Is the US founded on "Christian values" ?

[Hevenly Heathen]

What?

Not sure if you have a religion or not, or have any defined sense of faith, but speaking as one who does, I can assure you that faith and religious beliefs can be very strengthening, and can give resolve to accomplish things that otherwise would be beyond our fortitude.

They can actually give people the courage to sign papers that are a literal death warrant, or take positions that they know will be catastrophic to them and even their families.

Haven't you ever heard of Sir Thomas More?

Yes I have.

But Wheaties could also give them strength, and character. I think we have shifted from the founding being influenced to settlers' strength base. Some came for religion, others not. You do not need a strong religious base, or one at all, to have principle and character, just the desire.
Using another person as an example or their actions as inspirational is not using their moral base as reason or influence. Yes, their moral base influenced them and gave them inspiration, but if I look up to Ghandi, I am not using what he based his moral base from as the base for my actions.

 

[Kathryn]

That's nice.

But we were talking about the formation of the United States and the US Constitution.

Not state constitutions that conflict with it.

Hmmm, and I guess state constitutions and documents like the ones I listed from the 100 years leading up to the Revolution had nothing to do with the formation of the United States.

Denial - not a river.

 

[Kathryn]

Yes I have.

But Wheaties could also give them strength, and character. I think we have shifted from the founding being influenced to settlers' strength base. Some came for religion, others not. You do not need a strong religious base, or one at all, to have principle and character, just the desire.
Using another person as an example or their actions as inspirational is not using their moral base as reason or influence. Yes, their moral base influenced them and gave them inspiration, but if I look up to Ghandi, I am not using what he based his moral base from as the base for my actions.

Okaaaaayyyy...

This honestly makes very little sense to me, but apparently it does to you. So there we have it.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Hmmm, and I guess state constitutions and documents like the ones I listed from the 100 years leading up to the Revolution had nothing to do with the formation of the United States.

Denial - not a river.

With the formation, yes. As a base for its founding, no.

One is the physical make up, the other the inclusion of these states into something new. But I would like to hear anything you may be willing to share where it demonstrates that building churches influenced the founding of the U.S., or anything where one could draw the conclusion that those documents influenced the drafting of the Constitution or minds of our Founding Fathers.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Okaaaaayyyy...

This honestly makes very little sense to me, but apparently it does to you. So there we have it.

Let me attempt to clarify:

If I use the Iriquois as inspiration, that doesn't mean I use their religious beliefs as my inspiration. Our Founding Fathers used their ways of governing as an example to follow, but they didn't attribute anything to Iriquios sprituality or morals. So why state that because people came here for religious freedom generations before, that their spirituality is the foundation or inspired it?

 

[Kathryn]

With the formation, yes. As a base for its founding, no.

One is the physical make up, the other the inclusion of these states into something new. But I would like to hear anything you may be willing to share where it demonstrates that building churches influenced the founding of the U.S., or anything where one could draw the conclusion that those documents influenced the drafting of the Constitution or minds of our Founding Fathers.

Where did building churches come into the discussion? Oh, right here.

Sorry - I'm done.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Where did building churches come into the discussion? Oh, right here.

Sorry - I'm done.

You brought it up with the documents you supplied as evidence of Christian morals in state documents.

 

[Kathryn]

No amount of actual evidence makes a bit of difference to those who are determined to disregard the importance that Christianity played in the founding of the United States - whether you agree with the application of that faith or the actions of those who claimed it or not.

This is how I feel about spending one more minute on this thread.

 

[Desert Snake]

Hmmm, and I guess state constitutions and documents like the ones I listed from the 100 years leading up to the Revolution had nothing to do with the formation of the United States.

Kathryn the only issue I might have with your postings is that at the time European cultural groups were linked to their religions, Religion was 'everyday' stuff for these people, most people attended church etc. So, one could expect that religion would be present in many written articles, it was normal at the time.
My point is that the mere fact that there is a "Freedom of Religion" clause signifies, to me at least, that they were trying to separate themselves from the religious grip that had held Europe for so long,...remember, many early Americans were getting away from religious persecution, I don't think that fact should be understated, freedom of religion (or no religion), was a major factor in why people came to America.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Come on Kathryn, you know no-one is saying anything of the sort.
But to present documents written by theocratic societies living in North America over 100 years before the formation of the United States as evidence of Christian influance in that formation is ridiculous. As is presenting state constitutions that predate or conflict with the US Constitution.

Do you understand why there was a Great Awakening? What was the necesity in the early 1800's for a Christian revival so monumental it gets it's own page in history?

"The great awakening " is very much a side issue.
At that time people everywhere suddenly found spirituality in all its forms, Not just main line Christian. In Europe and America Churches of all kinds flourished, even spiritualist ones. ( we still have one in our village still active) Non conformist to Catholic...all churches were full to brimming. As were the despised Unitarians.
It was a time of great change, great hardship., alcohol abuse, moral decline, the new industrial age.
The conditions were exactly right for a revolution of some sort... what was delivered was a religious revolution. it became a golden age of faith that hid the reality of everyones lives.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Kathryn the only issue I might have with your postings is that at the time European cultural groups were linked to their religions, Religion was 'everyday' stuff for these people, most people attended church etc. So, one could expect that religion would be present in many written articles, it was normal at the time.
My point is that the mere fact that there is a "Freedom of Religion" clause signifies, to me at least, that they were trying to separate themselves from the religious grip that had held Europe for so long,...remember, many early Americans were getting away from religious persecution, I don't think that fact should be understated, freedom of religion (or no religion), was a major factor in why people came to America.

That is the wrong spin on the reality.
After the revolution people were no different than before.

"Freedom of religion" was the only alternative available, when each State/colony had very different concepts of how their faith should be expressed. It enabled them to agree to differ about their chosen form of Christianity or lack of faith.
It was a catch all solution.
States still continued as before, as the words "freedom of Religion" can be interpreted in so many ways, as we see today on this forum.
It has never meant freedom from religion and was never thought to include other religions than the Christian denominations, as they were not yet a significant part of the population.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

What are these Christian values that the U.S. was founded on?

I asked before how obvious that it was that women and non-Europeans were mysteriously absent in the formation of the U.S. founding documents. Does this mean we need to nod our heads and recognize that the U.S. was founded on male values? Or European values?

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn the only issue I might have with your postings is that at the time European cultural groups were linked to their religions, Religion was 'everyday' stuff for these people, most people attended church etc. So, one could expect that religion would be present in many written articles, it was normal at the time.
My point is that the mere fact that there is a "Freedom of Religion" clause signifies, to me at least, that they were trying to separate themselves from the religious grip that had held Europe for so long,...remember, many early Americans were getting away from religious persecution, I don't think that fact should be understated, freedom of religion (or no religion), was a major factor in why people came to America.

I never said otherwise - I agree completely with your post.

My point ties in with yours, which is that religion so permeated their society that it could not HELP but be a great influence in the founding of this country. We have become such a secular society that it's hard for us to imagine the daily impact that religion had at that time.

 

[Kathryn]

What are these Christian values that the U.S. was founded on?

I asked before how obvious that it was that women and non-Europeans were mysteriously absent in the formation of the U.S. founding documents. Does this mean we need to nod our heads and recognize that the U.S. was founded on male values? Or European values?

Probably.

I didn't say whether or not I believe that the role that religion played in the founding of our nation was altogether a GOOD thing. The society at that time was certainly not "fair" and most definitely discriminatory, whether religion caused that or not (and a case could be made for either view).

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Probably.

I didn't say whether or not I believe that the role that religion played in the founding of our nation was altogether a GOOD thing. The society at that time was certainly not "fair" and most definitely discriminatory, whether religion caused that or not (and a case could be made for either view).

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, K. I'm trying not to be obnoxious by nagging for specific definable values, but it's why questions like this for me is difficult to answer. There's a HUGE grey area here, IMO.

 

[Kathryn]

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, K. I'm trying not to be obnoxious by nagging for specific definable values, but it's why questions like this for me is difficult to answer. There's a HUGE grey area here, IMO.

I understand.

Many, many posts back I defined some Christian values. I gave some examples, such as "the Golden Rule" and the Ten Commandments.

I went on to acknowledge that of course some other societies also have their own versions of these values which are very similar, or in some cases identical. That's cool. But just as those societies wouldn't call themselves "Christian" societies, I wouldn't think we should call early American/European societies "Shinto" or whatever. The difference is that, along with these values, Europeans also practiced Christianity, which is the following of the doctrines of Jesus Christ. In other words, Christianity is the basket they used to carry such values. Other societies use other baskets, if that makes sense.

I also went on to point out that values are ideals and goals and that we often fall short of them.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I understand.

Many, many posts back I defined some Christian values. I gave some examples, such as "the Golden Rule" and the Ten Commandments.

I went on to acknowledge that of course some other societies also have their own versions of these values which are very similar, or in some cases identical. That's cool. But just as those societies wouldn't call themselves "Christian" societies, I wouldn't think we should call early American/European societies "Shinto" or whatever. The difference is that, along with these values, Europeans also practiced Christianity, which is the following of the doctrines of Jesus Christ. In other words, Christianity is the basket they used to carry such values. Other societies use other baskets, if that makes sense.

I also went on to point out that values are ideals and goals and that we often fall short of them.

Culturally, I agree. Christianity has been imbued in the foundation of the American family, the market, the system of justice, and how we wear our hats (not really, I just made that up). That can be perceived as hegemony and privilege or it can be perceived as critical in the formation of all we hold near and dear to our hearts with our enjoyment of providence and liberty.

It certainly strikes an emotional chord in a lot of people though.

 

[BruceDLimber]

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

I am sure that was Confucious.

No: that's in the scriptures of ALL the great religions!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[cablescavenger]

Not a US citizen, but I can´t think of a reason why you could say it is founded on christian values more than founded on plain "humanist" values.

I wonder how many of you think it is founded on christian values, and cause of my political and legal ignorance, also wondering if you do have good reasons and I am nuts

So, anxious to hear o.o

Why do you think US is founded on christian values? or why not?

No.

The US was founded by people who travelled from many different countries and bought with them many different faiths. The Constitution was set up to preserve these, not exclude them at the behest of a dominant faith.

 

[Kathryn]

No.

The US was founded by people who travelled from many different countries and bought with them many different faiths. The Constitution was set up to preserve these, not exclude them at the behest of a dominant faith.

That's very true, but that's not in conflict with the idea that the majority of the founders of our country were Christians and that the system of government that evolved over several centuries of European settlement in the "New World" was heavily influenced by their Christian beliefs.