Is the Quran only for Muslims?

[gnostic]

I had read the Qur'an as a work of literature, just as I do with Tanakh and bible, the Greek Theogony, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, or any other scriptures that I have read or will read in the future.

• I read it because I fascinate by the stories found in them, which is the most important reason to me.
• I read it because it allow me some insights to why they believe in the religion that they followed.
• I am fascinated of where their sources originated.

None of the above points I had made, requires me TO ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN ANY OF STORIES OR LITERATURE TO BEING "TRUE".

My point is that anyone can read it, whether they be Muslims or non-Muslims.

Each person can read what they read and what they believe in, as they see fit. Just as I do.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I have read the Qur'an many times and I found it unimpressive honestly.

Some highlights about it though are that it is by no means as narrative as the Bible and also has far less magical and mythical elements init. It reads more like a philosophical book if anything.
So it is sometimes unreadable and bland but this is to be expected because of the linguistic conversion.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Topic title: Is the Quran only for Muslims?

Well i've got a sneaking suspicion that it's not for non-muslims..

[Koran 5.51] "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends"
[Koran 9.123] "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"

 

[Aamer]

Well i've got a sneaking suspicion that it's not for non-muslims..

[Koran 5.51] "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends"
[Koran 9.123] "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"

Your "Koran" is not translated properly. The Arabic word used in 5:51 is "Awliya". This means "protectors or allies". NOT "friends". You are also quoting out of context. Showing what you want to show and hiding what you want hide.

Statement: You should punish all Christians who molest children.
Out of Context: You should punish all Christians.

See how that's cheating? See how easy it is to twist meanings by taking words out of context?

Now let's see what the Quran REALLY says about violence towards Christians, Jews, nonbelievers, etc.

Violence is permitted in the Quran under 3 conditions. I aim to show here that ISIS & other such groups are in complete violation of Quranic law.

Establishing the 3 conditions under which violence is permitted according to the Quran:
I'm using Adel Haleem's translation. It's well written, NOT funded by Saudi Arabia or those aiming to deceive & doesn't have a bias towards any particular sect. Feel free to check the verses with any translation that you trust.

Condition #1: SELF DEFENSE
First, here is the famous "kill them where you find them" verse:
4:89 They would dearly like you to reject faith, as they themselves have done, to be like them. So do not take them as allies until they migrate [to Medina] for God’s cause. If they turn [on you], then seize and kill them wherever you encounter them. Take none of them as an ally or supporter.

The very next verse, 4:90 establishes the conditions for 4:89:
4:90 EXCEPT those who take refuge with a people allied to you, or those who, weary of fighting you or their people, come over to you. If God had so willed He would surely have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. If they keep aloof and do not fight, and offer peace, GOD HAS LEFT YOU NO REASON TO FIGHT THEM.

The word "Except" immediately rules out the possibility that it's encouraged to kill nonbelievers under all or any circumstances. There are limitations. The limitations in this verse are those allied with you (e.g. Peace Treaty, etc) or those who do not fight you and offer peace instead. If that's the case, then as the last line states, "God has left you no reason to fight them". In other words a REASON is needed. In this case, that reason is clearly SELF-DEFENSE.

Condition #2: IF THEY FIGHT YOU OVER YOUR FAITH
Condition #3: IF THEY DRIVE YOU OUT OF YOUR HOMES
Verses 60:8 & 60:9 show these 2 conditions and clear up any misconceptions as to when it's ok to befriend nonbelievers & when you should fight them.

60:8 and He does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you for your faith or driven you out of your homes: God loves the just.

60:9 BUT God forbids you to take as allies those who have fought against you FOR YOUR FAITH, DRIVEN YOU OUT OF YOUR HOMES, and helped others to drive you out: any of you who take them as allies will truly be wrongdoers.

These two verses as you can see are pretty clear. If they're fighting you because of your faith (what ISIS are doing to non-Sunni's right now) or kicking you out of your homes (Israel to Palestine), then you can fight them and must not take them as allies. If however, they aren't doing any of those things, deal kindly with them. It's quite simple and fair in my opinion.
So to say that ISIS is following Quranic law, is completely false. They are actually being aggressors and persecuting, which violates the Quran.

Let's look at the other "Kill them" verse and see if it's conditional:

2:191 Kill them wherever you encounter them, and drive them out from where they DROVE YOU OUT, for PERSECUTION is more serious than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them- this is what SUCH disbelievers deserve-

As you can see, this is not a general statement for all disbelievers. It's referring to a group who drove you out of your homes first! And they persecuted you. Which God says is worse than killing. And this is what SUCH disbelievers deserve. Not ALL. Only the ones persecuting you and kicking you out of your homes.

In closing, the violent verses in Quran are directed at the "bad guys". Not at normal people or those from other faiths that haven't harmed you, attacked you or oppressed you. Peace!

 

[outhouse]

Your "Koran" is not translated properly. The Arabic word used in 5:51 is "Awliya". This means "protectors or allies". NOT "friends". You are also quoting out of context. Showing what you want to show and hiding what you want hide.

Statement: You should punish all Christians who molest children.
Out of Context: You should punish all Christians.

See how that's cheating? See how easy it is to twist meanings by taking words out of context?

Now let's see what the Quran REALLY says about violence towards Christians, Jews, nonbelievers, etc.

Violence is permitted in the Quran under 3 conditions. I aim to show here that ISIS & other such groups are in complete violation of Quranic law.

Establishing the 3 conditions under which violence is permitted according to the Quran:
I'm using Adel Haleem's translation. It's well written, NOT funded by Saudi Arabia or those aiming to deceive & doesn't have a bias towards any particular sect. Feel free to check the verses with any translation that you trust.

Condition #1: SELF DEFENSE
First, here is the famous "kill them where you find them" verse:
4:89 They would dearly like you to reject faith, as they themselves have done, to be like them. So do not take them as allies until they migrate [to Medina] for God’s cause. If they turn [on you], then seize and kill them wherever you encounter them. Take none of them as an ally or supporter.

The very next verse, 4:90 establishes the conditions for 4:89:
4:90 EXCEPT those who take refuge with a people allied to you, or those who, weary of fighting you or their people, come over to you. If God had so willed He would surely have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. If they keep aloof and do not fight, and offer peace, GOD HAS LEFT YOU NO REASON TO FIGHT THEM.

The word "Except" immediately rules out the possibility that it's encouraged to kill nonbelievers under all or any circumstances. There are limitations. The limitations in this verse are those allied with you (e.g. Peace Treaty, etc) or those who do not fight you and offer peace instead. If that's the case, then as the last line states, "God has left you no reason to fight them". In other words a REASON is needed. In this case, that reason is clearly SELF-DEFENSE.

Condition #2: IF THEY FIGHT YOU OVER YOUR FAITH
Condition #3: IF THEY DRIVE YOU OUT OF YOUR HOMES
Verses 60:8 & 60:9 show these 2 conditions and clear up any misconceptions as to when it's ok to befriend nonbelievers & when you should fight them.

60:8 and He does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you for your faith or driven you out of your homes: God loves the just.

60:9 BUT God forbids you to take as allies those who have fought against you FOR YOUR FAITH, DRIVEN YOU OUT OF YOUR HOMES, and helped others to drive you out: any of you who take them as allies will truly be wrongdoers.

These two verses as you can see are pretty clear. If they're fighting you because of your faith (what ISIS are doing to non-Sunni's right now) or kicking you out of your homes (Israel to Palestine), then you can fight them and must not take them as allies. If however, they aren't doing any of those things, deal kindly with them. It's quite simple and fair in my opinion.
So to say that ISIS is following Quranic law, is completely false. They are actually being aggressors and persecuting, which violates the Quran.

Let's look at the other "Kill them" verse and see if it's conditional:

2:191 Kill them wherever you encounter them, and drive them out from where they DROVE YOU OUT, for PERSECUTION is more serious than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them- this is what SUCH disbelievers deserve-

As you can see, this is not a general statement for all disbelievers. It's referring to a group who drove you out of your homes first! And they persecuted you. Which God says is worse than killing. And this is what SUCH disbelievers deserve. Not ALL. Only the ones persecuting you and kicking you out of your homes.

In closing, the violent verses in Quran are directed at the "bad guys". Not at normal people or those from other faiths that haven't harmed you, attacked you or oppressed you. Peace!

Yet your people murder each other over interpretation alone.


Muslim on muslim violence is more then that of so called infidels.

 

[Aamer]

Yet your people murder each other over interpretation alone.


Muslim on muslim violence is more then that of so called infidels.

I don't consider them my people. I believe the Quran is from God. I follow Quran Alone. I have nothing in common with "Muslims" as they are known today. They follow Hadith, long beards & man made sources, not Quran. They bow down to the black cube of Saturn, their symbol is a crescent moon & star (pre-Islamic moon God, Hubal), they believe in all sorts of things I don't believe in. I am only defending the Quran itself. I don't defend "Muslims" & don't consider myself to be part of their community. Be careful not to label everyone.

And you're also wrong in saying that they fight over interpretation. Yes Muslim on Muslim violence is out of control. But they fight over sources outside of the Quran (even though Quran clearly says not to follow other sources as religious law). The Sunni & Shiite have different man made Hadith books that they follow & that's where their differences come in. It's not over interpretation of the Quran. Both sides follow different Imams (no concept of clergy in Quran) & they preach hate towards each other.

If "Muslims" dusted off their Qurans, you would see the biggest sand storm the desert has ever seen. Less than 1% of "Muslims" have even read the Quran in a language they understand. Hate & intolerance is cultural. Again, nothing to do with Quran.

All the illogical, oppressive nuttiness comes from Hadith books & long bearded Imams. Not Quran!

If you think I'm making this stuff up... Read the Quran for yourself.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Your "Koran" is not translated properly..You are also quoting out of context. Showing what you want to show and hiding what you want hide...I'm using Adel Haleem's translation.

Are some Koran translations no good? Which one shall I use?
What do you think of this one?
The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

It seems plain enough and easy to understand, look-

[5.51] "O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people"

[9.123] "O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous."

 

[YmirGF]

Your "Koran" is not translated properly. The Arabic word used in 5:51 is "Awliya". This means "protectors or allies". NOT "friends". You are also quoting out of context. Showing what you want to show and hiding what you want hide.

A rather large group of translators use it in that exact sense (ie. Friends), 2nd would be allies with protectors being a distant 3rd. Care to be a bit more truthful?


Here is a comparison of 50 of the most popular English translations:

al-Ma`idah 5:51

 

[Sha'irullah]

The root word for "awliya" is "wali" and literally means protector or guardian in Arabic. It does not mean friends although it is translated to mean that on only a few cases. It is used roughly 50 or so times in the Qur'an and is never rendered to mean friends

in 5:51 it is written أَوْلِيَاءَ
And the root word wali(ولي&#8206 is immediately found

 

[outhouse]

I don't consider them my people. I believe the Quran is from God. I follow Quran Alone. I have nothing in common with "Muslims" as they are known today. They follow Hadith, long beards & man made sources, not Quran. They bow down to the black cube of Saturn, their symbol is a crescent moon & star (pre-Islamic moon God, Hubal), they believe in all sorts of things I don't believe in. I am only defending the Quran itself. I don't defend "Muslims" & don't consider myself to be part of their community. Be careful not to label everyone.

And you're also wrong in saying that they fight over interpretation. Yes Muslim on Muslim violence is out of control. But they fight over sources outside of the Quran (even though Quran clearly says not to follow other sources as religious law). The Sunni & Shiite have different man made Hadith books that they follow & that's where their differences come in. It's not over interpretation of the Quran. Both sides follow different Imams (no concept of clergy in Quran) & they preach hate towards each other.

If "Muslims" dusted off their Qurans, you would see the biggest sand storm the desert has ever seen. Less than 1% of "Muslims" have even read the Quran in a language they understand. Hate & intolerance is cultural. Again, nothing to do with Quran.

All the illogical, oppressive nuttiness comes from Hadith books & long bearded Imams. Not Quran!

If you think I'm making this stuff up... Read the Quran for yourself.

Thank you for your explanation

 

[Shad]

I don't consider them my people. I believe the Quran is from God. I follow Quran Alone.

You can not read the Quran without secondary sources. The language within the text itself required construction as it was not a normal dialect of Arabic.

 

[Aamer]

You can not read the Quran without secondary sources. The language within the text itself required construction as it was not a normal dialect of Arabic.

That's what the long beards tell you. I can read it just fine.

 

[Shad]

No its what modern linguistics shows. No one is raised on classical Arabic. You need to learn the language to read it, hence you need a secondary source.

 

[Aamer]

No its what modern linguistics shows. No one is raised on classical Arabic. You need to learn the language to read it, hence you need a secondary source.

If you mean a translation, then yes. Go to IslamAwakened.com. You can see any verse in every English translation out there. However, if you meant that you need Hadith or Imams to understand the Quran, I completely disagree.

 

[outhouse]

If you mean a translation, then yes. Go to IslamAwakened.com. You can see any verse in every English translation out there. However, if you meant that you need Hadith or Imams to understand the Quran, I completely disagree.

What about the text that makes no sense as written?

 

[Muffled]

If God is the Lord of the worlds (1.2) and the Prophet is described as the messenger for the worlds (21.107) and the Quran is introduced as a reminder to the worlds, (68.52) then:

1. What is the relevance of the Quranic message to the world?

2. How can the world, Muslims and non-Muslims, alike, benefit from the universal message of a universal and compassionate God, during this life and afterlife?

3. Can non-Muslims practice divinely revealed values without acknowledging their original source and without adhering to the total divine call?
​

1. I beleive it is the word of God but like the OT in the Bible not all the laws are relevant to a Christian who is not under the law but under grace.

2. I beleive there are some very good things to remember such as religion can't be compelled.

3. I believe so but I also believe in giving credit where credit is due.

 

[Muffled]

Well i've got a sneaking suspicion that it's not for non-muslims..

[Koran 5.51] "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends"
[Koran 9.123] "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"

I suspect in your case it would be unwise to take you as a friend.

 

[Muffled]

Wait, weren't you the one always complaining about fanatics and fundamentalists?

Call me fanatic and fundamentalist for saying that God, the one called Allah in Arabic, is only one and has always been one, who never had an offspring nor He was born, if you want. I wonder what does what you said qualify you as, reading some stuff, you like it, then force it on others.

But anyways, if you mean why I am being a Muslim, it is because I believe it is the right religion.

There's a thread for that on general debates.

I beleive an honest assessment will show that Christianity is the right religion for the time we are in but pure Islam is right in the long run and Jesus will have me practice it at times.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Incidentally, why are Sunni and Shi'ite muslims always killing each other?
Do they use different Korans or what?

 

[YmirGF]

Incidentally, why are Sunni and Shi'ite muslims always killing each other?
Do they use different Korans or what?

Nope. Just different interpretations.

That said though, the spite between the two camps goes back all the way to Muhammad on his deathbed. It was originally about the rite of succession on who would lead the fledgling religion.