I joy in your humility ! truly !
But I have difficulty following your 'sun-god' and 'moon-god' scenario. (please don't repeat it as I have read several references to it already).
Rev.21v23, the New Jerusalem will have no need of either.
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Is the Kingdom of God earthly or heavenly?
- Thread starter Pegg
- Start date
But I have difficulty following your 'sun-god' and 'moon-god' scenario. (please don't repeat it as I have read several references to it already).
Rev.21v23, the New Jerusalem will have no need of either.
Thanks.I joy in your humility ! truly !
That part of Revelation describes the Sun/Moon God's global headquarters when their kingdoms are established. Does the sun need a sun? Of course not.
The Kgd of God will be established on the earth and no other gods will exist apart from the Creator.
It shall be a literal government and the Creator shall be manifesting personally in the flesh and sit upon the throne of that kingdom.
The thousand year period of rule shall be the Davidic dynasty after Him.
Agreed?
Yes , agreed !
But I have one question. When you say 'in the flesh 'do you mean in the flesh as a human being or do you mean 'in his resurrected body '? For Christ shall rule during the millennium.
I do believe there to be a difference.
Sorry, did not give sufficient consideration to your statement. The Creator-God IS SPIRIT (Joh.4v24) and will not manifest himself in the flesh except through Jesus Christ whose work on earth will be done after the 1000 years when he hands over again to his Father 1Cor.15v25,28.
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I mean that God the Father shall be an advent via a man in the flesh who obtains the same kind of spiritual union with Jesus Christ as Jesus Christ obtained with His Father. He will be an advent of Messiah and be what Acts 3:20-23 calls the 'prophet like unto Moses' who gathers all the 12 tribes of Israel from out of exile and establishes them again as a sovereign political power in the world. This is the one to whom the scepter departs Judah and goes to in the last days (per Gen 49:1,10) and is also the 'shepherd and stone [king] of Israel' who comes from the House of Joseph (per Gen 49:22-24).
As I read all of the prophecies of the Bible, Quran, Doctrine and Covenants (LDS revelations of Joseph Smith) I see that there are three distinct Messianic advents. Jesus as the Son, Adam as the Holy Ghost and then a third advent I call the Shiloh Messiah as the Father. The tribes of Israel these advents are from are Judah, Ephraim and Joseph respectively.
This last individual actually shall have spiritual union with Jesus and Adam and represents the redeemed Adam (Man) when his son Seth (Son of Man) restores Him to health and puts Him back upon His throne. Seth is God's Christ as referred to in Revelation 12:10.
Thus, the advent of the Father is the resurrection of both Jesus and Adam in union. So, by way of implication, the return of Jesus Christ is via a new advent of Deity by way of a man from the House of Joseph. The implication here is (spiritual) resurrection is a process of at-one-ment between a willing/worthy man alive in the flesh at the time and the personage of Deity who shall manifest through him.
And, as Adam in the advent of the Father, Christ shall reign for 1,000 years. This man from the House of Joseph is the first of a dynasty that shall rule for 1,000 years. He does so via spiritual communication (revelation) from 'the true and living vine'. So, if you are looking for Jesus to rule and reign for 1,000 years in his immortal spiritualize person, you are absolutely correct. You just also need to consider the fact that there shall be a new tabernacle through which He shall manifest Himself. And, that tabernacle shall be Shiloh Messiah from the House of Joseph. Hope that clears things up. And pardon the redundancy.
jbug , seems my view of the coming millennium is much closer and would not allow for all the things you are trying to fit in . We are close to entering a spiritual era which would not any longer require all the human,physical and material set-ups you envisage.
When Christ returns HE wil personally rule with the help of the resurrected 144.000 - who btw are /have been drawn from all nations and comprise 'spiritual' Israel in the Kgd of God established on earth. In it there will be no different nations with different views. The human era with all it's divisions will fade away after these last tribulations caused by man.
When Christ returns HE wil personally rule with the help of the resurrected 144.000 - who btw are /have been drawn from all nations and comprise 'spiritual' Israel in the Kgd of God established on earth. In it there will be no different nations with different views. The human era with all it's divisions will fade away after these last tribulations caused by man.
My requirement is all prophecy in the Bible must be fulfilled and this planet is the setting for it to be fulfilled in. The spiritual era has been touch and go already a couple of times. Jesus brought resurrection which lasted for a time and the Father came to bring the Kingdom but it only lasted for a time before He transgressed and fell. We have already tasted a good portion of what shall return again. Only this time it will not be stumped and it will not fall into transgression. It shall be redeemed and take hold and win out over the world instead of being overcome by it. The Kingdom is victorious this time.
Bear in mind, those 144,000 individuals are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel as listed in Revelations ch 7. Do you have a good explanation of how these shall be distinguished and why Joseph and Manasseh are listed and Ephraim is not?
I get the sense that you have not yet penetrated all of the layers of metaphor in holy writ and that much of your reading of it and consequent expectations are still up in the sky a ways and not brought down to being fully grounded in practical terms. But, I definitely sense you are heads and shoulders above most other Christians.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
This is actually breaking down badly......
and I see you have drawn another into it.
Being a prophet...a saint...or otherwise...is not a choice you make.
Shall we redirect to another thread?
In the mean time....
The kingdom is not of this world.
It is not of flesh.
Whether or not we are eligible to become considered such is a product of our individual choices.
The statement "many are called but few are chosen" touches upon this.
I feel called to apply myself in the realm of religious thought and action.
Whether I become a saint or not is in accordance to the process that God has outlined. I become a saint when those ordained to administer the bestowal of the "breath of life" deem me worthy to receive such. I step forward and act in faith due to being called and then at some point I am chosen to realize that which I have sought for.
This process also applies to a great extent in becomming a prophet. A little understood body of men surrounded Elijah the Prophet. They were called the Sons of the Prophets. And, in the latter days they were called the School of the Prophets. This is an organization that made no efforts to proseletize. Only those who felt called and stepped forward were considered. The aspirant would go through various initiatory proceedures and could eventually be schooled in the duties and responsibilities of prophethood. Again, though many are called, few are chosen.
I suppose I could add one more thread to the list of those I am concluding. I'm actually intending to bail out of participating here.
When Jesus said it was "not of this world" He was saying it wouldn't be established in victory until the "world to come". That is why the "greater light to rule the day" created on Day 4 doesn't actually do the job He was created to do until Day 1 of the following creation, which is the "world to come". That is simply a reference to the timing in the cycle of things right here on planet earth. The "creation" does not pertain to a cosmos. It merely pertains to how mankind is organized upon this planet into nations, kingdoms, families, etc. There is no other sensible place for the Father to reign personally over His Kingdom than right here on planet earth. He stands at the beginning of all new cycles or worlds of creation. And, actually He simultaneously stands at the end of the old cycle of creation. They overlap. The Millennium is both Day 7 of the old and Day 1 of the new concurrently. The Father is the Alpha and the Omega. Jesus returns as the Father. HERE on planet earth in the flesh. Nowhere else makes one iota of practical sence to try and explain.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
For the most part...we might agree.
But the subtle differences of terms...makes all the difference.
Of Himself He did say.....'brother and fellow servant.'
On a good day...when you are doing...'well enough'
He might be willing to say so...for your sake.
But He did avoid crowns and labels.... otherwise.
I don't see that in you.
He avoided people using crowns and labels to puff themselves up to esteem themselves more than another. Those who simply serve the Lord in faith and humility are yet given such crowns and labels in due time. This is done because they are chosen worthy. An essential characteristic of a person who shall get chosen is he doesn't immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion over others. There are a rare few individuals who don't falter to abuse power once given.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Nay...He avoided people who wanted to put a crown on HIM.
'brother and fellow servant'..... He did say.
Were you really hoping for something else?....something more?
Oh, yes I see your point. I agree, He did avoid this.
The reason is because He knew it wasn't yet time for that. His time to rule and reign would not come until after He was put to death and He returned. That's why He said His Kingdom was "not of this world". It was not yet time for it.
I simply expect prophecy to be fulfilled.
Jesus knew that Judah had yet to be given her sister Samaria's cup (per Ezekiel 23:31) and that the Kingdom could not be established in victory at that time. That time wouldn't come until 2,730 years after the northern kingdom went into exile and would be eligible to be received into a new covenant. Judah's timeframe for redemption is also the same since at 70AD they were given the cup of their sister and joined them in exile.
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Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
You, as a Christian, are not convinced about Luke 17:21! That's odd! Better yet, Luke claims those words as of coming from Jesus' lips themselves. Why don't you agree with Jesus? Doesn't he make sense to you? Perhaps Could it be that Paul deserves more credit than Jesus himself? Jesus never said that he was Christ himself. Paul did it. You do believe him; otherwise you would not be called a Christian.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Before making silly accusations, it might help if you read the link.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Your interpretation has taken you in quite a different direction.
His kingdom really isn't....of this world.
My interpretation is what Jesus meant. How about you tell me what is meant by the phrase 'world to come'. There is most definitely a time component that is the most significant aspect.
There shall be a literal political kingdom that comes to be here on this planet. It shall be when Israel (all 12 tribes) are no longer under the 2,730 year period of exile and punishment. When God establishes the new covenant with His people that are now eligible, those that are worthy shall be received into that society. Those who are not worthy to be in that society shall be driven out over time. Evidently, you will be among those who shall fight against it.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
The kingdom is at hand.
The moment you lay down to surrender your last breath....there it will be.
It is not of this world.....literally.
God is spirit.
The kingdom is spiritual.
It is within you.
The political kingdom you speak of is that kingdom Pilate wanted to know about.
Had the Carpenter pointed His finger...in any direction...soldiers would have been sent to conquer it.
When Jesus said ....My kingdom is not of this world.....
He meant it...literally.
I don't recall saying it didn't have a spiritual component. Just like your spirit exists without your physical body, so too does the Kingdom of God exist without a physical body. What you seem to be missing is that the Kingdom of God shall for a period of about 1,000 years obtain its physical manifestation here on planet earth. If you wish to keep spiritualizing everything to the exclusion of its physical manifestation they you are going to miss out.
Of course, soldiers would be dorks to think they could time travel. Jesus was saying He wouldn't come to do the job He was created to do until the very beginning of the 'world to come', which is when there shall be a new heavens and a new earth organized. This whole process is the work that shall be performed by the Kingdom of God. He has to give every creature of the new creation their new name. Put another way, He has to judge and organize all of the spirits of men into their new 'mansions in His Father's house'. That work has to be performed here in order for it to affect things here. It will get along just fine without you if that's the way you want it.