Is the US founded on "Christian values" ?

[Hevenly Heathen]

My gosh, I just posted a brazillion of them, many of them state constitutions dating from the 1700s.

Do any of these mention specific morals from Christianity that are to be followed, or do they simply state some generic 'by the will of God' or 'by God's grace'?

 

[Me Myself]

Do any of these mention specific morals from Christianity that are to be followed, or do they simply state some generic 'by the will of God' or 'by God's grace'?

If not, this would be my point exactly.

 

[Kathryn]

Do any of these mention specific morals from Christianity that are to be followed, or do they simply state some generic 'by the will of God' or 'by God's grace'?

Please go back to posts 133 and 135 and read them for details. And no, they are NOT generic at all - whatsoever.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Please go back to posts 133 and 135 and read them for details. And no, they are NOT generic at all - whatsoever.

I read 133, and 135 until it was obvious that these were systems of governing prior to our U.S. becoming a country.

Benjamin Franklin's speech is nothing more than an individual expressing his own spiritual gratitude, but does not speak for anyone else.

They were specific, thank you.

 

[tumbleweed41]

It amazes me when I read some of these posts. I think to myself, "My gosh, has this person actually been to Washington DC and toured the historical sites?" One thing that strikes me every time I visit DC is that the Christian faith is evident in so MANY of the historical monuments. I mean, right there in plain sight - SHAMELESSLY evident in fact.

Your talking about historical monuments from the so called "Great Awakening", not from the Revolution.
Have you ever wondered why there was a Great Awakening in the early 18th century?

 

[Kathryn]

I read 133, and 135 until it was obvious that these were systems of governing prior to our U.S. becoming a country.

Benjamin Franklin's speech is nothing more than an individual expressing his own spiritual gratitude, but does not speak for anyone else.

They were specific, thank you.

Sigh.

As I've stated, and I do believe it should be obvious to most people who read history - countries and systems of government don't generally spring from the ground instantaneously and fully formed.

It's very difficult to actually get around and avoid the very blatant presence of Christianity as a major force in the development of the North America under European colonization and the eventual formation of the United States.

But congratulations, I guess -if this was your mission, you've accomplished it, apparently!

 

[Kathryn]

Your talking about historical monuments from the so called "Great Awakening", not from the Revolution.
Have you ever wondered why there was a Great Awakening in the early 18th century?

I'm talking about STATE CONSTITUTIONS from 1776 as well, and government documents from the Mayflower and Plymouth and Jamestown, just to name a few. See above post.

But I am starting to really get tired of repeating myself.

 

[McBell]

Of course not...
No country's birth can be defined by a single value, Christian or otherwise.

To day it would be easiest to define America by the value of the Dollar.

I understand that you refuse to present even one of the many book fulls of Christian values, but do you really have to be so blatantly dishonest about it?

i mean, you already look as though you are talking out your backside with your refusal to present even one of them, but to try this blatant red herring of a strawman makes it even worse.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I'm talking about STATE CONSTITUTIONS from 1776 as well, and government documents from the Mayflower and Plymouth and Jamestown, just to name a few. See above post.

But I am starting to really get tired of repeating myself.

Perhaps I was confused by your statement of...

My gosh, has this person actually been to Washington DC and toured the historical sites?" One thing that strikes me every time I visit DC is that the Christian faith is evident in so MANY of the historical monuments. I mean, right there in plain sight

And the Mayflower Compact, and the Jamestown and Plymouth documents were written over a hundred years before the founding of the United States of America.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Sigh.

As I've stated, and I do believe it should be obvious to most people who read history - countries and systems of government don't generally spring from the ground instantaneously and fully formed.

It's very difficult to actually get around and avoid the very blatant presence of Christianity as a major force in the development of the North America under European colonization and the eventual formation of the United States.

But congratulations, I guess -if this was your mission, you've accomplished it, apparently!

Now we are arguing evolution. When does our country become a country? How far back do we look to find it's foundations? Typically, in my experience, only those documents and actions which add momentum to our establishing the US, which firmly state our intentions and outlines what we wish to become, are our foundation. If we allow anything before these types of documents, where do we draw the line? Back in Europe? How far back? The Magna Carta? Much of what you posted were local governments with, more or less, the backing (or shmoozing of) the populace.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

It's very difficult to actually get around and avoid the very blatant presence of Christianity as a major force in the development of the North America under European colonization and the eventual formation of the United States.

This is a slippery slope. If we use such reasoning, could we logically assume that these first settlers are also responsible for the Communist Witch Hunts?

 

[Kathryn]

Perhaps I was confused by your statement of...



And the Mayflower Compact, and the Jamestown and Plymouth documents were written over a hundred years before the founding of the United States of America.

Are you saying that the Mayflower Compact, and the governments and groups of people in Jamestown and Plymouth didn't have much to do with the founding of our nation?

See earlier post regarding countries and governments springing fully formed from the earth.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

See earlier post regarding countries and governments springing fully formed from the earth.

Well, many Native Americans believe they came out of the Earth, and they were hear first... :run:

 

[Kathryn]

This is a slippery slope. If we use such reasoning, could we logically assume that these first settlers are also responsible for the Communist Witch Hunts?

I'd say that people and governments in what became the United States within the 150 years leading up to 1787 were pretty damn close to the action.

Are you saying that the settlers of Plymouth and Jamestown and New York and Pennsylvania in the 1600s had little to do with the founding of our country and our system of government that was put into place in the 1700s?

 

[Kathryn]

Well, many Native Americans believe they came out of the Earth, and they were hear first... :run:

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

I'd say that people and governments in what became the United States within the 150 years leading up to 1787 were pretty damn close to the action.

Are you saying that the settlers of Plymouth and Jamestown and New York and Pennsylvania in the 1600s had little to do with the founding of our country and our system of government that was put into place in the 1700s?

Yes and no. The message we learn from them is their reason, and I believe that their reason for settling and their struggles are what helped found this nation, not their religion. I believe that this is what was in the minds of our Forefathers as they looked at what needed to be done. That this land was sought by those who were seeking freedom. Freedom from oppression, freedom to worship, freedom from society... And that these people found a place where they could do so, and they sought to establish states revolving around their reasons for fleeing. I cannot picture in my mind people sitting down and discussing religion and religious morals while chosing to sign papers which were a literal death warrant if they were caught. If they were very much aware of what would happen if they were caught, why would they leave out religious references and prayers out of the Declaration?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Are you saying that the Mayflower Compact, and the governments and groups of people in Jamestown and Plymouth didn't have much to do with the founding of our nation?

See earlier post regarding countries and governments springing fully formed from the earth.

Come on Kathryn, you know no-one is saying anything of the sort.
But to present documents written by theocratic societies living in North America over 100 years before the formation of the United States as evidence of Christian influance in that formation is ridiculous. As is presenting state constitutions that predate or conflict with the US Constitution.

Do you understand why there was a Great Awakening? What was the necesity in the early 1800's for a Christian revival so monumental it gets it's own page in history?

 

[Kathryn]

Yes and no. The message we learn from them is their reason, and I believe that their reason for settling and their struggles are what helped found this nation, not their religion. I believe that this is what was in the minds of our Forefathers as they looked at what needed to be done. That this land was sought by those who were seeking freedom. Freedom from oppression, freedom to worship, freedom from society... And that these people found a place where they could do so, and they sought to establish states revolving around their reasons for fleeing. I cannot picture in my mind people sitting down and discussing religion and religious morals while chosing to sign papers which were a literal death warrant if they were caught. If they were very much aware of what would happen if they were caught, why would they leave out religious references and prayers out of the Declaration?

What?

Not sure if you have a religion or not, or have any defined sense of faith, but speaking as one who does, I can assure you that faith and religious beliefs can be very strengthening, and can give resolve to accomplish things that otherwise would be beyond our fortitude.

They can actually give people the courage to sign papers that are a literal death warrant, or take positions that they know will be catastrophic to them and even their families.

Haven't you ever heard of Sir Thomas More?

 

[Kathryn]

Come on Kathryn, you know no-one is saying anything of the sort.
But to present documents written by theocratic societies living in North America over 100 years before the formation of the United States as evidence of Christian influance in that formation is ridiculous. As is presenting state constitutions that predate or conflict with the US Constitution.

I believe that people are saying exactly the sort. And I also included numerous documents from the late 1700s as well.

In fact, religious requirements in state constitutions were not specifically outlawed till 1868 - and even then, seven state constitutions were not amended:

Religious discrimination in state constitutions

When the U.S. Constitution and its first ten Amendments were written, the authors included guarantees of religious freedom among the federal civil service and officeholders. Article 6 of the Constitution states:

"No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

Inclusion of this clause was probably partly motivated by the large number of non-Christians among the authors of the Constitution, including many Deists.

However, many state constitutions -- when originally written -- required officeholders to believe in a God (or Gods or a Goddess, or Goddesses, or a God and a Goddess, or Gods and Goddesses). Most Constitutions didn't specify the number or sex.

After the 14th Amendment to the Constitution was proclaimed on 1868-JUL-21, its Article 6 became binding on individual states. The religious requirement clauses in state constitutions became null and void. The 14th Amendment stated:

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States."

Still, the clauses remain on the books in a few states AR, MD, MA, NC, PA, SC, TN & TX), and are occasionally dusted off in the media when someone wants to bash Atheists, Agnostics, etc.

 

[tumbleweed41]

That's nice.

But we were talking about the formation of the United States and the US Constitution.

Not state constitutions that conflict with it.