is the u.s. a fascist state?

[Quiddity]

In short? No. I have not seen a scrap of evidence for socialist change under Nazism and believe me, I have looked.

Just out of curiousity, are you of the thinking that Nazis gained power against the country's wishes?

~Victor

 

[almifkhar]

i agree with most of you that we are not a fascist state. that is to say YET!!

i think we are now on the verge of becomming one and it really scares me. i think this because
1. the patriot act
2. republican domination in all three branches of government
3. the government grip on the media
4. the way the wealthy are able to hide their money to avoid paying taxes
5. the growing poverty rates
6. the ever growing gap of the classes
7. military budget is the top priority
8. the infillatration of the various activist groups (the discredit and imprisionment of the dissants)
9. our prison system in general
10. the crooks in office are too many

i think that we as americans have a real big problem on our hands and i think if we just sit by and let these things happen we are gona find ourselves in the shoes of the germans back in the 30's. i feel that we are at a point that we can stop this from happening if the people would just take the time to pay attention to what our government is doing and speak out against them. this is the patriotic thing to do. this is what our consituation was all about. if we just sit back with ingnorance we are gona find ourselves screwed and dirt poor with no way out.

 

[Darkdale]

i think we are now on the verge of becomming one and it really scares me. i think this because
1. the patriot act
2. republican domination in all three branches of government
3. the government grip on the media
4. the way the wealthy are able to hide their money to avoid paying taxes
5. the growing poverty rates
6. the ever growing gap of the classes
7. military budget is the top priority
8. the infillatration of the various activist groups (the discredit and imprisionment of the dissants)
9. our prison system in general
10. the crooks in office are too many

i think that we as americans have a real big problem on our hands and i think if we just sit by and let these things happen we are gona find ourselves in the shoes of the germans back in the 30's. i feel that we are at a point that we can stop this from happening if the people would just take the time to pay attention to what our government is doing and speak out against them. this is the patriotic thing to do. this is what our consituation was all about. if we just sit back with ingnorance we are gona find ourselves screwed and dirt poor with no way out.

1. The Patriot Act is designed to increase national security. What do you like about that? I'm a libertarian and I still don't understand what rights the Patriot Act actually threatens.

2. The Republicans have gained power through democracy. Is it democracy that you have a problem with?

3. What government grip on the Media? The Media is controlled by journalists and corporations, with their own interests in mind. Not the Governments'.

4. I agree. It is total BS how the rich end up paying less in taxes than the Middle Class. It's outrageous, in point of fact.

5. Poverty rates have been dropping ever since 9/11, up until the hurricane season. Experts expect unemployment to drop below 5%. We are currently experiencing an economy as strong, if not stronger than we had in the 90s. Of course, this is no thanks to our Government, who spends money like if they keep spending it they are going to win something.

6. The economic gap has to do, not with government directly, but with the failing education system and the continued lowering of standards by, surprisingly, the Teachers Union.

7. Considering how poor a job we are doing overseas, I'm not surprised how much it is costing.

8. Politics is controlled by PACs and Corporations because our politicians won't get serious about fiscal reform.

9. Our Prison System is frightening. We put more people in jail, per capita, then any other nation in the world.

10. Yeah, there is too much of a connection between Business, Activist Groups and Government. Something should be done to restrict the flow of money between them.

 

[Scuba Pete]

3. Netdoc - Just out of curiosity, are you advocating civil war? Stopping conservatives at any cost? That's a curious topic I'd love to possibly discuss in another thread.

What part about war did you think I would support? Of course I don't support civil war; I don't support any war except in defense. BUT, I DO support civil disobedience when neccesary. I do believe in a bloodless revolution by voting the war mongers out. Would I harm one hair on their heads? Not on your life!

 

[Darkdale]

What part about war did you think I would support? Of course I don't support civil war; I don't support any war except in defense. BUT, I DO support civil disobedience when neccesary. I do believe in a bloodless revolution by voting the war mongers out. Would I harm one hair on their heads? Not on your life!

I see. Well, unless your liberal politicians can come up with a proactive policy of their own... I'm afraid you are stuck with evil, bigoted warmongers.

 

[Scuba Pete]

DD,

I agreed with 7 out of ten of your points... a record for us. I only disagree with

1) Look at Gitmo and how many citizens have been detained since 9/11. Simply unacceptable.

2) The Republicans gained an advantage through fear mongering. Nothing more.

5) I don't have figures on our unemployment, but I see the ugly head of inflation (gas, home prices) and feel that this "strong economy" you speak of is non-existent or built on a house of cards. I agree about the run-away spending by those in power. Irresponsible at best and will ultimately plunge us into a deep dark recession.

 

[Solon]

As long as free peoples are allowed a free vote, then a state cannot be deemed facist. Facist states do not not have a free voting system. How would one view, say Zimbabwe, where there is a vote, but the system is so corrupt that Mugabe is a a dictator in all but name, and rules through terror.

 

[almifkhar]

darkdale

for the record, we have been in the downward spiral as far as the gap between rich and poor goes since the 1070's. the middle class is going bye bye and that is a serious problem

the republican did not get the votes because they were the better choice, they got the votes through two methods, one rigging, two fear, and yes this is a big problem.

the media, well i will give you two quotes from guys who were in government. yes they are no longer in government but what they said goes to show that this has been going on under our noses for a long time.
" the cia owns everyone of any singificance in teh major media."- william colby, former cia director
"reporters are puppets. they simply respond to the pull of the most powerful strings."- lyndon johnson, former president

the patroit act, well where should we start, locking up folks for what ever reason with out trial or lawyer does go against our rights and i will leave it at that. did you know that the patroit act was drafted months before 9-11? so it makes one wonder if there really was an outside threat in the first place.

also hitler pulled the same thing on the german public back in the 30's. changed laws and talked the people out of their rights in the name of national security.

the point is, we have a serious problem and it needs serious attention.

 

[Quiddity]

As long as free peoples are allowed a free vote, then a state cannot be deemed facist.

:clap Frubal worthy.

~Victor

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

As long as free peoples are allowed a free vote, then a state cannot be deemed facist. Facist states do not not have a free voting system. How would one view, say Zimbabwe, where there is a vote, but the system is so corrupt that Mugabe is a a dictator in all but name, and rules through terror.

How many of the population have votes the make a difference.
Most candidates stand in seats that are no contest.
Candidates are selected fom a list agreed by the power brokers in each local district.
cash is the largest decider on who gets the final selection.

Most elections are pre determined by the above.
The real effort and money is spent on the few marginals where every thing is decided.

Presidents, Priministers, congressmen etc are elected mostly by faceless men.
Has your vote ever counted?

Terry____________________________
Blessed are the merciful, mercy shall be shown unto them.

 

[Fluffy]

Just out of curiousity, are you of the thinking that Nazis gained power against the country's wishes?

Thats a tricky one. Yes and no. I think that a significant portion of the country wanted the Nazis in power. However, many others simply voted them in to prevent Communist rule so in that sense it could be argued that they were sort of forced into it; the better of two evils in their eyes.

Then one could argue that Hitler himself did not become chancellor because of majority rule. Additionally factors such as the Reichstag fire must have had an affect on voters at the election in the year after. However, in the end, Germany did vote a Nazi majority, albeit a slim one, and Hitler's immediate success at lowering employment and reducing hyperinflation would surely have secured him future terms in office even had he not removed the voting system before then.

 

[Quiddity]

I think that a significant portion of the country wanted the Nazis in power.

My point exactly. It would not be far-fetched that socialism had it's workings in this whole process.

~Victor

 

[Fluffy]

My point exactly. It would not be far-fetched that socialism had it's workings in this whole process.

I find that unreasonable and unlikely. Unlikely because the Nazis had clear anti-socialist policies despite their name in a clear attempt to garner upper and middle class votes. Unreasonable because if I vote Labour because I feel they will bring about world peace and then they turn around, remove democracy and start murdering minorities, I would not exactly have paid an intentional part in such a policy. I wanted them to do one thing and they did another whilst removing my right to prevent them.

Furthermore, socialism does not equate to the left in the sense that is most common in America these days. The majority of the left, these days, want a large economic government and a small social government. Stalin, on the other hand, wanted large governments in both areas and his and other socialist ideologies can hardly be claimed to be representative of the majority of the left today.

You do get the occasional facist socialist party, such as the BNP, but they are a rarity. Facism is a right wing phenomena on the whole.

 

[Ardent Listener]

Webster


Fascism a political philosophy, movement or regime that exalts nation and often race and stands for a centralized autocratic militaristic goverment. -
If the shoe fits.....right or left....wear it.

 

[The Conspirator]

This country is no were near a fascist state, the republicans are in charge cause when the Democrats were in charge they screw up, and not the republicans are screwing up and eventually the Democrats will take over again and then they will screw up and the pendulum will swing to the right again, then the left, then the right, then the left. Cause people don't have a memory span past 1 year.

Something I noticed, certain people, when ever they don't like the direction the country is taking, they brake out the "Were heading toward a fishiest" or "socialist state", ignoring all the positives of whats going on and focusing only on the negatives. Now I don't like the direction the country is taking but its definitely not heading toward becoming a fascist state.

 

[Darkdale]

the republican did not get the votes because they were the better choice, they got the votes through two methods, one rigging, two fear, and yes this is a big problem.

Sorry... that's just liberal paranoia as far as I'm concerned.

 

[bartdanr]

There are some good points on these posts. I'd like to address a couple of things, however.

First, the idea that democracy is a hedge against fascism is not entirely correct. Populist movements can easily turn fascist, and minorities can be persecuted by the majority, even in a democratic system. I think a better hedge against fascism is a strong, respected constitutional system of rights, such as the United States' Bill of Rights. (This, of course, depends on people actually respecting these rights, which can be overruled in the heat of public opinion.) A voting public with a strong sense of fairness and justice will also tend to keep fascism (or any oppressive government) at bay.

Second, the idea that the rich aren't paying "their fair share" of taxes: see http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/250.html for some information. Based upon information released from the IRS for taxe year 2003, here are some following facts:

*The top 1% earners (earning above $295,495) pay 34.27% of all income taxes, average rate 24.31% of income
*The top 5% earners (earning above $130,080) pay 54.36% of all income taxes, average rate 20.74% of income
*The top 50% earners (earning above $29,019) pay 96.54% of all income taxes, average rate 13.35% of income
*The bottom 50% earners (earning below $29.019) pay 3.46% of all income taxes, average rate 2.95% of income

It doesn't sound to me that the very wealthy aren't paying their "fair share" of income taxes (which is a pretty subjective measure), based upon the actual data.

Peace

 

[Darkdale]

It doesn't sound to me that the very wealthy aren't paying their "fair share" of income taxes (which is a pretty subjective measure), based upon the actual data.

Peace

Yes, but see, the bottom 50% are pissed off that they are in the bottom 50% and they blame the people in the upper 50% and would like nothing more than to stick it to em'.

Because hey, who provides the jobs? Large and Small Business owners. And if people hate their jobs or can't get a job because they spent their high school years smoking pot, reading playboy and eating Cheetos, they can't rightly blame themselves can they? No. It's societies fault. No, better yet, it is the fault of the people who provide the jobs, for not providing enough of them, or providing jobs that don't pay as well as people would like. right? Yeah, that makes sense.

A bunch of people who aren't providing work for anyone, not even themselves, are complaining that the people that DO provide jobs are the ones to blame for the crappy state of urban and rural America... yeah, sure... I'm convinced. I'm voting for Edwards in the next election, because I really want to put an end to these Two Americas! :biglaugh: The people who make money providing jobs aren't providing more jobs because then they'd be making more money, because there'd be more people working, making money and spending it on their products.

Yeah, the logic is there and if you don't see it, it's because you're spending too much time at your over-paid job, creating capital and industry and ignoring the compelling call of collective consciousness spewed from the mouths of liberal sycophants like Al Frankin, Al Sharpton and Al jazeera. :bonk:

 

[Faminedynasty]

And if people hate their jobs or can't get a job because they spent their high school years smoking pot, reading playboy and eating Cheetos, they can't rightly blame themselves can they? No. It's societies fault. No, better yet, it is the fault of the people who provide the jobs, for not providing enough of them, or providing jobs that don't pay as well as people would like. right?

It is very comforting to realize that 100% of America's (And hopefully all of the world's poor) are guilty of such complete laziness, stupidity and drug addiction. See, for a moment there I was seriously worried that countless millions of Americans who work hard fulltime and have families are living in poverty and without healthcare. But thank goodness this is not the case. Thank goodness that the capitalist system allows anyone who wants to to be rich, regardless of race, class, social circumstance, disability, having the pension they worked 30 years for revoked etc. Since the system is so flawless it's a wonder we aren't all millionaires!

 

[Darkdale]

It is very comforting to realize that 100% of America's (And hopefully all of the world's poor) are guilty of such complete laziness, stupidity and drug addiction. See, for a moment there I was seriously worried that countless millions of Americans who work hard fulltime and have families are living in poverty and without healthcare. But thank goodness this is not the case. Thank goodness that the capitalist system allows anyone who wants to to be rich, regardless of race, class, social circumstance, disability, having the pension they worked 30 years for revoked etc. Since the system is so flawless it's a wonder we aren't all millionaires!

lol and it's those damn greedy Business owners that are at fault. Those jerks just refuse to create more jobs because their mean, evil people that hate minorities and the poor. Right. OK.

Really, I'm just glad the when I was born, nature promised me a life of bliss, free healthcare and tabloid entertainment. Wait, nature promised me nothing. I mean, it's obvious that these capitalists are using capitalism to get rich, so I think the thing to do for the poor is to avoid capitalism, that way the poor will get rich too. Wait, hmmm, that sounds wrong too.

I guess it really is just awful that anyone is well-off these days. I mean, what we need is equality. If we all can't be millionaires then no one should. Equality is Justice, it's better we all have nothing than for the few to have much. One thing we don't want to do is to mimic the methods of the well-off, because that'd just be crazy! I mean, life is all just a roll of the dice anyway. There's no way if we all applied the methods of capitalists that we'd see the same results. I mean, until we are all born with the same opportunity, we're not responsible for our situation in life. Really, the people who should be responsible for me are the people who have the money already. Why should I have to follow suit? I mean, they are lucky enough to be rich, so they should give some to me. I'm just unlucky.

You know, it's wierd, as someone that has been relatively poor by American standards, I don't feel the least bit of envy toward the rich. I don't feel as though I'm owed anything. I don't think anyone is.