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Is the Right Wing in America Bankrupt for Practical Ideas?

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
1) Not sure if you mean the American government which is definitely not totally liberal yet, if you are speaking of liberals within the government, not just the government as whole, ignore this.
Liberals, in & out of government, are the primary pushers of this agenda.
Please don't infer from this that I'm attacking liberals.
Rather, I see them as people with both good & bad traits, just as I see conservatives & others.

2) Sources?
I have none in particular.

3) If it is actual liberals then wikipedia lied.
Lied? What is your basis for this?
 
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The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Is the Right Wing in America Bankrupt for Practical Ideas ?

Not what I was saying...

I was saying it was just that news reporter's opinion that it is liberal racism, but it was unsupportive in his claim, I was asking if you knew.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Liberals, in & out of government, are the primary pushers of this agenda.

I have none in particular.

Lied? What is your basis for this?

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom")[1] is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.[2] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally, liberals support ideas such as constitutionalism, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, capitalism, and freedom of religion.[3][4][5][6][7]
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom")[1] is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.[2] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally, liberals support ideas such as constitutionalism, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, capitalism, and freedom of religion.[3][4][5][6][7]
The Latin origin is an interesting historical curiosity, but language evolves, & "liberal" means what it means as we use it today. Certainly, this meaning is murky
& dependent upon context. Are you using "liberal" in the modern political sense? If so, their record on constitutionalism, capitalism & liberty is quite mixed.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
The Latin origin is an interesting historical curiosity, but language evolves, & "liberal" means what it means as we use it today. Certainly, this meaning is murky
& dependent upon context. Are you using "liberal" in the modern political sense? If so, their record on constitutionalism, capitalism & liberty is quite mixed.

Can you link some facts about 'Modern liberalism'?
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm sure Liberalism can stretch into Communism, but not all Liberals are Communists, and that's not the one I was talking about.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom")[1] is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.[2] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally, liberals support ideas such as constitutionalism, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, capitalism, and freedom of religion.[3][4][5][6][7]

This is completely irrelevant. I could start calling every child I see, male or female, girl and if anyone complains I just tell them that the original use of the term referenced a small child.

Throwing around Latin meanings in this thread is simply pleading.

However, there are numerous conservative Democrats, many of them known as "Blue Dogs", who are conservative because of there fiscal views. It says nothing about their views on individual freedoms. Another such group would be liberal libertarians. Individuals who believe in a decentralized economy but many of whom wholesale support "the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights".

edit: Once again, what does any of this have to do with the OP? Maybe over twenty more pages of this we'll narrow down everyone's definition of Right Wing. That must be it.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Can you link some facts about 'Modern liberalism'?

This is really going nowhere. Almost all links are biased one way or the other and a challenge that there are no links becomes a discussion about the legitimacy of a link and whether it is valid or an opinion.

I am of a mind that all things are subjective and a person's opinion might be valid and might not be.

Nothing is conclusive.

We really should make an attempt to tie this back to the threads topic because we have wore out this tangent don't you agree?
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
This is completely irrelevant. I could start calling every child I see, male or female, girl and if anyone complains I just tell them that the original use of the term referenced a small child.

I doubt Wikipedia would use a unused definition that is irrelevant, and especially doubt it'd be the first line of the page...

However, there are numerous conservative Democrats, many of them known as "Blue Dogs", who are conservative because of there fiscal views. It says nothing about their views on individual freedoms.

Because it isn't important to them possibly?

edit: Once again, what does any of this have to do with the OP? Maybe over twenty more pages of this we'll narrow down everyone's definition of Right Wing. That must be it.

It doesn't really relate to the OP directly.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
This is really going nowhere. Almost all links are biased one way or the other and a challenge that there are no links becomes a discussion about the legitimacy of a link and whether it is valid or an opinion.

I am of a mind that all things are subjective and a person's opinion might be valid and might not be.

Nothing is conclusive.

We really should make an attempt to tie this back to the threads topic because we have wore out this tangent don't you agree?

Sure thing, but I'm still interested in learning about 'Modern Liberalism'. So can I get the links and we can give the thread back to the OP?

edit: Mostly because I think you're just backing away, to be honest. Truth hurts but there's the facts of how I really feel.
 
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gnomon

Well-Known Member
I doubt Wikipedia would use a unused definition that is irrelevant, and especially doubt it'd be the first line of the page...

Once again, irrelevant. But if you really wish to find links noting differences in various thoughts on liberalism why don't you start with the link you provided. Wikipedia.


Because it isn't important to them possibly?

I'm not even going to take that statement seriously.

It doesn't really relate to the OP directly.

Glad we have that squared away.

If you want to know about modern liberalism and are demanding links just start with the Wikipedia link you already posted.

I fully understand now that you assertions regarding racism in this thread are unfounded, irrelevant to the thread and just unnecessary.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not even going to take that statement seriously.
Why not?


Glad we have that squared away.

If you want to know about modern liberalism and are demanding links just start with the Wikipedia link you already posted.

I fully understand now that you assertions regarding racism in this thread are unfounded, irrelevant to the thread and just unnecessary.

My original reply to it was, then a reply to my reply starts the debate, and the debate slowly spins off the OP
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom")[1] is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.[2]

So if you are racist, you wouldn't be liberal anymore, that's not equal rights.

Conservatism (Latin: conservare, "to preserve")[1] is a political and social philosophy that promotes the maintenance of traditional institutions and supports, at the most, minimal and gradual change in society. Some conservatives seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing stability and continuity, while others oppose modernism and seek a return to the way things were.[2][3] The first established use of the term in a political context was by François-René de Chateaubriand in 1819, following the French Revolution.[4] The term has since been used to describe a wide range of views.

Conservatives on the other hand may accept you, not saying all will, but by definition it's acceptable to be racist as a conservative.
That is simply not true. Many Conservatives are not racist, while some Liberals are. While it's true because of background and heritage differences the Conservatives will produce more racist by merit that they are predominate in the Southern states, and of the strong discrimination towards racial minorities that still exist in the South that still linger from the days of slavery. But to say there are no racists among Liberals is simply absurd. And after all, the term Liberal itself is a very broad term, as is the term Conservative.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
After watching the Right Wing once again call for tax cuts and deregulation as an antidote to job loss, I've got to ask: Does the Right Wing in America -- that is, America's Conservatives -- have any ideas that actually work in practice? If so, what are those ideas --- and what is the evidence that they work in practice?

Please note: If you cannot provide evidence that a particular Conservative idea works in practice, please start your own thread. This thread is for ideas backed up by evidence the ideas work.
The OWS protests are the worst thing that could have happened to the corporate press and corporate-sponsored conservatives. If it wasn't for the occupations, these clowns running for the Republican nomination, would not be confronted by any questions regarding fairness of their "flat tax" proposals. This is the first sign that a grassroots movement and alternative press can crack through the bubble imposed by big business!
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
That is simply not true. Many Conservatives are not racist, while some Liberals are.


That's just like saying Some conservatives are racist while many Liberals aren't.

While it's true because of background and heritage differences the Conservatives will produce more racist by merit that they are predominate in the Southern states, and of the strong discrimination towards racial minorities that still exist in the South that still linger from the days of slavery. But to say there are no racists among Liberals is simply absurd. And after all, the term Liberal itself is a very broad term, as is the term Conservative.

True enough.

Also, I still seen no good resources for liberal racism.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
That is simply not true. Many Conservatives are not racist, while some Liberals are. While it's true because of background and heritage differences the Conservatives will produce more racist by merit that they are predominate in the Southern states, and of the strong discrimination towards racial minorities that still exist in the South that still linger from the days of slavery. But to say there are no racists among Liberals is simply absurd. And after all, the term Liberal itself is a very broad term, as is the term Conservative.
Speaking as someone who was mostly conservative until recent years, my reasons for shifting and going radical are not because of racism and other ills that linger on with the support of appeals to traditional virtues -- my reasons for leaving the reservation are imposed by the new reality we are seeing unfold before our very eyes - here's an example from yesterday:Biggest jump ever seen in global warming gases
Conservative proposals, based on notions of personal free choice and libertarian economics offer no solutions for dealing with overpopulation and a climate crisis. That AP story on the latest CO2 measurements are informing us that CO2 levels will be somewhere between a 4 degree and 11 degree increase at the end of this century. Either scenario means the end of civilization, and the difference between probable extinction for the human race or certain extinction! Five or ten years ago, the IPCC reports were predicting 2 degrees of warming this century. The situation calls for drastic action now! And that will require solutions imposed that conservatives...and most liberals will rebel against...but if it's a matter of survival, you should do what's necessary and stop dithering around with selfish pursuits. Long story short -- reality trumps ideology!
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
That AP story on the latest CO2 measurements are informing us that CO2 levels will be somewhere between a 4 degree and 11 degree increase at the end of this century. Either scenario means the end of civilization, and the difference between probable extinction for the human race or certain extinction!
It won't be that bad. While we do need environmental regulations and protections, and there really isn't any good argument against switching to green energy, the globe has been warmer and the ice sheets have been much smaller than they are today. And the homo genus seemed to do just fine through periods of global heat and cold.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
It won't be that bad. While we do need environmental regulations and protections, and there really isn't any good argument against switching to green energy, the globe has been warmer and the ice sheets have been much smaller than they are today. And the homo genus seemed to do just fine through periods of global heat and cold.
I don't want to drift too far into environment issues here, but the reality is that we already have to go back 15 million years before we have a time where atmospheric CO2 levels were at their present level -- getting dangerously close to 400 ppm. And the increase we've caused is at a much more accelerated rate than anything that has happened in the past. We already have at least one degree increase in average global temperature -- already in the pipeline, about to happen even if CO2 levels didn't rise.

15 million years ago, there were only our primate ancestors living on Earth...no humans...and no civilization either! Our way of life today...especially our agriculture, has been created in a system that depends on reliable weather. The droughts and floods in the last few years alone, have decreased crop yields and grain surpluses to next to nothing.

But the biggest concern is that time after time, the real results end up being worse than all of the climate forecasts. So when they estimate global average temperature increases at the end of this century as being somewhere between 4 and 11 degrees, that leads to the likelihood that the high number will be the one that people living here 80 to 90 years from now will have to deal with....although even a 4 degree increase would melt all of the ice caps and land-based glaciers too. Looking for similar circumstances in the past, the only thing we could compare it to would be Earth during the Permian/Triassic Extinction that killed off more than 90% of the animal species living on Earth.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It is never acceptable to be a racist. The country that I live in provides Liberty and Justice for all.
I really wish it were so. White privilege is still very strong in our society, as is male privilege. Homosexuals can be fired in some states just for being so, and in many states transsexuals can be evicted from their homes just for being so. We make life hard for even legal immigrants, and although blacks do not actually commit more crimes, they are more heavily watched, arrested, prosecuted, and even put do death far more frequently than their white counterparts. Even just admitting you're an atheist can carry some negative social repercussions. But then again, most white male Christians are unaware of the equality in America, as it is something they don't see on a regular basis. Many white women are unaware of white privilege, but many also have a good idea since they deal with unequal treatment for being women.

I don't want to drift too far into environment issues here, but the reality is that we already have to go back 15 million years before we have a time where atmospheric CO2 levels were at their present level -- getting dangerously close to 400 ppm. And the increase we've caused is at a much more accelerated rate than anything that has happened in the past. We already have at least one degree increase in average global temperature -- already in the pipeline, about to happen even if CO2 levels didn't rise.
It's hard to say it's all from modern times, when a warming trend has been noted for about 100 years now. We have done our damage, but the earth goes through it's own periods in which it has been worse than it is now. But I don't see anything short of a mass-extinction even coming close to being a near-extinction for humans. Societies like ours would crumble and suffer heavy losses, but some cultures and people are more adaptable than others.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
I really wish it were so. White privilege is still very strong in our society, as is male privilege. Homosexuals can be fired in some states just for being so, and in many states transsexuals can be evicted from their homes just for being so. We make life hard for even legal immigrants, and although blacks do not actually commit more crimes, they are more heavily watched, arrested, prosecuted, and even put do death far more frequently than their white counterparts. Even just admitting you're an atheist can carry some negative social repercussions. But then again, most white male Christians are unaware of the equality in America, as it is something they don't see on a regular basis. Many white women are unaware of white privilege, but many also have a good idea since they deal with unequal treatment for being women.
I can agree with everything here! I know that from my own pov as a middle-aged, white male, living in Canada, I didn't view myself as living a life of privilege, and on wider issues, I was always bewildered by anti-Americanism that pops up in Latin America and Asia.....until I met a new neighbour 10 years ago (through our kids) who was originally from Guatemala, and had to flee with his family from the Contra death squads across into Mexico during his youth. That started me looking up a little more about how power (both commercial and military) is projected throughout Latin America under the patronage of U.S. governments going back more than a century.

But, even the little things made me realize that Canadians are not so colour-blind and open as they perceive themselves to be. For example, several times when the two of us were collaborating on our personal home building projects and walked into building supply stores -- time and time again the clerks just assumed that he was working for me, and ignored him to talk to me. I can only imagine what any Latino who is a U.S. citizen has to go through in these states that are really foaming at the mouth about illegal immigration!

It's hard to say it's all from modern times, when a warming trend has been noted for about 100 years now. We have done our damage, but the earth goes through it's own periods in which it has been worse than it is now. But I don't see anything short of a mass-extinction even coming close to being a near-extinction for humans. Societies like ours would crumble and suffer heavy losses, but some cultures and people are more adaptable than others.
Many so called global warming skeptics pull out a period of time in Earth's history 55 million years ago, when temperatures dramatically spiked during a brief period in geologic history. This anomaly is known as the PETM, and I am not sure how this serves as any argument for doing nothing, since there were widespread extinctions and mass migrations. In fact, if humans had been living on Earth then...and had built the cities and roads that block off animal migration routes today, the catastrophic warming in the Tropical Zone would have killed off all of the plants and animals that had been living in that area at the time. A number of paleontologists believe now that for several thousand years the Tropics were a dead zone, with virtually no plants or animals because of average daily high temperatures of over 140 degrees F.

Of late, we are being informed that not only are the birds and land animals having difficulties migrating north, but even the trees in warmer zones are not moving north to any great degree! This is one reason why we can't just compare past geologic events with today, without factoring in what we have done to change this planet. Another big difference between today and the PETM is that new, more accurate paleoclimate measurements indicate that the rise in CO2 and temperatures during the PETM took 10 times longer than the present rate of increase. And that is the great weakness of attempts to make inductive arguments about what our future will be like, based on past events!

Now, before I forget which thread I'm on, dealing with catastrophic climate change is going to demand collective welfare takes precedence over personal freedoms and desires. So, any right wing political philosophy, whether it calls itself libertarian or conservative, is not even capable of leading towards necessary solutions for our survival as a species.
 
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