Thank you for all the responses. There are various interpretations of this one. Personally my experience has been that we need to look inside and not outside to find God. It's kind of like saying there is nothing in the outside world that can prove to anyone that God exists but when we look inside ourselves we find the proof.
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Is the Kingdom of God earthly or heavenly?
- Thread starter Pegg
- Start date
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Jesus spoke of a spiritual kingdom and even said his kingdom was not of this world. When asked where the kingdom was, he replied:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Gospel of Thomas- If your leaders say to you the kingdom is in the sky, then the birds of the sky proceed you. If they say it is in the sea, then the fish of the sea proceed you. Rather God's kingdom is inside and outside of you.
When you come to know yourselves you will become known, and understand you are children of the living Father, but if you will not be known you dwell in poverty, and you yourself are that poverty.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Gospel of Thomas- If your leaders say to you the kingdom is in the sky, then the birds of the sky proceed you. If they say it is in the sea, then the fish of the sea proceed you. Rather God's kingdom is inside and outside of you.
When you come to know yourselves you will become known, and understand you are children of the living Father, but if you will not be known you dwell in poverty, and you yourself are that poverty.
Please notice at Luke 17v20 Jesus is talking to his enemies the Pharisees.
Jesus was Not saying the kingdom was within his enemies verse 21.
It is not until verse 22 that Jesus addresses his disciples.
The Greek carries the idea of being among another.
Jesus was within the reach or midst of his enemies.
Jesus goes on to explain about the kingdom of God at Luke 19 vs11-15
Where Jesus, as the nobleman, goes away to a far country [heaven] first on a long journey, and when he returns is after a length of time that he receives the kingdom or becomes the crowned acting king of God's kingdom.
Daniel 7vs13,14; 2v44.
Isn't God's kingdom, as described by Daniel, a real kingdom or government?
What does Isaiah 9v7 say?
Within = among.
First, what is meant by "earthly" or "heavenly"?
Most people have a weird metaphysical distinction here and over complicate things.
Why accept a definition you cannot understand in a practical manner?
As I understand the difference between the two terms, God's rulership over His Kingdom has to be considered heavenly. It is intrinsic because having rulership is heavenly. You are someone designated to shine your light to the lower creations beneath your governance. That's what it means. And, this counts for rulership whether it is good or evil.
God puts just as much care and effort into creating the new Satan (lesser light to rule the night) as He does the new Savior (greater light to rule the day). And, he declared "all these things were very good".
Anyone who has governance over others is a host of heaven. A 'heavenly' messenger is any government employee, church deacon, etc.
So, the Kingdom of God is heavenly and its setting is here upon the physical earth.
At the time of Jesus' ministry He said His Kingdom was "not of this world". What He meant by this had more to do with timing than locale. He knew He wouldn't actually have His Kingdom until the "world to come". This is the "new creation" when there would be "a new heavens and a new earth" created. So, what Jesus was saying is He wouldn't come back to rule in God's Kingdom until Day 1 of the new creation. This is obviously because God's Kingdom cannot obtain the victory until then when the 'light' would break forth and cause the division among the people.
On Day 1 you have the "greater light to rule the day" and the "lesser light to rule the night" to both come forth and do the job they were created to do on Day 4 of the previous "world" or the previous creation cycle.
So, we should not only be looking for the coming forth of the Kingdom of God, we also should be looking for the coming forth of the Kingdom of Satan or the anti-Christ too. These kingdoms are BOTH heavenly kingdoms and are ruled by the luminaries who were created to perform these leadership roles.
So, if you think Satan is a "bad guy" you need to think again. He is a vital and important part of the plan of things every bit as much as Jesus is. He has a legitimate right and place and shall receive most of the people of this planet under his governance. There are still a good many people who prefer darkness to light and would rather be in Satan's Kingdom than in God's Kingdom.
Most people have a weird metaphysical distinction here and over complicate things.
Why accept a definition you cannot understand in a practical manner?
As I understand the difference between the two terms, God's rulership over His Kingdom has to be considered heavenly. It is intrinsic because having rulership is heavenly. You are someone designated to shine your light to the lower creations beneath your governance. That's what it means. And, this counts for rulership whether it is good or evil.
God puts just as much care and effort into creating the new Satan (lesser light to rule the night) as He does the new Savior (greater light to rule the day). And, he declared "all these things were very good".
Anyone who has governance over others is a host of heaven. A 'heavenly' messenger is any government employee, church deacon, etc.
So, the Kingdom of God is heavenly and its setting is here upon the physical earth.
At the time of Jesus' ministry He said His Kingdom was "not of this world". What He meant by this had more to do with timing than locale. He knew He wouldn't actually have His Kingdom until the "world to come". This is the "new creation" when there would be "a new heavens and a new earth" created. So, what Jesus was saying is He wouldn't come back to rule in God's Kingdom until Day 1 of the new creation. This is obviously because God's Kingdom cannot obtain the victory until then when the 'light' would break forth and cause the division among the people.
On Day 1 you have the "greater light to rule the day" and the "lesser light to rule the night" to both come forth and do the job they were created to do on Day 4 of the previous "world" or the previous creation cycle.
So, we should not only be looking for the coming forth of the Kingdom of God, we also should be looking for the coming forth of the Kingdom of Satan or the anti-Christ too. These kingdoms are BOTH heavenly kingdoms and are ruled by the luminaries who were created to perform these leadership roles.
So, if you think Satan is a "bad guy" you need to think again. He is a vital and important part of the plan of things every bit as much as Jesus is. He has a legitimate right and place and shall receive most of the people of this planet under his governance. There are still a good many people who prefer darkness to light and would rather be in Satan's Kingdom than in God's Kingdom.
Sure we know satan is a part of God's plan for mankind but he has just about had his day or shall we say night. There will be no future rulership for him apart from a very short time - his end is in the lake of fire.
And yes , more than a few people still prefer darkness because that is all they have been used to - doesn't mean they will continue in it no matter which way you turn scripture.
Won't be able to when morning breaks and Christ begins to reign !!!:yes:
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Satan continues to have dominion.
Take notice that on Day 1 of the new Creation that there are indeed two kingdoms.
It doesn't say there won't be any darkness at all. They are merely divided from one another.
The only ones who are part of God's Kingdom are those who are watching carefully and they are among the "few there be that find it".
I believe most of the world is going to go on business as usual and not really understand what is happening around them.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. My thoughts exactly.
2. Scripture indicates God the Father will be "supervising" from heaven during Christ's millenial rule on earth.
3. What happen to your premise about "over complicating things" from point 1?
Revelation chapters 20-21 are chronologically accurate. Before the new heavens and earth (Rev 21:1), Christ will rule with His saints on the "old" or current earth for 1,000 years. (Rev 20:6)
The kingdom of satan is this current world or age (2co 4:4; Jn 12:31; 14:30). Satan will be replaced by Christ at His return (Rev 11:15)
You are still over complicating things. A host of 'heaven' is anyone in a position of leadership, even those who are upon the physical planet. The distinction between 'earthyly' and 'heavenly' is whether an individual has any power of governance that God recognizes. When speaking of 'worlds' you are speaking of the cycle of the ages or creations. There is one 'world' per creation cycle. So, Jesus saying His Kingdom is not of this world means it is spiritually forming now so that it can physically manifest in the 'world to come'. That is when Jesus stands as the Father in the beginning of that new world. And, you can say His God watches over Him in that capacity because their souls are merged. All of the Fathers of all past creation cycles are soul braided into a vine or a serpent or whatever you want to call it. The beginning of the new overlaps the ending of the old. They are concurrent for a period of one Day of creation, which is approximately 1,000 years. Thus, the Millennium is both Day 7 (Sabbath) and Day 1 (Lord's Day) at the same time. This is why Christians observe the Sabbath on Sunday. It denotes the Day of their resurrection. Satan will not be totally removed from power. It is only the saints who overcome who shall be enabled to enter into the Kingdom of the Father and His Christ. Most people on this planet shall remain a part of Satan's Kingdom. The important difference is the Kingdom will not be persecuted and molested and those in it during that time will be able to flourish beautifully and be a light to the world. As the Father's Kingdom grows it will naturally overcome evil that shall still be upon the planet. It won't be by conquest. It will be by setting a good example.1. My thoughts exactly.
2. Scripture indicates God the Father will be "supervising" from heaven during Christ's millenial rule on earth.
3. What happen to your premise about "over complicating things" from point 1?
Revelation chapters 20-21 are chronologically accurate. Before the new heavens and earth (Rev 21:1), Christ will rule with His saints on the "old" or current earth for 1,000 years. (Rev 20:6)
The kingdom of satan is this current world or age (2co 4:4; Jn 12:31; 14:30). Satan will be replaced by Christ at His return (Rev 11:15)
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james2ko
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, symbolic interpretations are a dime a dozen. Symbolism and metaphor certainly have there place in scripture but much too often, we let our imaginations and creative juices get the best of us and we lose out on the simple literal meaning God intended all along.
That's why I limit myself to only work with metaphors that the Bible explicitly establishes. So far it works perfectly. Suit yourself though!
Take care!
james2ko
Well-Known Member
I think of it this way. Since applying symbolism to scripture is subject to our incredibly vast and diverse imaginations, I do not see how Christ can condemn anyone for interpreting His Word literally. Furthermore, even if your symbolic interpretation is correct, I would have one heck of a good excuse to claim my ignorance. On the other hand, those who apply symbolic interpretations to plain scriptures will have some explaining to do when Christ asks them, "Why did you not just simply read what was written?"
james2ko
Well-Known Member
I believe the number will be much larger. We have to include the rest of the dead (Rev 20:5) who were resurrected after the 1,000 years and given their first, fair and unveiled opportunity to know and accept Christ. Those who overcome will also gain eternal life and access to the city (Rev 20:12-13).
Rapture?? We can save that one for another day..
I believe the number will be much larger. We have to include the rest of the dead (Rev 20:5) who were resurrected after the 1,000 years and given their first, fair and unveiled opportunity to know and accept Christ. Those who overcome will also gain eternal life and access to the city (Rev 20:12-13).
Rapture?? We can save that one for another day..
Not rapture but resurrection. Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom according to 1st Cor 15v50.
Not resurrected 'after' the 1000 years, but meaning the dead do not come to 'everlasting' life until after the 1000 years. During the thousand years disobedient ones can still die. After the thousand years final test there will be no more disobedient ones left . Technically we are still 'dead' until we have gotten past that final test of Rev 20vs7-10;21v8.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
The implication was that I do not believe in the rapture.
We've been down this road UR. May I suggest you keep a log on the topics you've debated and with whom.
ImmortalPhoenix
Member
The Gospel of Thomas, 3:
Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not of eating and drinking, but peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
And if you don't realize that statement as true, you have never felt the pure ecstasy of the Holy Spirit.:angel2:
Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not of eating and drinking, but peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
And if you don't realize that statement as true, you have never felt the pure ecstasy of the Holy Spirit.:angel2:
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Acts [1v9] mentions the resurrected Jesus when he ascended up to heaven that a cloud received Jesus out of sight. Jesus was not standing on a cloud or drifting with a cloud.
The cloud made Jesus invisible. And as Jesus told us at John [14v19] the world would behold him no more.
Isn't part of the rapture that the world will behold or see Jesus again?
1st Thess [4v16] ends with the dead in Christ will rise first.
Verse 17 starts with the word 'Then'. 'Then' shows that later the remaining living ones will also be caught up. How was Jesus caught up but after he was resurrected. So those called to rule with Jesus [Rev20v6;5vs9,10] will be caught up in resurrection not rapture.
How can a raptured person take 'flesh and blood' to heaven when 1st Cor 15v50 says otherwise, however, a resurrected person can.
The cloud made Jesus invisible. And as Jesus told us at John [14v19] the world would behold him no more.
Isn't part of the rapture that the world will behold or see Jesus again?
1st Thess [4v16] ends with the dead in Christ will rise first.
Verse 17 starts with the word 'Then'. 'Then' shows that later the remaining living ones will also be caught up. How was Jesus caught up but after he was resurrected. So those called to rule with Jesus [Rev20v6;5vs9,10] will be caught up in resurrection not rapture.
How can a raptured person take 'flesh and blood' to heaven when 1st Cor 15v50 says otherwise, however, a resurrected person can.
Back up. I didn't say I make up my own symbolism. I said I only use symbol definitions that the Bible itself provides. Thus, I am reading it literally. The only way you can understand what the Bible literally says is to "crack the code" so to speak. If you are ignoring metaphors the Bible explicitly lays out, you are not taking it literally you are just being clumbsy and likely going to bring much scorn upon the text for taking it that way. Just the first chapter alone with the creation account ought to convince anyone not to take it as a literal document with no need of interpretive symbols. It desperately calls for interpretive keys and fortunately it provides them.
1Th 4:16-17:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God ('twill be noisy),
and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever."
That is the very loud, very visible resurrection and rapture from the Word of God written. . .which occurs at the end of time.