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Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?

firedragon

Veteran Member
ETA ~It seems reasonable to me that during Muhammad's years as a trader he would have a learned a great deal about the various versions of Abrahamic religion in the region. The version he kept probably was the most plausible he heard.~

Yep. A lot of people make this same statement, but you are making the wrong allusion. Your statement does not make it "probable", what you mean is actually "possibly". A historian will not say "probably" with out have hard evidence or an actual environmental setting with factual historical records. What you are stating is "a possibility", not a "probability".

Hope you understand. Anyway, that's not relevant. The post is not about "how Muhammed got the information".
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Yep. A lot of people make this same statement, but you are making the wrong allusion. Your statement does not make it "probable", what you mean is actually "possibly". A historian will not say "probably" with out have hard evidence or an actual environmental setting with factual historical records. What you are stating is "a possibility", not a "probability".

Hope you understand. Anyway, that's not relevant. The post is not about "how Muhammed got the information".
I'm not entirely sure what you're disagreeing about except usage of the word "probable". I'm not claiming to be an historian or scholar.
My edit was only to explain why Muhammad likely knew a great deal about the various peoples in the region and their lore. So he developed an opinion about which were more plausible than others. Is that what you're disagreeing with?
Otherwise, I don't understand.
Tom
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I'm not entirely sure what you're disagreeing about except usage of the word "probable". I'm not claiming to be an historian or scholar.
My edit was only to explain why Muhammad likely knew a great deal about the various peoples in the region and their lore. So he developed an opinion about which were more plausible than others. Is that what you're disagreeing with?
Otherwise, I don't understand.
Tom

Yes you are right. Historically it is possible that Muhammed learned from all of these people. Yes of course I was responding to your word "probable". Anything is possible. You are going with your faith that its "possible" that Muhammed learned these things from Jews he met in his business travels, and some others say he met Arian Christians, then unorthodox Jews, then gnostic christians, and some Sabians who some believe were only following old teachings of Abraham, some others say he met Doctors, and some others say he met sailors etc etc etc. These are all possibilities. Endless possibilities.

These are assumptions. Not probabilities. A probability is something a historian will come out with after taking painful effort. e.g. make a full analysis of whatever roman history that is available to get a picture of the historical setting of Judaia 2000 years ago and place the Jesus character into that setting in order to understand "what probably went on". To come with this probability some scholars spent 10 to 15 years. Just to come up with a "probability".

I hope you understand. I am telling you this because I can see you have a sound mind.

Cheers.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
How quaint, lashing out at those that don't share in your beliefs.

What?
Let me get this right.......... do you claim that the whole bible is a myth?
If you do then why would you object to such a title?

Of course, if, for example, you believe in some of it then you are NOT a myther, should not wear such a badge.........

Well? All myth? Not all myth?

What do you say?
 

lukethethird

unknown member
What?
Let me get this right.......... do you claim that the whole bible is a myth?
If you do then why would you object to such a title?

Of course, if, for example, you believe in some of it then you are NOT a myther, should not wear such a badge.........

Well? All myth? Not all myth?

What do you say?
Pontius Pilate makes an appearance in this fantasy, he's otherwise an historical figure.
 

VoidoftheSun

Necessary Heretical, Fundamentally Orthodox
The Quran was written 600, yes SIX HUNDRED, years after Jesus. Why would anyone use it as a historical document?

It's a revelation (direct speech of God, literally every Surah is God telling Muhammad things, as God told Moses things), so historical and ahistorical are both irrelevant and incorrect frames of viewing it. The Qur'an is always a book about the present day, not the past nor the future, but the present.
To treat the Qur'an as history would be like treating the Torah as history. (although the format of the Torah isn't as direct as the Qur'an, and varies in it's narrators etc)

Obviously revelations have a different kind of categorization.
For Muslims though, the Qur'an is literally the theophany. Not the physical book but the speech itself.
The two comparisons are that for Jews the theophany is the event on Mount Sinai (purportedly heard by thousands) and for Christians it is the person of Jesus.

You have to contextually understand it as such or else you are walking around flinging strawmen.
 

VoidoftheSun

Necessary Heretical, Fundamentally Orthodox
It seems pretty clear to me?

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Unless you want to say 'Oh, but it doesn't say the Romans never killed him', it surely could have told us that the Romans were the ones who actually killed him? But it doesn't; it says someone died in Jesus' place, leading us to believe Jesus never died on a cross at all. This is a well known heterodox Christian claim.

It's worth noting that this has been a long debated thing in Christianity too. They've never been able to rectify the nature of Jesus.
The doctrine of the Trinity was in part an attempt to stamp out the debate once and for all but only caused more problems.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Pontius Pilate makes an appearance in this fantasy, he's otherwise an historical figure.
Well at least you'll not be using the word 'myth' quite so much.

So you've found some verses with historical foundation? This is wonderful!

Now for some more....... do you think the great Temple was/is a myth?

One step at a time.
 

VoidoftheSun

Necessary Heretical, Fundamentally Orthodox
Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?
Not at all, and let me prove it.
The Quran say this Jesus was not killed on the cross, someone else was made to look as if it was Jesus.


In this case the Quran accuses Jesus as a false messiah who made someone else die in his place, and the witnesses who saw the crucifiction was deceived by Allah.

Where? the Qur'an quite explicitly just calls Jesus the messiah, not false messiah:

When the angels said: O Mary, surely God gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
(Qur'an, Surah 3:45)

O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against God, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary is only an apostle of God and His Word which He communicated to Mary and a spirit from Him....
(Qur'an, Surah 4:171)


The Messiah, son of Mary is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.
(Qur'an, Surah 5:75)

They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides God, and (also) the Messiah son of Mary and they were enjoined that they should serve one God only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).
(Qur'an, Surah 9:31)



Besides it's pretty common knowledge that the Qur'an (and Islam) doesn't consider Jesus a false-messiah, so you're just a liar.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member



Where? the Qur'an quite explicitly just calls Jesus the messiah, not false messiah:

When the angels said: O Mary, surely God gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
(Qur'an, Surah 3:45)

O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against God, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary is only an apostle of God and His Word which He communicated to Mary and a spirit from Him....
(Qur'an, Surah 4:171)


The Messiah, son of Mary is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.
(Qur'an, Surah 5:75)

They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides God, and (also) the Messiah son of Mary and they were enjoined that they should serve one God only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).
(Qur'an, Surah 9:31)



Besides it's pretty common knowledge that the Qur'an (and Islam) doesn't consider Jesus a false-messiah, so you're just a liar.

Brother. In the video you had shared, he says the Quran says "Jesus was not crucified but one like him". Well, the Quran doesn't say that. What I found strange is he even said that he would analyze some arabic phrases. Yet, this is misquoted. Thats 4:157.

He also says in the next verse it says "this". No. It does not say "believe in this", it says "believe in him". This would be "bi hadha" but in this verse says "bi hee". This gentleman has got it complete wrong. I am pretty surprised actually.

4:159
And from the people of the Book are those who refused to believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be witness against them.

That was right at the beginning of the video. What I think is, he is completely mislead, and does not have any knowledge in the Arabic language so he cannot analyze what's being said really. I wonder why he said that he will analyze some arabic phrases if that is the case.

Anyway, analyze it. He was absolutely wrong.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Well at least you'll not be using the word 'myth' quite so much.

So you've found some verses with historical foundation? This is wonderful!

Now for some more....... do you think the great Temple was/is a myth?

One step at a time.
The story is about a godman, a super hero with supernatural powers that performs miracles. The story is mythology/theology, about a savior and redeemer of mankind. Is the protagonist based on an actual person? Perhaps, perhaps not, who knows? Who cares? If you want to formulate beliefs of an historical nature by reading The Bible that is your prerogative, not mine. I prefer to appreciate theology and mythology for what it is, in this case a work if literary art.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The story is about a godman, a super hero with supernatural powers that performs miracles. The story is mythology/theology, about a savior and redeemer of mankind. Is the protagonist based on an actual person? Perhaps, perhaps not, who knows? Who cares? If you want to formulate beliefs of an historical nature by reading The Bible that is your prerogative, not mine. I prefer to appreciate theology and mythology for what it is, in this case a work if literary art.

The thread is specific. Read the op.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The story is about a godman, a super hero with supernatural powers that performs miracles. The story is mythology/theology, about a savior and redeemer of mankind. Is the protagonist based on an actual person? Perhaps, perhaps not, who knows? Who cares? If you want to formulate beliefs of an historical nature by reading The Bible that is your prerogative, not mine. I prefer to appreciate theology and mythology for what it is, in this case a work if literary art.
That's up to you.
I haven't got anything against mythers, it's just that once I know them I can relax with them and discuss other subjects, archery, sailing, best cameras, whatever, but they can't provide me with any info about HJ so that's ok.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
That's up to you.
I haven't got anything against mythers, it's just that once I know them I can relax with them and discuss other subjects, archery, sailing, best cameras, whatever, but they can't provide me with any info about HJ so that's ok.
The oldest Christian writings we have are the epistles, notably the seven attributed to Paul. If you want to read about an itinerant preacher from the first century...
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I read the OP, my answer is the same. The NT is completely concerned with theology/mythology, if there is anything historical within, how would we know? The Quran is late.

Strange you read the OP but didn't understand it. It does not have the NT. And it is not asking if "the Quran is a historical document", it is asking if these particular information which is central in the Quran are historical.

If the Quran was written yesterday, the question is still valid.

Cheers.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
1. The Jews claim they killed Jesus (Doesn't say Romans), yet they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him says the Qur'an - 4:157

2. Jesus was called the "Messiah". - 3:45

3. Jesus had followers, him, and his followers preached a theology - 61:14

4. He spoke to the Jews - 5:46, 72

Rather than considering the theological points and all the apologetics on the internet and TV, it would be interesting to just think of these simple historical claims and wonder if it is actually historical objectively.

What you have to say?
Does science own the early age death of humans today, yet humans are still healthy and living in a science status?

Yes.....same story as before.

When you apply a science assessment, the occult UFO condition upon the natural life...if you write the DATA after the fact of all evidence are you not also still alive, and not sacrificed, and hence would make that claim. But also make the claim, yet honour the information of what occurred?

Now what did the Jews have that the Romans never own?

A Temple in Jeru salem where the circuit Temple science and pyramid turned.

Rome had science occult Temples for trans mutation of God...the stone products.....just as all technological cities had.

But the placement of that science model depended on Jeru salem...as a position on the Earth relating to cosmological theories and their science machination.

UFO positions and radiation dispersion, release of.

So the Jewish community said to everyone, you evil Satanists in science forced our lives to be the worst sacrificed human community living as a DNA nation on Planet Earth. So said the Messenger, meaning asteroid Saviour gases were being burnt out, that had kept Jerusalem safe from the first Moses attack history of Egypt, irradiation burnt out history.

How it was explained rationally and known historically and then cult sciences forbidden by all brothers upon the Christ Revelations, DATA that said BC...before the Christ gases own presence, irradiation mass is burning that body out.

How it was taught...so males never believed that this form of science would ever be practiced again as a ONE GOD agreement....of all scientists previously involved in causing it.

Science actually as the Destroyer psyche compared to medical Healer biological sciences cares less about what they destroy or who they harm as human mentalists and have proven that human condition many times before.

Argument......Jeru salem worst radiation attack on ground....so the other communities said they caused it.

Argument......Rome once owned highest control of that form of science/trade.

Argument......Rome was therefore at fault for owning and control of it.

Argument....Muslims took over pyramids and Jerusalem Temple and re practiced it.....said it was their fault.

How the argument existed.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Does science own the early age death of humans today, yet humans are still healthy and living in a science status?

Yes.....same story as before.

When you apply a science assessment, the occult UFO condition upon the natural life...if you write the DATA after the fact of all evidence are you not also still alive, and not sacrificed, and hence would make that claim. But also make the claim, yet honour the information of what occurred?

Now what did the Jews have that the Romans never own?

A Temple in Jeru salem where the circuit Temple science and pyramid turned.

Rome had science occult Temples for trans mutation of God...the stone products.....just as all technological cities had.

But the placement of that science model depended on Jeru salem...as a position on the Earth relating to cosmological theories and their science machination.

UFO positions and radiation dispersion, release of.

So the Jewish community said to everyone, you evil Satanists in science forced our lives to be the worst sacrificed human community living as a DNA nation on Planet Earth. So said the Messenger, meaning asteroid Saviour gases were being burnt out, that had kept Jerusalem safe from the first Moses attack history of Egypt, irradiation burnt out history.

How it was explained rationally and known historically and then cult sciences forbidden by all brothers upon the Christ Revelations, DATA that said BC...before the Christ gases own presence, irradiation mass is burning that body out.

How it was taught...so males never believed that this form of science would ever be practiced again as a ONE GOD agreement....of all scientists previously involved in causing it.

Science actually as the Destroyer psyche compared to medical Healer biological sciences cares less about what they destroy or who they harm as human mentalists and have proven that human condition many times before.

Argument......Jeru salem worst radiation attack on ground....so the other communities said they caused it.

Argument......Rome once owned highest control of that form of science/trade.

Argument......Rome was therefore at fault for owning and control of it.

Argument....Muslims took over pyramids and Jerusalem Temple and re practiced it.....said it was their fault.

How the argument existed.

How is that relevant to the OP?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
How is that relevant to the OP?
You state a theme just thought in your own thoughts about a self assessment on literature written by other humans and state that how you think about it is the only correct reasoning.

Muslim science said, you discussed Jesus as if man, the human died sacrificed.

They stated in their science review that MAN, their human life never went anywhere...they were not the sacrificed life. What their scientist said.

Therefore when a Muslim science theme taught, so the Temple sciences and pyramid did not sacrifice us, why do you think they tried to take back over the stopped Temple/pyramid science, after the Jesus life sacrifice review....and reapply it?

The male mentality in science, I am still living, I was not sacrificed hence I will continue being and applying science.

The sort of human conscious spiritual reasoning about consciousness that was the actual thesis of that DATA study to reference no MAN is God the One, being the stone planet first and origin.

All DATA and its teaching updates are written after the fact of life attacked and sacrificed by GOD the stone...and a new gain of a new Messenger.

Moses got stone from out of space hitting us.
Jesus got stone from out of space hitting us in the Second Coming, why the Temple science, temple toppled science stopped by fighting wars.

As it was elite control after all that owned and supported the technology.

Blame is about purpose, a review. To review why the Jews were blamed...they owned the Temple that caused the changes in their country. They were the worst climate/DNA attacked. So they said the elite land holder/owner was at fault...for they were just living there.

Roman control and Jewish control and Muslim control of that technology is the argument...who owned the control in the period of why life was attacked, and when it was reattacked.

As a study of the male science self destructive mentality.

“The first time [Christ] came to slay sin in men. The second time He will come to slay men in sin.” ― A. W. Pink

The Second Coming of Christ. This is the day that all things will be righted. Jesus will return in order to judge the living and the dead, and to raise the dead from their graves, and remove every trace of sin and its corruption.

SIN historically was light gases burning in the body of God the fallen angel O stone planet Earth...as original sin, which you all overlook in science references.

To remove SIN would be to have the light gases in our Heavenly mass removed.....as a science statement its corruption which was by the SUN history, reset alight....for it had in fact been cold and clear its highest form. Coldest form.

3) Revelation 1:7 “Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.”

The body of God the Earth was newly pierced in science by the SINK HOLES.

7) 2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.”

23) Matthew 24:36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

24) Luke 21:34-36 “But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

If you asked a basic question to the humans who survived being life irradiated in the past who believed in the Christ Revelations, the multitude who witnessed it, would tell you why.

If you ask a country about why they own a religious ceremony where the humanity moves around a fallen stone that hits the Earth in mathematical spatial cosmological theories....then you would understand why.

Male egotism in science, when science re emerges as a theme conscious awareness, do you not always espouse that you now own some higher ideal than your brothers before you in science, as if you suddenly were given new destructive advice and then believe in it?

As the male history I never knew about destructive references until I was sacrificed, so preached life was sacrificed so you would not listen to your owned self destructive scientific egotism? That said MATHS was spatial cold womb Holy Mother in creation and hence you no longer lived that reasoning...but was living a form of ARK landing attack that was moving you closer to the giant theme of when the giant race (dinosaurs) ruled the Earth and said it was Holy Mother/daughter spirit heavens gas abomination as that teaching?

Why you said the Holy Mother spatial 0 cold womb was Holy Creator and daughter was when the sacrifice and attack occurred as a maths teaching in relativity?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The oldest Christian writings we have are the epistles, notably the seven attributed to Paul. If you want to read about an itinerant preacher from the first century...
I don't....... read Paul's letters.
They have no value for me.
Paul never once described anything that Jesus actually did .......... nothing. Not one anecdote about any time, and incident, etc. So although I can see that Paul was a real person he cannot help a student of HJ.
 
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