Is the moral standard of humanists better than God's?

[shmogie]

Lets start with the last paragraph first. Christians have every right to spend their money as they see fit. Since the Church is a very important part of their life, they support the Church. Like a large percentage of Christian's I spend much more every month on direct charities than the average American. I didn't write that for attaboys, I wrote it because, as a Christian, I am simply following through on my faith as millions and millions of Christian's do. There are many that do much, much, more. I haven't seen any statistics, but I would suggest that Christians are much more generous to honest (many non Christian) charities. In fact, Christians are manipulated because of their generosity. A few weeks ago I won a million dollars plus five thousand dollars a month for life from Publishers Clearing house ! The man giving me this grand news peppered his pitch with comments like " God has been so good to you" and "praise God" and "think what you can do for the less fortunate now", He didn't speak good English, and somehow I lost the phone number he gave me, before I could call (overseas) to contact the awards department to see what I had to do ($$) to get my prize.

Now, to your "anti Abrahamism". To lump Christianity together with islam as if there were some moral equivalency between them is ignorant ( lacking knowledge of history and the foundation beliefs) disgusting and personally very offensive to me. In addition the new atheist movement NEVER acknowledges the rape, butchery, torture, brutality and decimation brought to hundreds of millions by atheist led nations, as if atheism gets a pass for the destruction and murder.

Some quotations about the new atheists , Dawkin's, Hitichin's, Harris et. al. by OTHER prominent atheists. I post these in support of my contention that new atheists are ignorant of much they condemn, they replace intelligent discourse with base sarcasm and inflammatory language.They howl about the Bible making broad general statements without any proper exegesis and research. Their influence is seen in this forum, their written behavior proves this, their language locks it down.

Atheist Philosopher of science Michael Ruse says, " Dawkins arguments are so bad, I am embarrassed to be an atheist "

Terry Eagleton, English literature and cultural theory professor, "Ditchkins (his name for Dawkins/Hitchins) In an essay " they invariably come up with vulgar caricatures of religious faith that would make a first year theology student wince. The more they detest religion the more ill informed they become" Professor Quentin Smith, prominent atheist professor, who crowned Stephen Hawkings argument against God in a "Brief History of Time" as" the worst atheistic argument in the history of Western thought "says regarding the book "The God Delusion" " by Dawkins, The time has come to relieve Hawking of this weighty crown and to recognize Richard Dawkins accession to the throne " The quotations are specifically cited in the book " Contending with Christianity's Critic's; Answering New Atheists and Other Objectors"

I will continue later to post quotations from specific New Atheists, proving their ignorance of the Bible and their erroneous conclusions about Scripture. I of course continue answering questions.

 

[shmogie]

The fact they hold advanced qualifications shows they are not ignorant, they may be total dorks but certainly not ignorant.

Aww, and i have reading/writing problems with dyslexia and constant pain from a shrapnel wound so don't expect me to roll over because you have ms. The sympathy ploy does not work.

You claim the proof, show it rather than waffling in indignation.

So now you are griping about cultures you don't like?
Note that in recorded history over 800 million violent and premature deaths are attributed directly to religion, the highest proportion to Christianity.


Then i got bored with the irrelevant religious propaganda that is just so much preaching lies and ignorance so i skipped it. Seems you like to waffle a lot when you can't get your own way.

You have proven nothing but the fact you can stomp your foot in incredulity but fail to provide any citations or evidence to back you up

What you have proved is you have a very narrow opinion and a lot of anger




​

First, I am very sorry for your health problems, and if the shrapnel came as a result of military activities, thank you very much for your service.

I don't have anger, I am surprised you would say that. I do respond to an aggressive tone in the same way.

I have degree's, but I am totally ignorant on a plethora of subjects.

I have begun laying out my position against the new atheist's using quotations elsewhere on this thread, and will continue there. I am not going to duplicate efforts. Therefore please look elsewhere on this thread for those things

 

[columbus]

Since the Church is a very important part of their life, they support the Church. Like a large percentage of Christian's I spend much more every month on direct charities than the average American.

I am very confident that this is not true.
It is an easy mistake to make, because Christian apologists are good at conflating tax deductions with charity. But they aren't the same thing. Making a donation to a church isn't necessarily charity at all. Few churches spend more than 10-15% of tax deductible income on charity, many far less. The vast bulk of the money supports their own staff and buildings and programs. When they do charitable stuff, there's often self promoting strings attached.
Nontheist people generally do more charity for a batch of simple reasons.
A) They tend to have more education and so more disposable income.
B) They don't have a church to support, so it's a budget item that doesn't impact their ability to make charitable donations. And they don't get the misguided opinion that giving to a church is charity.
C) The tax freeloading churches drain the government. From deductible church support to nonpayment of property taxes, the religious clubs lack of contributions are a big part of the reason that the USA is such a piker in international humanitarian aid.
And the Christian politicians who run this place like to confuse military aid for humanitarian aid. As those a billion dollars worth of armaments donated to Israel is the equivalent of a billion dollars worth of mosquito netting or drinking water equipment or whatever donated to somebody in Africa.

Sorry. Here in the USA Christian religious organizations are a drain on charitable giving that nontheists don't have. So we give more.
Tom

 

[sayak83]

Some quotations about the new atheists , Dawkin's, Hitichin's, Harris et. al. by OTHER prominent atheists. I post these in support of my contention that new atheists are ignorant of much they condemn, they replace intelligent discourse with base sarcasm and inflammatory language.They howl about the Bible making broad general statements without any proper exegesis and research. Their influence is seen in this forum, their written behavior proves this, their language locks it down.

Atheist Philosopher of science Michael Ruse says, " Dawkins arguments are so bad, I am embarrassed to be an atheist "

Terry Eagleton, English literature and cultural theory professor, "Ditchkins (his name for Dawkins/Hitchins) In an essay " they invariably come up with vulgar caricatures of religious faith that would make a first year theology student wince. The more they detest religion the more ill informed they become" Professor Quentin Smith, prominent atheist professor, who crowned Stephen Hawkings argument against God in a "Brief History of Time" as" the worst atheistic argument in the history of Western thought "says regarding the book "The God Delusion" " by Dawkins, The time has come to relieve Hawking of this weighty crown and to recognize Richard Dawkins accession to the throne " The quotations are specifically cited in the book " Contending with Christianity's Critic's; Answering New Atheists and Other Objectors"

I will continue later to post quotations from specific New Atheists, proving their ignorance of the Bible and their erroneous conclusions about Scripture. I of course continue answering questions.

So the only thing you can come up with is quote mines from others? This should be simple, provide a specific quote section from a specific chapter of God Delusion so that we can look it up. We have the book. It then becomes a simple matter of discussing the content of the quote.
Sorry to hear you are suffering from MS. My love and best wishes to you and your family.

 

[ChristineM]

First, I am very sorry for your health problems, and if the shrapnel came as a result of military activities, thank you very much for your service.

I don't have anger, I am surprised you would say that. I do respond to an aggressive tone in the same way.

I have degree's, but I am totally ignorant on a plethora of subjects.

I have begun laying out my position against the new atheist's using quotations elsewhere on this thread, and will continue there. I am not going to duplicate efforts. Therefore please look elsewhere on this thread for those things

No it came as a result of a Christian terrorist bomb.

I am not bothered what you said elsewhere, only what you said to me. And in that i see anger and intolerance.

 

[ChristineM]

Lets start with the last paragraph first. Christians have every right to spend their money as they see fit. Since the Church is a very important part of their life, they support the Church. Like a large percentage of Christian's I spend much more every month on direct charities than the average American. I didn't write that for attaboys, I wrote it because, as a Christian, I am simply following through on my faith as millions and millions of Christian's do. There are many that do much, much, more. I haven't seen any statistics, but I would suggest that Christians are much more generous to honest (many non Christian) charities. In fact, Christians are manipulated because of their generosity. A few weeks ago I won a million dollars plus five thousand dollars a month for life from Publishers Clearing house ! The man giving me this grand news peppered his pitch with comments like " God has been so good to you" and "praise God" and "think what you can do for the less fortunate now", He didn't speak good English, and somehow I lost the phone number he gave me, before I could call (overseas) to contact the awards department to see what I had to do ($$) to get my prize.

Now, to your "anti Abrahamism". To lump Christianity together with islam as if there were some moral equivalency between them is ignorant ( lacking knowledge of history and the foundation beliefs) disgusting and personally very offensive to me. In addition the new atheist movement NEVER acknowledges the rape, butchery, torture, brutality and decimation brought to hundreds of millions by atheist led nations, as if atheism gets a pass for the destruction and murder.

Actually the statistics and studies suggest atheist donate more to charity than either Christian or Muslim and it is a tennet of the Muslim faith to donate what you are able.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/nonreligious-children-are-more-generous

Atheists are the most generous—even without heavenly reward!

Also note that through out history more then 800 million premature and violent deaths are directly attributed to religion. No one has ever died as a direct result of atheism?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Lets start with the last paragraph first. Christians have every right to spend their money as they see fit. Since the Church is a very important part of their life, they support the Church. Like a large percentage of Christian's I spend much more every month on direct charities than the average American. I didn't write that for attaboys, I wrote it because, as a Christian, I am simply following through on my faith as millions and millions of Christian's do. There are many that do much, much, more. I haven't seen any statistics, but I would suggest that Christians are much more generous to honest (many non Christian) charities. In fact, Christians are manipulated because of their generosity.

Nevertheless, money given to the church isn't available for the needy.

A few weeks ago I won a million dollars plus five thousand dollars a month for life from Publishers Clearing house ! The man giving me this grand news peppered his pitch with comments like " God has been so good to you" and "praise God" and "think what you can do for the less fortunate now", He didn't speak good English, and somehow I lost the phone number he gave me, before I could call (overseas) to contact the awards department to see what I had to do ($$) to get my prize.

Nigeria?

Now, to your "anti Abrahamism". To lump Christianity together with islam as if there were some moral equivalency between them is ignorant ( lacking knowledge of history and the foundation beliefs) disgusting and personally very offensive to me.

Sorry.

You and I have discussed this before before about you finding the opinions of unbelievers offensive. I think that if you want to participate in an activity like this one, you should think about whether it's appropriate to express offense at opinions that you find unflattering. I read them every day and can't remember the last time I told anybody that they offended me or expressed an emotional reaction about it..

In addition the new atheist movement NEVER acknowledges the rape, butchery, torture, brutality and decimation brought to hundreds of millions by atheist led nations, as if atheism gets a pass for the destruction and murder.

Why would humanists mention brutal Communist regimes except to condemn them? Atheist doesn't tell you what we are. It tells what we are not. Most of us are secular humanists. As such, ...

"We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence" - Affirmations of Humanism

 

[shmogie]

Nevertheless, money given to the church isn't available for the needy.



Nigeria?



Sorry.

You and I have discussed this before before about you finding the opinions of unbelievers offensive. I think that if you want to participate in an activity like this one, you should think about whether it's appropriate to express offense at opinions that you find unflattering. I read them every day and can't remember the last time I told anybody that they offended me or expressed an emotional reaction about it..



Why would humanists mention brutal Communist regimes except to condemn them? Atheist doesn't tell you what we are. It tells what we are not. Most of us are secular humanists. As such, ...

"We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence" - Affirmations of Humanism

Ah, so now you are playing the game with me. When I told you it was wrong to consider those alleged Christians, who did decidedly obviously un Christian as Christians, you did not accept that. Now however, atheists who murdered hundreds of millions ( the death of one person is a tragedy, the death a million is a statistic- Stalin) are somehow separate from other atheists............. Exactly how does that double standard exist. ? You tell me "humanists" should be considered differently than other atheists, but.............. isn't that a distinction like I tried to make between Christians who act like Christians, and those alleged Christians that do things totally against the Christian fa that you absolutely refused to accept ? The murders of Hitler
Stalin
Mao
Pol Pot
The Government of viet nam
The government of pre soviet collapse Poland
The government of pre soviet hungary cheucescu in romania eastern germany

and others were responsible for hundreds of millions of murders in the name of committed atheism and you tell me atheists like yourself should not be considered as having any dirty hands from this but Christians are condemned for much less killing, and a legal system that existed in a tiny place 3,000 years ago, by you and ditchkins et. al.?Can you say hypocrysy ?

 

[shmogie]

Actually the statistics and studies suggest atheist donate more to charity than either Christian or Muslim and it is a tennet of the Muslim faith to donate what you are able.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/nonreligious-children-are-more-generous

Atheists are the most generous—even without heavenly reward!

Also note that through out history more then 800 million premature and violent deaths are directly attributed to religion. No one has ever died as a direct result of atheism?

What about the American genocide of abortion ?

 

[shmogie]

What about the American genocide of abortion ?

I find that your cited great giving atheists give to quasi political left wing causes, Not the same at all.

 

[shmogie]

No it came as a result of a Christian terrorist bomb.

I am not bothered what you said elsewhere, only what you said to me. And in that i see anger and intolerance.

Sorry, but there is no such thing as a Christian terrorist. One can be a Christian or a terrorist, but not both. Well, there is no anger, and you will have to specify those things of which I am intolerant.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Ah, so now you are playing the game with me. When I told you it was wrong to consider those alleged Christians, who did decidedly obviously un Christian as Christians, you did not accept that. Now however, atheists who murdered hundreds of millions ( the death of one person is a tragedy, the death a million is a statistic- Stalin) are somehow separate from other atheists............. Exactly how does that double standard exist. ? You tell me "humanists" should be considered differently than other atheists, but.............. isn't that a distinction like I tried to make between Christians who act like Christians, and those alleged Christians that do things totally against the Christian fa that you absolutely refused to accept ? The murders of Hitler
Stalin
Mao
Pol Pot
The Government of viet nam
The government of pre soviet collapse Poland
The government of pre soviet hungary cheucescu in romania eastern germany

and others were responsible for hundreds of millions of murders in the name of committed atheism and you tell me atheists like yourself should not be considered as having any dirty hands from this but Christians are condemned for much less killing, and a legal system that existed in a tiny place 3,000 years ago, by you and ditchkins et. al.?Can you say hypocrysy ?

Actually, it's you playing the game here. The thread is comparing the ethics of humanism with those ascribed to God, which I take to mean the god of the Christian Bible. That's a proper comparison.

When you transform "humanism" into "athiesm" and compare that to Christianity, you're making a category error. You need to compare atheism to theism, or a particular atheistic ideology to a particular religion. By switching from humanism to atheism, you bring in ideologies with are antithetical to humanism and repudiated by it, yet you want to hang that on humanists using this category trick of yours.

You objected that "atheists like yourself should not be considered as having any dirty hands from this." Of course we do, just as theist like yourself should object to my blaming Christian theists for the barbarism of the Aztecs who pulled beating hearts out of victims or islanders that throw virgin girls into burning volcanoes.

All that we humanists have in common with the Communist dictators is atheism, and probably aleprechaunism and avampirism as well. What we both don't believe doesn't really make us kindred spirits.

Those totalitarian regimes have much more in common with religions like Christianity than secular humanism. They just substitute a man for the god, who issues commandments without giving reasons, doesn't debate or negotiate them, and expects complete submission and obedience under threat of retributive punishment. Sound familiar? Jehovah and Stalin have all of that in common.

So I give those Communist regimes back to you authoritarians. We're the freedom ideology, the one that respects the dignity of man, celebrates his accomplishments and potential, and wants him to be all that he can be: free, well educated, autonomous, citizens living in a just society, each free to pursue happiness as he envisions it within the limits of a just and rational body of law intended to safeguard those same opportunities for others, laws that citizens write together when selected by other citizen to do that job.

You won't find those humanist ideals in Stalinism or in the Christian Bible:

"The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion. The problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship.- Sam Harris

 

[ChristineM]

What about the American genocide of abortion ?

Ok, lets put your question to statistical test. The US accounts for about 5% of the world population, only about half are female. Of that 2.5% only about 25% are of childbearing age.
Of that 4.3 million only about 4% are pregnant at any given time. So ov 173,000 pregnancies some will have abortions for whatever reason. One thing is sure, that reason is nothing to do with you.

Then we take the statistical fact that 70% of women in america who have abortions identify with Christianity. That takes care of your let's blame the atheist stance.

Then of course we take onto account that in general law, a fetus in the first trimester is not human so you genocide claim is also debunked.







Ok, statistics show

 

[ChristineM]

Sorry, but there is no such thing as a Christian terrorist. One can be a Christian or a terrorist, but not both. Well, there is no anger, and you will have to specify those things of which I am intolerant.

Ignorant Nonsense.

Kkk, Ilaga, anti balaka, lra, nlft, ira, nscn, maronite christian militias, army of god to name just a few

Please be good enough to Google them to see just how wrong you are.

You are intolerant of opinions that do not jel with your interpretation of your faith.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

What about the American genocide of abortion ?

I'm afraid that that one is yours as well. In 1973, the year that Roe v Wade was decided, all seven justices voting for abortion rights in the 7-2 were Christians

1973 Supreme Court:

Blackmun Methodist
Burger Presbyterian
Brennan Catholic
Douglas Presbyterian
Marshal Episcopalian
Powell Presbyterian
Renquist Lutheran
Stewart Episcopalian
White Episcopalian

And who's getting these abortions?

70% of Women Who Get Abortions Identify as Christians, Survey Finds

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

@shmogie

It might help you to keep in mind that these apologetics memes and talking points are developed for believers to reinforce one another - people who are eager to uncritically imbibe any derogatory idea they hear about atheists.

In that setting, the ideas you present such as trying to tie Communism and abortion to humanism will be warmly received.

But you find that you'll get a different kind of response from the people that the church is attempting to derogate - atheists, in this case.

It's really not too hard to deconstruct these accusations and in many cases retroflex them back onto their source. I advise you to keep your apologetics for safe venues. Smear atheists to other Christians, and you will discover that you have a receptive audience. Smear atheists to atheists, and you might find the response an embarrassment. I trust that you now see that legalizing abortion is a Christian idea, and that it is predominantly Christian women and girls availing themselves of the option. Do you agree with me there?

I'm glad that you kept politics out of this. Normally, when defending these charges, it's not just atheists, but liberal atheists that are accused of this Christian "genocide" as you call it. You wouldn't like the breakdown on the party of the president who appointed those seven justices that voted with the majority.

An observation: What I am doing is what many Christians call militant atheism, which they see as an impious, uppity, and unprovoked outburst from angry god haters. Notice that what it is is a reaction to a dishonest campaign intended to continue marginalizing and demonizing unbelievers as the church has always done. I realize how angry it often makes you. Sorry in advance, but you must agree that we have the right and duty to object to and counter such treatment.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

One more observation: Those are the ethics of Christian apologetics - the values, tools, and methods we are accustomed to seeing from people with an agenda to promote Christianity.

What are we to think of a system whose two main weapons for sustaining and propagating itself are deception and indoctrinating children before they develop critical thinking skills? What value should I place on an institution that understands that it cannot survive presenting honest arguments to mature minds?

Fortunately, Christianity no longer uses the sword for that purpose as it did from the days of Constantine until those of the Spanish Conquistadores.

Anyway, I hope you don't mind if I compared humanist ethics to those of Christian apologists rather than the god of the Bible as the OP directed us to do

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Sorry, but there is no such thing as a Christian terrorist. One can be a Christian or a terrorist, but not both.

No True Scotsman fallacy.

Christian terrorism in the US

The Klan is the poster child for Christian terrorism. Abortion clinic bombings and the murder of physicians performing abortions are Christian terrorism. Robert Lewis Dear's recent mass murder in a Planned Parenthood facility to prevent "baby killers" from "trafficking in baby parts for profit" was Christian terrorism, where terrorism is defined as violence or the threat of violence intended to instill fear and coerce behavior.

Incidentally, telling a child about hell is a form of terrorism.

 

[shmogie]

No True Scotsman fallacy.

Christian terrorism in the US

The Klan is the poster child for Christian terrorism. Abortion clinic bombings and the murder of physicians performing abortions are Christian terrorism. Robert Lewis Dear's recent mass murder in a Planned Parenthood facility to prevent "baby killers" from "trafficking in baby parts for profit" was Christian terrorism, where terrorism is defined as violence or the threat of violence intended to instill fear and coerce behavior.

Incidentally, telling a child about hell is a form of terrorism.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Go to the NT and read what a Christians believes and the resultant required behavior to be a Christian. It cannot be squared with what some alleged Christians have done, ergo they aren;t Christians. Perhaps you need to develop a label like "professed Christians" or "alleged Christians" or " self identified Christians " for recipients of your vitriol. YOU KNOW that all of this behavior is totally contrary to Christianity theology and belief. Telling a child to be careful of strangers because they might be harmed is also child abuse by your standard.

BTW, The national manhunt a few weeks ago for a guy who burglarized a gun store and made threats to kill people, was a vocal supporter for his worldview/faith, atheism

 

[shmogie]

@shmogie

It might help you to keep in mind that these apologetics memes and talking points are developed for believers to reinforce one another - people who are eager to uncritically imbibe any derogatory idea they hear about atheists.

In that setting, the ideas you present such as trying to tie Communism and abortion to humanism will be warmly received.

But you find that you'll get a different kind of response from the people that the church is attempting to derogate - atheists, in this case.

It's really not too hard to deconstruct these accusations and in many cases retroflex them back onto their source. I advise you to keep your apologetics for safe venues. Smear atheists to other Christians, and you will discover that you have a receptive audience. Smear atheists to atheists, and you might find the response an embarrassment. I trust that you now see that legalizing abortion is a Christian idea, and that it is predominantly Christian women and girls availing themselves of the option. Do you agree with me there?

I'm glad that you kept politics out of this. Normally, when defending these charges, it's not just atheists, but liberal atheists that are accused of this Christian "genocide" as you call it. You wouldn't like the breakdown on the party of the president who appointed those seven justices that voted with the majority.

An observation: What I am doing is what many Christians call militant atheism, which they see as an impious, uppity, and unprovoked outburst from angry god haters. Notice that what it is is a reaction to a dishonest campaign intended to continue marginalizing and demonizing unbelievers as the church has always done. I realize how angry it often makes you. Sorry in advance, but you must agree that we have the right and duty to object to and counter such treatment.

I don't understand your point. Atheism is a world view. It says that there is no ultimate right or wrong, no afterlife, no final judgement. In my view this has encouraged the brutal behavior of the atheists I have noted, You say you are an atheist Humanist, that's fine I have studied humanism and their approach has many positive points. Nevertheless, I don't understand why you think atheists should be insulated from one another re their behavior, but Christians are continually grouped together and judged en masse by you for their individual or group behaviors that are wrong or wrong in your opinion. An atheist is an atheist and what ever they do individually or in a group they are still atheists. That;s your rule for alleged Christians, this will be my rule for evil atheists, I don't care if you are a "militant atheist" I have engaged folk who consider themselves such before. No problem for me as I am happy to defend my faith before anyone.