Is the rejection of others a cornerstone of Abrahamic religions?

[Harmonious]

You can't convert to an ethnicity.

True, but I did say it was complicated.

 

[Tarheeler]

You can't convert to an ethnicity.

Yes, you can.
Ethnicity is a complex identification made of up of various factors, such as religion, culture, language. It is not dependent on race. If one adopts those factors and is accepted by the group, then they become part of that ethnic group.

 

[Desert Snake]

Yes, you can.
Ethnicity is a complex identification made of up of various factors, such as religion, culture, language. It is not dependent on race. If one adopts those factors and is accepted by the group, then they become part of that ethnic group.

Can a Korean convert to Italian?

 

[Tarheeler]

Can a Korean convert to Italian?

Yes, we call it assimilation.
Germans become American, Americans become Japanese, and Italians become Argentinian. Happens everyday.

 

[Harmonious]

Can a Korean convert to Italian?

A Koren can become a naturalized Italian.

But being Jewish has many dimensions. It is a nation. It is a religion. It is a culture. It is many things that being naturalized as an immigrant from nation to nation doesn't ordinarily have.

 

[Tarheeler]

A Koren can become a naturalized Italian.

But being Jewish has many dimensions. It is a nation. It is a religion. It is a culture. It is many things that being naturalized as an immigrant from nation to nation doesn't ordinarily have.

So does being "Italian". It comes with it's own distinct customs, attitudes, language, and mannerisms that go beyond citizenship.

 

[Harmonious]

So does being "Italian". It comes with it's own distinct customs, attitudes, language, and mannerisms that go beyond citizenship.

Fair enough. But then, how would you explain the difference between becoming Italian and becoming Jewish?

I've tried to say that they are two different things. You are a conversion student. Am I right or wrong?

 

[Tarheeler]

Fair enough. But then, how would you explain the difference between becoming Italian and becoming Jewish?

I've tried to say that they are two different things. You are a conversion student. Am I right or wrong?

I don't think they are that different. I think one way to think of it is that someone who adopts the Jewish religion, but chooses not to convert, is like someone who becomes a citizen of Italy, but refuses to assimilate into Italian culture.

Conversion to Judaism is more than just adopting a religion; it require assimilation into the Jewish community and identification as part of the Jewish people. It's a lot more than just prayer and holy days.

 

[EnochSDP]

I don't think they are that different. I think one way to think of it is that someone who adopts the Jewish religion, but chooses not to convert, is like someone who becomes a citizen of Italy, but refuses to assimilate into Italian culture.

Conversion to Judaism is more than just adopting a religion; it require assimilation into the Jewish community and identification as part of the Jewish people. It's a lot more than just prayer and holy days.

God of the Jews accepts everyone but Jews are the chosen people.In the old testament it was about actual bloodline, that was the meaning of perfect in thier generations,Though people amoungst Jews and believing and living with them were jews.Actual full blooded(which it is hard to know for sure today)Jews are direct desendants from Adam,David,and Jesus.Anyone can practice Judaism therefore they can be Jew.You must live within Israel to be a Israelite.And you must practice Christainity or Judaism and speak Hebrew to be considered Hebrew.But all you must do is believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost to be a son of God.

 

[Levite]

So if everyone converted to Judaism then everyone would be the "chosen people"? Are you a rabbi?

I am. And Harmonious was entirely correct.

Also, though the answer to your (possibly rhetorical) question is yes, the question itself also reflects a common misunderstanding of chosenness. Chosenness doesn't reflect either superiority or privilege. It means that the Jewish people are the people God has chosen to be His partners in the covenant of Torah. It is reflective of the additional responsibilities Jews have agreed to shoulder, from which non-Jews are free. But it doesn't mean we think that we're better than other peoples, or that we think God thinks we're better than other peoples. And it doesn't at all preclude the idea that God may have chosen other peoples to be His partners in other covenants, or for other responsibilities.

That's great. Then being a Jew is a religion only, not an ethnicity.

Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity. That is, it is a society which incorporates both religion and ethnicity, having elements of both inextricably linked as part of its structure. But it is not a closed society: it is permeable by conversion. So one can be born a Jew or convert to Judaism, and yet under Jewish Law, both are deemed equally inherently Jewish.

 

[Flankerl]

Yes, we call it assimilation.
Germans become American, Americans become Japanese, and Italians become Argentinian. Happens everyday.

Iam sorry but no.
The rest of the world doesnt work like the Americas does.

The japanese for example are giant racist like all the asians in that region. You can not become a Korean, Chinese or Japanese. Its virtually impossible. Especially in Japan since its been a closed society for most of its existence.
Also an american becoming a japanese? Ever been to Okinawa? They hate you people.

In the Americas its different because there you got countries build on immigration and forming new identities.
It doesnt work that way in europe. A korean would always be a korean even if he spoke perfect italian and ate italian cuisine the whole day. Its largely based on looks and after that the culture.
It also gets more exclusive the more you move to the north of europe. Especially in the so called germanic countries. It doesnt mean that immigrants or foreigners get treated bad but it does mean that its quite difficult to be one of them.

Half of my life i've lived here in germany and to the neighbours of my parents iam still that austrian girl. It I could speak i'd probably still have a tyrolean dialect and everyone would realise where i was born. Its the problem my parents and siblings have. "Are you here for a visit" "No we live here" "Oh my since when???" "For about 13 years" "Oh really i never would have guessed"

If you want to fit into a european country you better fit in perfectly.

Which is why you cant compare it to a jewish conversion because its something entirely different.

 

[Sunstone]

So, here are the questions. Is the rejection of others a cornerstone of Abrahamic religions? Is it fair to say that rejection is one of the defining characteristics of the Abrahamic God, as well as most of the adherents of Abrahamic religions? Is Judaism the exception, where rejection does not play a central role?

As I understand it, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are socio-ethical religions. That is, they are by and large more concerned with living an ethical life within the context of a group than they are concerned with, say, enlightenment. If so, that would seem all but designed to raise issues of whose ethics are the proper ones -- which, it seems to me, could easily devolve into "us versus them" antagonisms.

 

[Tarheeler]

Iam sorry but no.
The rest of the world doesnt work like the Americas does.

The japanese for example are giant racist like all the asians in that region. You can not become a Korean, Chinese or Japanese. Its virtually impossible. Especially in Japan since its been a closed society for most of its existence.
Also an american becoming a japanese? Ever been to Okinawa? They hate you people.

In the Americas its different because there you got countries build on immigration and forming new identities.
It doesnt work that way in europe. A korean would always be a korean even if he spoke perfect italian and ate italian cuisine the whole day. Its largely based on looks and after that the culture.
It also gets more exclusive the more you move to the north of europe. Especially in the so called germanic countries. It doesnt mean that immigrants or foreigners get treated bad but it does mean that its quite difficult to be one of them.

Half of my life i've lived here in germany and to the neighbours of my parents iam still that austrian girl. It I could speak i'd probably still have a tyrolean dialect and everyone would realise where i was born. Its the problem my parents and siblings have. "Are you here for a visit" "No we live here" "Oh my since when???" "For about 13 years" "Oh really i never would have guessed"

If you want to fit into a european country you better fit in perfectly.

Which is why you cant compare it to a jewish conversion because its something entirely different.

I'm a military brat. I grew up in Okinawa, mainland Japan, and various parts of Europe.

Yes, assimilation does happen all over the world.

And I have seen Americans become fully intergrated and accepted by mainstream Japanese society. It takes longer, and there are more people who are likely to reject them, but it does happen. And I'd wager it happens at a higher rate than most would think.

Of course, there are groups that one cannot integrated into and are based on race. But ethnicity is a very diverse category rhat goes far beyond gentics and appearance.

 

[Harmonious]

God of the Jews accepts everyone but Jews are the chosen people.In the old testament it was about actual bloodline, that was the meaning of perfect in thier generations,

No, it wasn't. There were converts then, as well. The primary messages of the prophets WAS aimed at the Tribes, who were descended from Jacob, but converts were not left out of the equation. Or have you forgotten about Ruth?

Though people amoungst Jews and believing and living with them were jews.Actual full blooded(which it is hard to know for sure today)Jews are direct desendants from Adam,

A given, like the rest of humanity.

David

No, not that many. There are some, but most Jews are not. Especially Cohanim and Levi'im.

,and Jesus.

Not very likely. I remember one reason Catholics were upset at Dan Brown's "DaVinci Codes" was the idea that Jesus had children.

Now, I don't care one way or another if Jesus had kids, but for you to say that "the only full blooded Jews are descended from Adam, David, and Jesus" is patently ridiculous.

Anyone can practice Judaism therefore they can be Jew.

Correction - anyone can attempt to become a Jew. Not all candidates make it, particularly if they are in thrall to a different deity at the time of their attempted conversion.

You must live within Israel to be a Israelite.

You are confusing Israelites and Israelis. They are not the same.

And you must practice Christainity or Judaism and speak Hebrew to be considered Hebrew.

No.

But all you must do is believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost to be a son of God.

Interesting.

 

[Tarheeler]

Wow, we have certainly taken this thread far off course.

:sorry1:

 

[839311]

Wow, we have certainly taken this thread far off course.

:redcard:

:sorry1:

No, no, thats fine, no need to apologize.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Is rejection of others a cornserstone of Abrahamic religions?

Clearly not always, no!

First off, you overlook the fact that there are FIVE Abrahamic religions--not three--by ignoring the Babi and Baha'i Faiths! (Granted the Babi Faith is quite small today, but it still exists.)

And the scriptures of the Baha'i Faith explicitly recognize and respect the other religions!

I quote:

"There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Arise and, armed with the power of faith, shatter to pieces the gods of your vain imaginings, the sowers of dissension amongst you. Cleave unto that which draweth you together and uniteth you."
—(Gleanings, CXI, pp. 217-8)

(And before you ask, the few that are rejected are things like satanism and the Jim Jones and David Koresh cults, the one in Japan that released poison gas in the subway, etc..)

Best!

Bruce

 

[HerDotness]

Isn't it the case though, Harmonious, that Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews don't recognize as legitimate converts those who haven't converted according to halachic stipulations? Which would likely mean that most Reform Jewish converts wouldn't be regarded as Jews.

I'm not sure how strict Conservative Jews would be about this. Perhaps you know or can refer us to information?

 

[Harmonious]

Isn't it the case though, Harmonious, that Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews don't recognize as legitimate converts those who haven't converted according to halachic stipulations? Which would likely mean that most Reform Jewish converts wouldn't be regarded as Jews.

That is true. However, Jews who were born Jews and chose to be Reform are still beloved Jews.

I'm not sure how strict Conservative Jews would be about this. Perhaps you know or can refer us to information?

I don't know, but we have several of them about. Levite would know.

 

[Levite]

Isn't it the case though, Harmonious, that Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews don't recognize as legitimate converts those who haven't converted according to halachic stipulations? Which would likely mean that most Reform Jewish converts wouldn't be regarded as Jews.

I'm not sure how strict Conservative Jews would be about this. Perhaps you know or can refer us to information?

The Conservative movement also requires that converts meet halachic stipulations, although we differ with Orthodoxy on one or two interpretations precisely what those stipulations are. But the basic requirements-- study, appearance before a rabbinical court, rejection of other religions and taking upon oneself the yoke of the commandments, going to the mikveh (ritual pool), and circumcision if one is male-- are all the same as in Orthodoxy. (The chief difference is whether or not any of the rabbis on the court, or any of the witnesses who sign the conversion document (like an affidavit or affirmation) can be female or not-- Orthodoxy says no, Conservative Judaism says yes.)

The usual rule of thumb is that most Orthodox rabbis will not recognize a conversion at all if done by the Reform movement, and many will not even recognize Conservative conversions either-- some in Modern Orthodoxy will recognize Conservative conversions if they know it has been done correctly according to the Orthodox interpretation of halachah (I know one or two who will even accept Reform conversions with the same caveat, but they are extremely anomalous). But in the Conservative movement, we will recognize a Reform conversion if we know it has been done properly, and if it has not been done properly, we are willing to simply provide the missing elements for the person to complete their conversion, whereas in Orthodoxy they usually make such a person begin the conversion process entirely anew in order to be acceptable.