descension and subsequent resurrection of the saints, the saints and apostles will be given positions of rulership in His earthly kingdom (Dan 7:18,22,27; Ps 45:16; Oba 1:21; Isa 32:1; Mat 19:28; Rev 5:10; 20:6)

And finally consider this, Satan the devil is said to be the ruler of the world right now....yet he doesnt have a physical office or a physical government. He is still a spirit who exists in the spirit world in 'heavenly places' and he exerts great influence on the world of mankind and does with them what he wants.

God is in complete control. Satan and his demons can only do what God allows (Job 1:12; 2:6; Luk 8:32; 1 Ki 22:19:23)

This makes it entirely plausible that Christ can also rule in such a fashion. He does not need to be here on earth physically to rule just as God did not need to set up an office in the garden of Eden in order to rule Adam and Eve. God ruled from heaven and so will Jesus. True believers do not need his physical presence to follow him or to submit to his rulership.

He certainly does not need to be here on earth to rule but as scripture plainly indicates, He will.

 

[Beta]

There are many scriptures speaking of Christ's return ....and every eye shall see him.
Also why would Jesus resurrect in Body if it was of no further purpose for future rulership ? Was he not born to be King and up to present he has not fulfilled that role.
i believe that scripture indicates a physical presence for at least a period of time until human salvation has been accomplished by and through Jesus.
Rev.21 seems quite explicit about God Himself setting up his Tabernacle on this earth which could then exist in spiritual presence only seeing GOD IS Spirit.

 

[blackout]

For lack of better terminology,
The Kingdom of God/Heaven
is a Vibrational State of Being.
So it really doesn't matter where you are...
there it is
in the Midst of You.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There are many scriptures speaking of Christ's return ....and every eye shall see him.
Also why would Jesus resurrect in Body if it was of no further purpose for future rulership ? Was he not born to be King and up to present he has not fulfilled that role.
i believe that scripture indicates a physical presence for at least a period of time until human salvation has been accomplished by and through Jesus.
Rev.21 seems quite explicit about God Himself setting up his Tabernacle on this earth which could then exist in spiritual presence only seeing GOD IS Spirit.

Don't we also see things with our mind's eye?

Earthly Jerusalem was the seat of government on earth.
Heavenly Jerusalem is located in heaven. -Gal 4v26
But, its rich blessings will be showered down upon earth.
Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18; Rev 22v2

Jesus was Not resurrected in a physical 'Body' but in the invisible spirit realm.
Isn't that why Jesus used materialized bodies to appear to his followers after his resurrection before he ascended to heaven?

Isn't John 14v19 plain:
Yet a little while, and the world would see Jesus No more?

So the world of mankind will see Jesus No more, but will see or discern the effects of his 'glory' .-Matthew 25vs31,32; Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19vs11,14,15

 

[Pegg]

Scripture indicates he will return to establish His throne and kingdom on earth not up in heaven. (Zec 14:4,9; Isa 2:3; Joel 3:16-18; Zec 8:20; Mic 4:1-2; Jer 3:17; Psa 2:8, 22:27-28; Psa 72:11, 86:9, 89:27; Rev 11:15)

Yes he will return in as far as his rulership will have direct and lasting consequences for the earth, yes. The verses you posted all speak about such a rulership but none of them specifically state that it will literally be established on earth. Take Revelation for example....
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”
What is the 'kingdom of the world'?
There is not only 1 kingdom on earth...there are many such kingdoms existing on our divided earth. So its obviously not literal.

He will not return as a physical human although He may certainly manifest himself as one. He will return to rule the earth in the same glorified state He appeared to the disciples (Act 1:11) and the resurrected saints will return with Him (Zec 14:5; Jud 1:14-15; 1Th 3:13) in the same form (Ps 17:15; Isa 26:19; 1 Jn 3:2; 1Co 15:49; Php 3:21)

We cannot see spirits...thats why they are called 'spirits', they are like the wind...something we cannot see. So even if Jesus returns as a spirit, no one is going to see him.

 

[Beta]

We cannot see spirits...thats why they are called 'spirits', they are like the wind...something we cannot see. So even if Jesus returns as a spirit, no one is going to see him.

Humans - especially unconverted Humans do not have the ability to even perceive true Spirit and are in need of the physical example and presence of Christ. That is why he will be able to appear in both states as necessary for the work ahead of him ie. correcting the nations .
Let us not forget he resurrected in the body he had before his death and was recognized by afterwards. I do believe this is significant for his future earthly rulership during his 1000 year reign 1Cor.15v25-28.

 

[james2ko]

Yes he will return in as far as his rulership will have direct and lasting consequences for the earth, yes. The verses you posted all speak about such a rulership but none of them specifically state that it will literally be established on earth.

I'm not so sure Pegg..Scripture seems undeniably clear on this one:

Zec 14:4. 9 And in that day His [Christ] feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. "9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be "The LORD is one," And His name one.


Jer 3:17 "At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.

Psa 2:6-8 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion." " 7 I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.

Amo 1:2 And he said: "The LORD roars from Zion, And utters His voice from Jerusalem; The pastures of the shepherds mourn, And the top of Carmel withers."

]Psa 102:15-16 So the nations shall fear the name of the LORD, And all the kings of the earth Your glory. 16 For the LORD shall build up Zion; He shall appear in His glory.

Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

Isa 27:13 So it shall be in that day: The great trumpet will be blown; They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria, And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt, And shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Isa 2:3 Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Joe 3:16-18 The LORD also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; But the LORD will be a shelter for His people, And the strength of the children of Israel. 17 "So you shall know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain. Then Jerusalem shall be holy, And no aliens shall ever pass through her again." 18 And it will come to pass in that day That the mountains shall drip with new wine, The hills shall flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water; A fountain shall flow from the house of the LORD And water the Valley of Acacias.

Zec 8:20 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Peoples shall yet come, Inhabitants of many cities; 21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, "Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD, And seek the LORD of hosts. I myself will go also." 22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, And to pray before the LORD.'

Mic 4:1-2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the LORD's house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And peoples shall flow to it. 2 Many nations shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Zec 14:16-17 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

Psa 72:11 Yes, all kings shall fall down before Him; All nations shall serve Him.

Psa 86:9 All nations whom You have made Shall come and worship before You, O Lord, And shall glorify Your name.
​

Take Revelation for example....Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” What is the 'kingdom of the world'? There is not only 1 kingdom on earth...there are many such kingdoms existing on our divided earth. So its obviously not literal.

This is a heavenly announcement proclaiming Christ's literal collective take over of the governments of this world ending mankind's rule over himself. Other scriptures fill in the gaps describing where He will set up His earthly dwelling and throne---Jerusalem.

We cannot see spirits...thats why they are called 'spirits', they are like the wind...something we cannot see. So even if Jesus returns as a spirit, no one is going to see him.

Jesus appeared to many, after His resurrection. A spirit being will have the perogative to manifest themselves as a physical human being. Remember when Jesus suddenly appeared and startled the disciples? He even ate some fish and honeycomb in their presence (Luke 24:36-43). This wasn't the first meal Christ had in His glorified state (Gen 18). We also read throughout scripture how angels, which are composed of spirit, have the ability to manifest themselves as fleshly humans and be able to grab the hands of other humans(Gen 19:16). Scripture indicates Christ and the resurrected saints will have these same abilities. The disciples "saw" Jesus ascend into heaven. Jesus Himself said those humans alive, at the time, will see Him return in like manner :

Act 1:11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Mar 13:26* Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory,

Rev 1:7* Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
​

 

[Vansdad]

Luke 17:21 (King James Version)


21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[Beta]

Luke 17:21 (King James Version)


21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

This may well have been the case 2000 years ago.
God and Christ work in PROGRESSIVE stages to move Creation foreward. Scripture is quite obviously implying a beginning and an end of things. You might like to give this some more thought ?

 

[Pegg]

I'm not so sure Pegg..Scripture seems undeniably clear on this one:

Zec 14:4. 9 And in that day His [Christ] feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. "9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be "The LORD is one," And His name one.​

and how can this verse be literal? A person cannot stand on a mountain with one foot on one side of the valley and the other foot on the other side.
They will have to be some mighty long legs he's standing on.

Jer 3:17 "At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.

How can this be taken literally? How can 6billion people gather together in Jerusalem?

Psa 2:6-8 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion." " 7 I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.

You should realise that the significance of Zion was that it symbolized Gods dwelling. It was originally the mountain that David had the sacred Ark brought. Thats what made it a holy mountain originally but when the ark was moved to the temple area on Mount Moriah during Solomons reign, then thats why Jersusalem became known as Zion.
But think about it, it was the Ark which was associated with Gods presence in heaven which gave these places their significance... but seeing the Ark has not been associated with these places for so long, how are they significant today? Even the temple is no longer there anymore so how can they be places special to God and why would he set up shop there???

Amo 1:2 And he said: "The LORD roars from Zion, And utters His voice from Jerusalem; The pastures of the shepherds mourn, And the top of Carmel withers."

]Psa 102:15-16 So the nations shall fear the name of the LORD, And all the kings of the earth Your glory. 16 For the LORD shall build up Zion; He shall appear in His glory.

Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

Again, Zion represents heaven.
Look at Hebrews 12:22-23 “But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens"

Isa 2:3 Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Joe 3:16-18 The LORD also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; But the LORD will be a shelter for His people, And the strength of the children of Israel. 17 "So you shall know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain. Then Jerusalem shall be holy, And no aliens shall ever pass through her again." 18 And it will come to pass in that day That the mountains shall drip with new wine, The hills shall flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water; A fountain shall flow from the house of the LORD And water the Valley of Acacias.

This all occurs from Heaven. Jesus has been directing his brothers from heaven. He even told them before he left "i am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things" because from his heavenly vantage point, heavenly Jerusalem, he can have such control. But lets face it, there is no way these verses could be literal if he were literally located on any point on the earth.

Zec 8:20 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Peoples shall yet come, Inhabitants of many cities; 21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, "Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD, And seek the LORD of hosts. I myself will go also." 22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, And to pray before the LORD.'

again, you dont need to pray to someone who is standing before you. The people mentioned here are 'praying'.... that is something we direct to the heavens because to pray is to speak spiritually to God. If God or Jesus were literally in Jerusalem for us to speak to, then the ones spoken of here would not need to pray.

Mic 4:1-2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the LORD's house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And peoples shall flow to it. 2 Many nations shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

millions of people have done this all over the earth....but they didnt need to go to Jerusalem to do it. Christianity is the mountain people are streaming to and through it Gods law has gone forth. It is all being directed by Christ from his heavenly vantage point.
Revelation 21:10 "So he carried me away in [the power of the] spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God"
God does all things from heaven.

​

This is a heavenly announcement proclaiming Christ's literal collective take over of the governments of this world ending mankind's rule over himself. Other scriptures fill in the gaps describing where He will set up His earthly dwelling and throne---Jerusalem.

I agree with you that Christs rule will take over all earthly rulerships, but Jerusalem will not be the place where he will do it from.

Jesus appeared to many, after His resurrection. A spirit being will have the perogative to manifest themselves as a physical human being. Remember when Jesus suddenly appeared and startled the disciples? He even ate some fish and honeycomb in their presence (Luke 24:36-43). This wasn't the first meal Christ had in His glorified state (Gen 18). We also read throughout scripture how angels, which are composed of spirit, have the ability to manifest themselves as fleshly humans and be able to grab the hands of other humans(Gen 19:16). Scripture indicates Christ and the resurrected saints will have these same abilities. The disciples "saw" Jesus ascend into heaven. Jesus Himself said those humans alive, at the time, will see Him return in like manner :

Act 1:11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Mar 13:26* Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory,

Rev 1:7* Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
​

do you realise that the reason why the angels asked the apostles 'why are you gazing up into the sky?
It was because Jesus was no longer visible...and they kept looking for him after he was taken up into the clouds. They weren't seeing Jesus so the angels asked them what they were looking at and said 'he will come in the same way'

If you really want to 'see' Jesus return, you have to look for the 'sign' that he gave to his apostles. Do you remember when they asked him 'What will be the sign of your presence?' (most bibles put 'coming' here, but the greek word is pa‧rou‧si′a & literally means “being alongside&#8221 Jesus gave them a sign to look for to know that he had returned.

Matthew 24: 3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress....32 “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also YOU, when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors


If Jesus was going to return physically, then he would not have needed to provide a 'sign' for them to identify when he had returned.

 

[james2ko]

and how can this verse be literal? A person cannot stand on a mountain with one foot on one side of the valley and the other foot on the other side. They will have to be some mighty long legs he's standing on.

1. This does not necessarily mean He will be standing right in the middle of it. He could simply be standing on one side or the other while the mountain splits or perhaps the mountain could already be split when His feet touch.

How can this be taken literally? How can 6billion people gather together in Jerusalem?

2. 6 billion people assembled in Jerusalem? Impossible. Several thousand ambassadors representing those nations, undoubtedly.

You should realise that the significance of Zion was that it symbolized Gods dwelling. was originally the mountain that David had the sacred Ark brought. Thats what made it a holy mountain originally but when the ark was moved to the temple area on Mount Moriah during Solomons reign, then thats why Jersusalem became known as Zion.

3. So it's only fitting, upon His return, to literally reign from this very place, right?

But think about it, it was the Ark which was associated with Gods presence in heaven which gave these places their significance... but seeing the Ark has not been associated with these places for so long, how are they significant today? Even the temple is no longer there anymore so how can they be places special to God and why would he set up shop there???

4. You just raved about how Zion [Jerusalem] symbolized God's dwelling place in point #3 and now you question why He would want to physically set up shop there?

Look at Hebrews 12:22-23 “But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens"

5. Yes Mt Zion is symbolic of heaven but we should be careful to take one verse out of context so it can match nicely with our belief system. Nowhere in these verses does it even remotely state Jesus will rule from heaven.

This all occurs from Heaven. Jesus has been directing his brothers from heaven. He even told them before he left "i am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things" because from his heavenly vantage point, heavenly Jerusalem, he can have such control. But lets face it, there is no way these verses could be literal if he were literally located on any point on the earth.

6. Sorry Pegg. He clearly states He will appear a second time (Heb 9:28). And way too many other scriptures tell us He will rule with His Saints from good ole planet earth:

Zec 2:10-13 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," says the LORD. 11 "Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. 12 And the LORD will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD, for He is aroused from His holy habitation!"​

Christ leaves no doubt where His dwelling place will be upon His return. "In the midst" of "all flesh", on the earth, in the Holy Land--Jerusalem.

again, you dont need to pray to someone who is standing before you. The people mentioned here are 'praying'.... that is something we direct to the heavens because to pray is to speak spiritually to God. If God or Jesus were literally in Jerusalem for us to speak to, then the ones spoken of here would not need to pray.

7. God the Father and Jesus Christ are two separate entities. They will pray "before" the Lord [Christ] not "to" Him. Jesus taught us that we are to direct our prayers to the Father (Mat 6:6). During Christ's millenial reign, God the Father will still be in heaven. He will also make His dwelling here on earth, sometime after the millenium (Rev 21:3)

millions of people have done this all over the earth....but they didnt need to go to Jerusalem to do it. Christianity is the mountain people are streaming to and through it Gods law has gone forth. It is all being directed by Christ from his heavenly vantage point. Revelation 21:10 "So he carried me away in [the power of the] spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God" God does all things from heaven.

8. John, in vision, saw the New Jerusalem, which He describes in detail, coming down from the sky [heaven]. I'm afraid you are over-allegorizing scripture. Scripture is so much easier to understand when it's interpreted literally.

f Jesus was going to return physically, then he would not have needed to provide a 'sign' for them to identify when he had returned.

9. Jesus Himself did not even know the day and hour of His return (Mat 24:36). So He simply shared what He knew with His apostles .

do you realise that the reason why the angels asked the apostles 'why are you gazing up into the sky? It was because Jesus was no longer visible...and they kept looking for him after he was taken up into the clouds. They weren't seeing Jesus so the angels asked them what they were looking at and said 'he will come in the same way'

10. Combining Acts 1:11 with Mar 13:26, Rev 1:7 and other scriptures already quoted make it very plain, Pegg.

 

[Vansdad]

This may well have been the case 2000 years ago.
God and Christ work in PROGRESSIVE stages to move Creation foreward. Scripture is quite obviously implying a beginning and an end of things. You might like to give this some more thought ?

God is unchanging. 2000 years means nothing to God. So finding Him means looking inside yourself.

 

[james2ko]

Luke 17:21 (King James Version) 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Jesus addressed this statement to the Pharisees. How could the kingdom be within men He called "hypocrites" and "blind guides", "who were full of extortion and excess," who were like "whitewashed tombs, which appeared beautiful outward, but...within [were] full of dead mens bones, and all uncleanness" (Matt 23:21, 23-27)?

 

[Vansdad]

Jesus addressed this statement to the Pharisees. How could the kingdom be within men He called "hypocrites" and "blind guides", "who were full of extortion and excess," who were like "whitewashed tombs, which appeared beautiful outward, but...within [were] full of dead mens bones, and all uncleanness" (Matt 23:21, 23-27)?

I don't know what Jesus meant other than what he said. It means, and even for "bad" people, that in order to find God one must look inside themselves.

 

[james2ko]

I don't know what Jesus meant other than what he said. It means, and even for "bad" people, thatin order to find God one must look inside themselves.

Could it possilbly have a more scripturally supported interpretation? see here

 

[Pegg]

I don't know what Jesus meant other than what he said. It means, and even for "bad" people, that in order to find God one must look inside themselves.

i dont always agree with james, but he's correct on this one

When you look at the actual text, it turns out to be a bit of a mistranslation anyway.

The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible: “Although frequently cited as an example of Jesus’ ‘mysticism’ or ‘inwardness,’ this interpretation rests chiefly upon the old translation, ‘within you,’ [KJ, Dy] understood in the unfortunate modern sense of ‘you’ as singular; the ‘you’ ([hy‧mon′]) is plural (Jesus is addressing the Pharisees—vs. 20) . . . The theory that the kingdom of God is an inner state of mind, or of personal salvation, runs counter to the context of this verse, and also to the whole NT presentation of the idea.”

The idea comes from how the old english tranlsators rendered the verse as 'within you'... Jesus was addressing the people as a whole. The way we understand this verse is that Jesus, who was himself the King of the kingdom, was among them....he was there in their midst and its in this way the 'kingdom was among them'

Jesus was the realisation of the heavenly kingdom so quite literally, the kingdom was among those people.

 

[Beta]

I don't know what Jesus meant other than what he said. It means, and even for "bad" people, that in order to find God one must look inside themselves.

I do agree with you to some extent my friend even as I do with james and Pegg on this.
It all comes down to the 'meaning' of the words which can 'appear' to be right in both cases. We should never limit God or Jesus as to their full meaning.
What Jesus said was lost on the Pharisees because of their 'hard-heartedness' but for a simple and humble person it would be the beginning of growth of his Word he was sowing. All great things of God start from the smallest concept, humble and simple.The only mistake we can then make it to let it rest there without further attention.

 

[Beta]

God is unchanging. 2000 years means nothing to God. So finding Him means looking inside yourself.

Quite true - God is unchanging but man is not ! WE must change and that is achieved by growing in the knowledge of God/Christ.
Everything God has for man's growth and conversion is already encapsuled in his Word but only revealed to us gradually over time.
So what Jesus said 2000 years ago should be bearing fruit today , no longer be just a planted seed in our hearts.Eventually it will become reality or we are just living a dream. God and Christ are more than that !!! :yes:

 

[Muffled]

2. 6 billion people assembled in Jerusalem? Impossible. Several thousand ambassadors representing those nations, undoubtedly.

The New Jerusalem is 1500 miles by 1500 miles. That is still pretty compact for 6 billion people but there is no guarantee that all 6 billion will make it. It is also possible for people to spread out from the city after it lands so that not all of the people remain in the city.

My personal assignment is to evangelize those people who were not raptured but managed to survive. This of course is within the first 1000 years after which, that opportunity ceases.