Is the moral standard of humanists better than God's?

[ChristineM]

Sorry, but you are wrong. Go to the NT and read what a Christians believes and the resultant required behavior to be a Christian. It cannot be squared with what some alleged Christians have done, ergo they aren;t Christians. Perhaps you need to develop a label like "professed Christians" or "alleged Christians" or " self identified Christians " for recipients of your vitriol. YOU KNOW that all of this behavior is totally contrary to Christianity theology and belief. Telling a child to be careful of strangers because they might be harmed is also child abuse by your standard.

BTW, The national manhunt a few weeks ago for a guy who burglarized a gun store and made threats to kill people, was a vocal supporter for his worldview/faith, atheism

It is not your decision do dictate who is and who is not christian.

Remember mark 12:17 identifies jesus as an anarchist.

Are you saying that Christians should ignore 85% of the bible to be Christian?

 

[ChristineM]

BTW, The national manhunt a few weeks ago for a guy who burglarized a gun store and made threats to kill people, was a vocal supporter for his worldview/faith, atheism

And James Holmes, Adam Lanza, Dylann Roof were all Christian.

And they actually did kill people, innocent children, church goers, pregnant women etc.

 

[shmogie]

Actually, it's you playing the game here. The thread is comparing the ethics of humanism with those ascribed to God, which I take to mean the god of the Christian Bible. That's a proper comparison.

When you transform "humanism" into "athiesm" and compare that to Christianity, you're making a category error. You need to compare atheism to theism, or a particular atheistic ideology to a particular religion. By switching from humanism to atheism, you bring in ideologies with are antithetical to humanism and repudiated by it, yet you want to hang that on humanists using this category trick of yours.

You objected that "atheists like yourself should not be considered as having any dirty hands from this." Of course we do, just as theist like yourself should object to my blaming Christian theists for the barbarism of the Aztecs who pulled beating hearts out of victims or islanders that throw virgin girls into burning volcanoes.

All that we humanists have in common with the Communist dictators is atheism, and probably aleprechaunism and avampirism as well. What we both don't believe doesn't really make us kindred spirits.

Those totalitarian regimes have much more in common with religions like Christianity than secular humanism. They just substitute a man for the god, who issues commandments without giving reasons, doesn't debate or negotiate them, and expects complete submission and obedience under threat of retributive punishment. Sound familiar? Jehovah and Stalin have all of that in common.

So I give those Communist regimes back to you authoritarians. We're the freedom ideology, the one that respects the dignity of man, celebrates his accomplishments and potential, and wants him to be all that he can be: free, well educated, autonomous, citizens living in a just society, each free to pursue happiness as he envisions it within the limits of a just and rational body of law intended to safeguard those same opportunities for others, laws that citizens write together when selected by other citizen to do that job.

You won't find those humanist ideals in Stalinism or in the Christian Bible:

"The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion. The problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship.- Sam Harris

Harris is not the greatest person to quote. Nevertheless Modern Christians have continually condemned and expressed sorrow for evil that people have done in the name of the Faith. Much is totally indefensible,m and I wouldn't waste a breath to do so. What I object strongly to is 1) demonstrably erroneous conclusions from the Bible then touting them as truth. 2) Taking Christian teachings and beliefs and lumping them together with evil actions of alleged Christians into an evil erroneous stew to cook and smear Christians.This is poor in a scholarly fashion, and immoral in a plane of morality. Any who take this approach, are simply repeating the same errors and immoral mud slinging. I just completed a book by a Christian scholar who takes on Dawkin's whining and very poor exegesis of the OT, and with knowledge, proved Dawkins really doesn;'t understand what he is talking about. The new atheists because they are brash, emotional and sloppy are fairly easy to refute. Many "old atheists" admit this, and are happy to point out their failings.

 

[shmogie]

It is not your decision do dictate who is and who is not christian.

Remember mark 12:17 identifies jesus as an anarchist.

Are you saying that Christians should ignore 85% of the bible to be Christian?

Not hardly. Anarchist believe in chaos, no moral standards and violence because the end ( a world where people can do whatever they want) justifies the means. I am saying that a Christian should know all the Bible, but should recognize the difference between the first and second covenant. I agree totally with your observation that decisions do dictate who is, and isn;t a Christian

 

[ChristineM]

I don't understand your point. Atheism is a world view. It says that there is no ultimate right or wrong, no afterlife, no final judgement. In my view this has encouraged the brutal behavior of the atheists I have noted, You say you are an atheist Humanist, that's fine I have studied humanism and their approach has many positive points. Nevertheless, I don't understand why you think atheists should be insulated from one another re their behavior, but Christians are continually grouped together and judged en masse by you for their individual or group behaviors that are wrong or wrong in your opinion. An atheist is an atheist and what ever they do individually or in a group they are still atheists. That;s your rule for alleged Christians, this will be my rule for evil atheists, I don't care if you are a "militant atheist" I have engaged folk who consider themselves such before. No problem for me as I am happy to defend my faith before anyone.

No it doesn't, atheism says its a disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Morality does not come into the question

However seeing as you raised morality as an argument against atheism.

Morality is a human trait, and despite what you have been told by your preacher, atheists are human. Without morality civilisation could not have been founded and without civilisation no religion could have taken root to steal the concept of morality and bastardise it to exclude those people they hate. Be it persons of another religion, divergent branch of their own religion or atheists.

Note theft is an immoral act

 

[shmogie]

And James Holmes, Adam Lanza, Dylann Roof were all Christian.

And they actually did kill people, innocent children, church goers, pregnant women etc.

How could they be Christians and do what they did ? That's like saying a guy is a pilot because he fell off a roof then said he was a pilot. If a guy says he is an elephant, do you take him at his word ? What if he walks on all fours and eat's hay, does that convince you that he is an elephant ? What would it take for you to look at him and then say, "there's an elephant !" ?

 

[ChristineM]

Not hardly. Anarchist believe in chaos, no moral standards and violence because the end ( a world where people can do whatever they want) justifies the means. I am saying that a Christian should know all the Bible, but should recognize the difference between the first and second covenant. I agree totally with your observation that decisions do dictate who is, and isn;t a Christian

Jesus was preaching anarchy against the legal government.

Anarchy : a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems.

No matter what apologetics you dress it up with, the bible is specific that he was teaching anarchist action against the legal government

Ahh so you advocate cherry picking what best suites you? That my dear is a failed faith.

Then why are you dictating who is and who isn't Christian?

 

[ChristineM]

How could they be Christians and do what they did ? That's like saying a guy is a pilot because he fell off a roof then said he was a pilot. If a guy says he is an elephant, do you take him at his word ? What if he walks on all fours and eat's hay, does that convince you that he is an elephant ? What would it take for you to look at him and then say, "there's an elephant !" ?

How can you be christian and deny them their faith?

Don't talk nonsense it only make you look silly

 

[shmogie]

No it doesn't, atheism says its a disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Morality does not come into the question

However seeing as you raised morality as an argument against atheism.

Morality is a human trait, and despite what you have been told by your preacher, atheists are human. Without morality civilisation could not have been founded and without civilisation no religion could have taken root to steal the concept of morality and bastardise it to exclude those people they hate. Be it persons of another religion, divergent branch of their own religion or atheists.

Note theft is an immoral act

So atheism isn't a world view ? Maybe you ought to check the definition of the term. OF COURSE ATHEISTS ARE HUMAN, where you folks get these strange notions about Christians i haven't a clue. Whew, your understanding of history is very, very, inaccurate. Civilizations were founded by religious people and ALL used the laws of their religion to maintain a cohesive society. You keep to talking about hate. I don't hate anyone, though the religion of moslems and their actions is very vexing for me. I am tired and am now leaving the forum. AS to morality, it is a deep issue, and we can come back to this later, howevwr if the new atheists are right, and everything humans do is a result of evolved genetic precursors for survival, and as Dawkins says, "we only dance to our genes", where does morality come from? Think on it. I later want to address the issue of abortion with you, and what the US Constitution and law say.,

 

[stevevw]

Who is "we"? Governments? Individuals?

I am American. Currently, America, which has lately become increasingly conservative and its government increasingly Christian, is dominated by a selfish ideology, which, as a a secular humanist and a liberal, is one I reject. That seems to be what you are describing.

Western European governments - the socialistic democracies - seem to be far more to my liking and consistent with my own values, which was reinforced this week when I saw "Where to invade next."

"We" can represent society, governments, large multinational companies, big business, banks Christian or non-Christian. Though I think it is hard to be a Christian and allow some of the stuff that some governments have done. They may claim to be Christian but in practice, they are not. Basically most of the things that represent the capitalist system of doing things that have been adopted especially the neo-liberal ideas of recent times which are failing. I think the socialist's ideas and the liberal ideals are converging now so its hard to tell. That's if they are not still using the ideas of the past where socialist powers want to control just about everything which creates another problem. Either way, there are many people suffering and dying. The promise of economic freedom with the neoliberal policies has backfired and now there the haves and have nots and we are seeing poverty in so-called wealthy countries who are not really wealthy because they are borrowed up to their eyeballs. This has forced people who cannot afford it to borrow in an effort to chase the dream but in the end, they will find its really a false hope.

But these are the results from the ideas that the governments we vote in and the system we hold up and follow as being the answer. People are more concerned with finding money to buy things than help the needy. Now some countries are cutting back on overseas aid because they say they are in massive debt. People don't give as much because they are more concerned about their own situations in trying to maintain the high standard of life.At the same time, we waste an awful lot rather let it rot lot that could feed many. We are seeing the rise of racism and discrimination because people are scared of anyone different now. Governments have been installing more and more laws and regulations to combat behaviour and try to keep things getting out of hand but this does not work. It gets to a point where people are scared to say or do anything because they might get sued or offend someone.

On the one hand, we take moral positions with the ideals that society promotes yet on the other we undo most of this by the way we allow certain behaviors ie we say that drugs are bad but at the same time promote drinking as a way to socialise and party which sends a message to others especially the young that taking mild altering substances is cool because it helps you socialise and have a good time. The laws say certain things are illegal but that depends on who you are and how much power and money you have.

 

[ChristineM]

So atheism isn't a world view ? Maybe you ought to check the definition of the term. OF COURSE ATHEISTS ARE HUMAN, where you folks get these strange notions about Christians i haven't a clue. Whew, your understanding of history is very, very, inaccurate. Civilizations were founded by religious people and ALL used the laws of their religion to maintain a cohesive society. You keep to talking about hate. I don't hate anyone, though the religion of moslems and their actions is very vexing for me. I am tired and am now leaving the forum. AS to morality, it is a deep issue, and we can come back to this later, howevwr if the new atheists are right, and everything humans do is a result of evolved genetic precursors for survival, and as Dawkins says, "we only dance to our genes", where does morality come from? Think on it. I later want to address the issue of abortion with you, and what the US Constitution and law say.,

Oxford English dictionary

Atheism : disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Anything you choose to add to that means you are bastardising the English language to suit your faith. Oh right.

We get these notions from the lies and abuse and misrepresentation offered up by Christians such as yourself

Morality is what makes you a human being.

 

[stevevw]

What segment of western society gives more and does more for the poor in the world than any other demographic?

How do you mean? I am not just talking about overseas aid but also helping people in their own countries. It's not so much about how much governments and people help but the fact that this ideal and standard are claimed to be great and the answer and yet it is not really happening. There's a pretence about a philosophical way of life being good when it's not and is probably the cause of most of the problems which will only get worse. Yet nobody acknowledges this and the charade continues and in fact is even promoted more as the solution to the problem. Its the same as people taking the moral high ground in world politics only to have secret agendas and be plotting underhanded deals and actions or sometimes turning the truth into a lie so they can do certain things which will give them advantage financially or with keeping power in the end.

 

[shmogie]

How do you mean? I am not just talking about overseas aid but also helping people in their own countries. It's not so much about how much governments and people help but the fact that this ideal and standard are claimed to be great and the answer and yet it is not really happening. There's a pretence about a philosophical way of life being good when it's not and is probably the cause of most of the problems which will only get worse. Yet nobody acknowledges this and the charade continues and in fact is even promoted more as the solution to the problem. Its the same as people taking the moral high ground in world politics only to have secret agendas and be plotting underhanded deals and actions or sometimes turning the truth into a lie so they can do certain things which will give them advantage financially or with keeping power in the end.

Well, I agree with most of what you have written. I was simply addressing the very large charitable contributions made by Christians, either singly or collectively in organizations. I think, but couldn't say for sure, that Christians
give more per person. Many churches have programs like stop smoking clinics or providing food and clothing for the indigent. These things are always ignored by the Christian haters.

 

[sayak83]

[

Oxford English dictionary

Atheism : disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Anything you choose to add to that means you are bastardising the English language to suit your faith. Oh right.

We get these notions from the lies and abuse and misrepresentation offered up by Christians such as yourself

Morality is what makes you a human being.

Morality makes us mammals. Ethics, the rational application and extension of moral dispositions through explicit systems in large scale society to maximize cooperative flourishing, is what makes us humans.

Otherwise the heroic rats who save their friend from drowning will be human.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/05/rats-forsake-chocolate-save-drowning-companion

 

[ChristineM]

[

Morality makes us mammals. Ethics, the rational application and extension of moral dispositions through explicit systems in large scale society to maximize cooperative flourishing, is what makes us humans.

Otherwise the heroic rats who save their friend from drowning will be human.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/05/rats-forsake-chocolate-save-drowning-companion

Point taken however there are different views

Only Humans Have Morality, Not Animals

Consider, the honey badger is a mammal.

Rats certainly have human characteristics or is it humans that have rat characteristics.

 

[shmogie]

[

Morality makes us mammals. Ethics, the rational application and extension of moral dispositions through explicit systems in large scale society to maximize cooperative flourishing, is what makes us humans.

Otherwise the heroic rats who save their friend from drowning will be human.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/05/rats-forsake-chocolate-save-drowning-companion

How can a being, such as we are, who, according to the new atheists are genetically programmed to do everything for survival and reproduction, develop ethics ? If the ethical standard is beyond survival and reproduction purposes, then the new atheists are wrong, and the ethics came about, how ?

 

[shmogie]

Oxford English dictionary

Atheism : disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Anything you choose to add to that means you are bastardising the English language to suit your faith. Oh right.

We get these notions from the lies and abuse and misrepresentation offered up by Christians such as yourself

Morality is what makes you a human being.

Hmmmmm. Instead of defining atheists, you ought to learn what a world view is.

 

[sayak83]

How can a being, such as we are, who, according to the new atheists are genetically programmed to do everything for survival and reproduction, develop ethics ? If the ethical standard is beyond survival and reproduction purposes, then the new atheists are wrong, and the ethics came about, how ?

Ethics is obviously for survival and reproduction. Note 7 billion humans, worldwide presence, attempted expansion into space etc. Cooperative development through groups have been the achievement of ethics and it has greatly enhanced human survival and numerousness.

 

[sayak83]

Hmmmmm. Instead of defining atheists, you ought to learn what a world view is.

Atheists don't have a worldview. Humanists do. A worldview must encompass all aspects of world and behavior and values. Atheism is simply non-belief in Gods.

 

[shmogie]

Ethics is obviously for survival and reproduction. Note 7 billion humans, worldwide presence, attempted expansion into space etc. Cooperative development through groups have been the achievement of ethics and it has greatly enhanced human survival and numerousness.

Ethically my kid shouldn't shoplift. If they do, and not get caught, they would certainly think whatever they stole contributes to their survival. Since they are a juvenile there will be no legal, ramifications. So why should I bother with it as a parent ? Perhaps the kid learned a valuable lesson in not getting caught the next time. From the evolutionary standpoint, I see no harm to anyone but perhaps the store owner. No threat to society, just a kid stealing a pack of baseball cards. A kid who the odds are will never become a true criminal. Since I am A Christian, my stand on this is obvious, and the kid is going to be marched back to the store and spend a lot of time grounded. In the Hitchkins world of humans dancing to their genes, why would this even matter ?