Jacksnyte
Reverend
Actually, it was re-written as a song I was required to sing every morning in Elementary school called "America"(AKA "My Country Tis of Thee")
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Is the US founded on "Christian values" ?
- Thread starter Me Myself
- Start date
Actually, it was re-written as a song I was required to sing every morning in Elementary school called "America"(AKA "My Country Tis of Thee")
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Those were all values normal at the time in both Europe and what was to become America.
At that time American and European "Values" would have been indistinguishable from each other, and easily supported by the theology of that time, especially in regard to the position of women and slavery. Those changes were to come much later.
Europe was enmeshed in anti monarchy ideas, with much talk of republics.
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Jacksnyte
Reverend
It was also modelled after the Six Nations (Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga and Seneca nations) example.
The American Constitution was written in 1787. The French Revolution, which led to the French Republic, began in 1789. So, if you are arguing that the idea of a republic was modeled on the French Republic, Terry, then are you also arguing the American Founders were clairvoyants?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
This is clearly not the case, as the early Americans were forming a government specifically different from any European one at the time. Even in their personal beliefs, the early Americans differed dramatically from the European "norm".
In any case the mere fact of america having "Freedom of Religion" differs greatly from European governmental standards of the time.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
So some suggest and others doubt.
I am not so sure white America was that keen of Native Ameticans in the 1750's , especially when a fair number of them fought on the establishment side.
The war of independence was as much a civil war as a war aginst the British. Far more of the dead on each side were colonists. Most of the British army was recruited from colonists.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
DECLARATION AND RESOLVES OF THE FIRST CONTINENTAL CONGRESS
OCTOBER 14, 1774
Whereas, since the close of the last war, the British parliament, claiming a power, of right, to bind the people of America by statutes in all cases whatsoever, hath, in some acts, expressly imposed taxes on them, and in others, under various presences, but in fact for the purpose of raising a revenue, hath imposed rates and duties payable in these colonies, established a board of commissioners, with unconstitutional powers, and extended the jurisdiction of courts of admiralty, not only for collecting the said duties, but for the trial of causes merely arising within the body of a county:
And whereas, in consequence of other statutes, judges, who before held only estates at will in their offices, have been made dependant on the crown alone for their salaries, and standing armies kept in times of peace: And whereas it has lately been resolved in parliament, that by force of a statute, made in the thirty-fifth year of the reign of King Henry the Eighth, colonists may be transported to England, and tried there upon accusations for treasons and misprisions, or concealments of treasons committed in the colonies, and by a late statute, such trials have been directed in cases therein mentioned:
And whereas, in the last session of parliament, three statutes were made; one entitled, "An act to discontinue, in such manner and for such time as are therein mentioned, the landing and discharging, lading, or shipping of goods, wares and merchandise, at the town, and within the harbour of Boston, in the province of Massachusetts-Bay in New England;" another entitled, "An act for the better regulating the government of the province of Massachusetts-Bay in New England;" and another entitled, "An act for the impartial administration of justice, in the cases of persons questioned for any act done by them in the execution of the law, or for the suppression of riots and tumults, in the province of the Massachusetts-Bay in New England;" and another statute was then made, "for making more effectual provision for the government of the province of Quebec, etc." All which statutes are impolitic, unjust, and cruel, as well as unconstitutional, and most dangerous and destructive of American rights:
And whereas, assemblies have been frequently dissolved, contrary to the rights of the people, when they attempted to deliberate on grievances; and their dutiful, humble, loyal, and reasonable petitions to the crown for redress, have been repeatedly treated with contempt, by his Majesty's ministers of state:
The good people of the several colonies of New-Hampshire, Massachusetts-Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, Newcastle, Kent, and Sussex on Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North- Carolina and South-Carolina, justly alarmed at these arbitrary proceedings of parliament and administration, have severally elected, constituted, and appointed deputies to meet, and sit in general Congress, in the city of Philadelphia, in order to obtain such establishment, as that their religion, laws, and liberties, may not be subverted: Whereupon the deputies so appointed being now assembled, in a full and free representation of these colonies, taking into their most serious consideration, the best means of attaining the ends aforesaid, do, in the first place, as Englishmen, their ancestors in like cases have usually done, for asserting and vindicating their rights and liberties, DECLARE,
That the inhabitants of the English colonies in North-America, by the immutable laws of nature, the principles of the English constitution, and the several charters or compacts, have the following RIGHTS:
Resolved , N.C.D. 1. That they are entitled to life, liberty and property: and they have never ceded to any foreign power whatever, a right to dispose of either without their consent.
Resolved , N.C.D. 2. That our ancestors, who first settled these colonies, were at the time of their emigration from the mother country, entitled to all the rights, liberties, and immunities of free and natural- born subjects, within the realm of England.
Resolved , N.C.D. 3. That by such emigration they by no means forfeited, surrendered, or lost any of those rights, but that they were, and their descendants now are, entitled to the exercise and enjoyment of all such of them, as their local and other circumstances enable them to exercise and enjoy.
Resolved , N.C.D. 4. That the foundation of English liberty, and of all free government, is a right in the people to participate in their legislative council: and as the English colonists are not represented, and from their local and other circumstances, cannot properly be represented in the British parliament, they are entitled to a free and exclusive power of legislation in their several provincial legislatures, where their right of representation can alone be preserved, in all cases of taxation and internal polity, subject only to the negative of their sovereign, in such manner as has been heretofore used and accustomed: But, from the necessity of the case, and a regard to the mutual interest of both countries, we cheerfully consent to the operation of such acts of the British parliament, as are bonfide, restrained to the regulation of our external commerce, for the purpose of securing the commercial advantages of the whole empire to the mother country, and the commercial benefits of its respective members; excluding every idea of taxation internal or external, for raising a revenue on the subjects, in America, without their consent.
Resolved , N.C.D. 5. That the respective colonies are entitled to the common law of England, and more especially to the great and inestimable privilege of being tried by their peers of the vicinage, according to the course of that law.
Resolved , N.C.D. 6. That they are entitled to the benefit of such of the English statutes, as existed at the time of their colonization; and which they have, by experience, respectively found to be applicable to their several local and other circumstances.
Resolved , N.C.D. 7. That these, his Majesty's colonies, are likewise entitled to all the immunities and privileges granted and confirmed to them by royal charters, or secured by their several codes of provincial laws.
Resolved , N.C.D. 8. That they have a right peaceably to assemble, consider of their grievances, and petition the king; and that all prosecutions, prohibitory proclamations, and commitments for the same, are illegal.
Resolved , N.C.D. 9. That the keeping a standing army in these colonies, in times of peace, without the consent of the legislature of that colony, in which such army is kept, is against law.
Resolved , N.C.D. 10. It is indispensably necessary to good government, and rendered essential by the English constitution, that the constituent branches of the legislature be independent of each other; that, therefore, the exercise of legislative power in several colonies, by a council appointed, during pleasure, by the crown, is unconstitutional, dangerous and destructive to the freedom of American legislation.
All and each of which the aforesaid deputies, in behalf of themselves, and their constituents, do claim, demand, and insist on, as their indubitable rights and liberties, which cannot be legally taken from them, altered or abridged by any power whatever, without their own consent, by their representatives in their several provincial legislature.
In the course of our inquiry, we find many infringements and violations of the foregoing rights, which, from an ardent desire, that harmony and mutual intercourse of affection and interest may be restored, we pass over for the present, and proceed to state such acts and measures as have been adopted since the last war, which demonstrate a system formed to enslave America.
Resolved , N.C.D. That the following acts of parliament are infringements and violations of the rights of the colonists; and that the repeal of them is essentially necessary, in order to restore harmony between Great Britain and the American colonies, viz.
The several acts of Geo. III. ch. 15, and ch. 34.-5 Geo. III. ch.25.-6 Geo. ch. 52.-7 Geo.III. ch. 41 and ch. 46.-8 Geo. III. ch. 22. which impose duties for the purpose of raising a revenue in America, extend the power of the admiralty courts beyond their ancient limits, deprive the American subject of trial by jury, authorize the judges certificate to indemnify the prosecutor from damages, that he might otherwise be liable to, requiring oppressive security from a claimant of ships and goods seized, before he shall be allowed to defend his property, and are subversive of American rights.
Also 12 Geo. III. ch. 24, intituled, "An act for the better securing his majesty's dockyards, magazines, ships, ammunition, and stores," which declares a new offence in America, and deprives the American subject of a constitutional trial by jury of the vicinage, by authorizing the trial of any person, charged with the committing any offence described in the said act, out of the realm, to be indicted and tried for the same in any shire or county within the realm.
OCTOBER 14, 1774
Whereas, since the close of the last war, the British parliament, claiming a power, of right, to bind the people of America by statutes in all cases whatsoever, hath, in some acts, expressly imposed taxes on them, and in others, under various presences, but in fact for the purpose of raising a revenue, hath imposed rates and duties payable in these colonies, established a board of commissioners, with unconstitutional powers, and extended the jurisdiction of courts of admiralty, not only for collecting the said duties, but for the trial of causes merely arising within the body of a county:
And whereas, in consequence of other statutes, judges, who before held only estates at will in their offices, have been made dependant on the crown alone for their salaries, and standing armies kept in times of peace: And whereas it has lately been resolved in parliament, that by force of a statute, made in the thirty-fifth year of the reign of King Henry the Eighth, colonists may be transported to England, and tried there upon accusations for treasons and misprisions, or concealments of treasons committed in the colonies, and by a late statute, such trials have been directed in cases therein mentioned:
And whereas, in the last session of parliament, three statutes were made; one entitled, "An act to discontinue, in such manner and for such time as are therein mentioned, the landing and discharging, lading, or shipping of goods, wares and merchandise, at the town, and within the harbour of Boston, in the province of Massachusetts-Bay in New England;" another entitled, "An act for the better regulating the government of the province of Massachusetts-Bay in New England;" and another entitled, "An act for the impartial administration of justice, in the cases of persons questioned for any act done by them in the execution of the law, or for the suppression of riots and tumults, in the province of the Massachusetts-Bay in New England;" and another statute was then made, "for making more effectual provision for the government of the province of Quebec, etc." All which statutes are impolitic, unjust, and cruel, as well as unconstitutional, and most dangerous and destructive of American rights:
And whereas, assemblies have been frequently dissolved, contrary to the rights of the people, when they attempted to deliberate on grievances; and their dutiful, humble, loyal, and reasonable petitions to the crown for redress, have been repeatedly treated with contempt, by his Majesty's ministers of state:
The good people of the several colonies of New-Hampshire, Massachusetts-Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, Newcastle, Kent, and Sussex on Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North- Carolina and South-Carolina, justly alarmed at these arbitrary proceedings of parliament and administration, have severally elected, constituted, and appointed deputies to meet, and sit in general Congress, in the city of Philadelphia, in order to obtain such establishment, as that their religion, laws, and liberties, may not be subverted: Whereupon the deputies so appointed being now assembled, in a full and free representation of these colonies, taking into their most serious consideration, the best means of attaining the ends aforesaid, do, in the first place, as Englishmen, their ancestors in like cases have usually done, for asserting and vindicating their rights and liberties, DECLARE,
That the inhabitants of the English colonies in North-America, by the immutable laws of nature, the principles of the English constitution, and the several charters or compacts, have the following RIGHTS:
Resolved , N.C.D. 1. That they are entitled to life, liberty and property: and they have never ceded to any foreign power whatever, a right to dispose of either without their consent.
Resolved , N.C.D. 2. That our ancestors, who first settled these colonies, were at the time of their emigration from the mother country, entitled to all the rights, liberties, and immunities of free and natural- born subjects, within the realm of England.
Resolved , N.C.D. 3. That by such emigration they by no means forfeited, surrendered, or lost any of those rights, but that they were, and their descendants now are, entitled to the exercise and enjoyment of all such of them, as their local and other circumstances enable them to exercise and enjoy.
Resolved , N.C.D. 4. That the foundation of English liberty, and of all free government, is a right in the people to participate in their legislative council: and as the English colonists are not represented, and from their local and other circumstances, cannot properly be represented in the British parliament, they are entitled to a free and exclusive power of legislation in their several provincial legislatures, where their right of representation can alone be preserved, in all cases of taxation and internal polity, subject only to the negative of their sovereign, in such manner as has been heretofore used and accustomed: But, from the necessity of the case, and a regard to the mutual interest of both countries, we cheerfully consent to the operation of such acts of the British parliament, as are bonfide, restrained to the regulation of our external commerce, for the purpose of securing the commercial advantages of the whole empire to the mother country, and the commercial benefits of its respective members; excluding every idea of taxation internal or external, for raising a revenue on the subjects, in America, without their consent.
Resolved , N.C.D. 5. That the respective colonies are entitled to the common law of England, and more especially to the great and inestimable privilege of being tried by their peers of the vicinage, according to the course of that law.
Resolved , N.C.D. 6. That they are entitled to the benefit of such of the English statutes, as existed at the time of their colonization; and which they have, by experience, respectively found to be applicable to their several local and other circumstances.
Resolved , N.C.D. 7. That these, his Majesty's colonies, are likewise entitled to all the immunities and privileges granted and confirmed to them by royal charters, or secured by their several codes of provincial laws.
Resolved , N.C.D. 8. That they have a right peaceably to assemble, consider of their grievances, and petition the king; and that all prosecutions, prohibitory proclamations, and commitments for the same, are illegal.
Resolved , N.C.D. 9. That the keeping a standing army in these colonies, in times of peace, without the consent of the legislature of that colony, in which such army is kept, is against law.
Resolved , N.C.D. 10. It is indispensably necessary to good government, and rendered essential by the English constitution, that the constituent branches of the legislature be independent of each other; that, therefore, the exercise of legislative power in several colonies, by a council appointed, during pleasure, by the crown, is unconstitutional, dangerous and destructive to the freedom of American legislation.
All and each of which the aforesaid deputies, in behalf of themselves, and their constituents, do claim, demand, and insist on, as their indubitable rights and liberties, which cannot be legally taken from them, altered or abridged by any power whatever, without their own consent, by their representatives in their several provincial legislature.
In the course of our inquiry, we find many infringements and violations of the foregoing rights, which, from an ardent desire, that harmony and mutual intercourse of affection and interest may be restored, we pass over for the present, and proceed to state such acts and measures as have been adopted since the last war, which demonstrate a system formed to enslave America.
Resolved , N.C.D. That the following acts of parliament are infringements and violations of the rights of the colonists; and that the repeal of them is essentially necessary, in order to restore harmony between Great Britain and the American colonies, viz.
The several acts of Geo. III. ch. 15, and ch. 34.-5 Geo. III. ch.25.-6 Geo. ch. 52.-7 Geo.III. ch. 41 and ch. 46.-8 Geo. III. ch. 22. which impose duties for the purpose of raising a revenue in America, extend the power of the admiralty courts beyond their ancient limits, deprive the American subject of trial by jury, authorize the judges certificate to indemnify the prosecutor from damages, that he might otherwise be liable to, requiring oppressive security from a claimant of ships and goods seized, before he shall be allowed to defend his property, and are subversive of American rights.
Also 12 Geo. III. ch. 24, intituled, "An act for the better securing his majesty's dockyards, magazines, ships, ammunition, and stores," which declares a new offence in America, and deprives the American subject of a constitutional trial by jury of the vicinage, by authorizing the trial of any person, charged with the committing any offence described in the said act, out of the realm, to be indicted and tried for the same in any shire or county within the realm.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
Also the three acts passed in the last session of parliament, for stopping the port and blocking up the harbour of Boston, for altering the charter and government of Massachusetts-Bay, and that which is entitled, "An act for the better administration of justice, etc."
Also the act passed in the same session for establishing the Roman Catholic religion, in the province of Quebec, abolishing the equitable system of English laws, and erecting a tyranny there, to the great danger (from so total a dissimilarity of religion, law and government) of the neighboring British colonies, by the assistance of whose blood and treasure the said country was conquered from France.
Also the act passed in the same session, for the better providing suitable quarters for officers and soldiers in his majesty's service, in North-America.
Also, that the keeping a standing army in several of these colonies, in time of peace, without the consent of the legislature of that colony, in which such army is kept, is against law.
To these grievous acts and measures, Americans cannot submit, but in hopes their fellow subjects in Great Britain will, on a revision of them, restore us to that state, in which both countries found happiness and prosperity, we have for the present, only resolved to pursue the following peaceable measures: 1. To enter into a non-importation, non-consumption, and non-exportation agreement or association. 2. To prepare an address to the people of Great-Britain, and a memorial to the inhabitants of British America: and 3. To prepare a loyal address to his majesty, agreeable to resolutions already entered into.
For reference.
Also the act passed in the same session for establishing the Roman Catholic religion, in the province of Quebec, abolishing the equitable system of English laws, and erecting a tyranny there, to the great danger (from so total a dissimilarity of religion, law and government) of the neighboring British colonies, by the assistance of whose blood and treasure the said country was conquered from France.
Also the act passed in the same session, for the better providing suitable quarters for officers and soldiers in his majesty's service, in North-America.
Also, that the keeping a standing army in several of these colonies, in time of peace, without the consent of the legislature of that colony, in which such army is kept, is against law.
To these grievous acts and measures, Americans cannot submit, but in hopes their fellow subjects in Great Britain will, on a revision of them, restore us to that state, in which both countries found happiness and prosperity, we have for the present, only resolved to pursue the following peaceable measures: 1. To enter into a non-importation, non-consumption, and non-exportation agreement or association. 2. To prepare an address to the people of Great-Britain, and a memorial to the inhabitants of British America: and 3. To prepare a loyal address to his majesty, agreeable to resolutions already entered into.
For reference.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
True. The Revolution was not the most popular idea among the colonists. In fact, if King George and Parliament had reacted a little differently to the initial rabble-rousers , the Revolution may have been a dismal failure.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
America did not have "freedom of Religion" at that time. Each of the colonies had established religions.
Fredom of religion only became necessary to reconcile the various colonies and their Christian denominations, when independence becam a fact. There was no thought of freeing religions such as Islam or eastern religions as they were not even a mist on the horizon. However they have benefited by the broad nature of the wording.
Phil, the majority of people don't even study History and most likely could not find China on a globe. They have no aspirations to ever travel and could give a rats bottom about anything that happened 20 years ago much less 200 years.
The education we give our citizens is pathetic because we get what we pay for, substandard teachers protected by their unions. It is all about the teachers and not the children.
I did fair at best when I went to high school. 10 years later when I went to college, I was in the top percentile of my classmates. Did I get smarter? Hell no! Our educational requirement fell right into the toliet.
Kids leave public education and can barely read, most likely have never read a book and would be hard pressed to balance a check book.
We have college grads that do not even know how to network and find a job. How on earth did I ever get ahead back in the day before computers, cellphone and social networks?
Why on earth do we allow students to study things that have no value in the real world? That is what a minor is for, enjoyment. Your major is suppose to put money in your pocket.
You want to know why folks network poorly now? They have no social skills. It is no wonder, they will text each other while in the same room.
Evolution will correct this problem however when they die on the road while texting or just plain walk off a cliff because of staring at a little screen.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
True... the British government was inept ...But not accustomed to disobedience.
it thought the rebels to be in defiance of the law.
But when you look at the facts, they did not even send reinforcements. Had they done so England would be saddled with American problems to this day...
Actually we still seem to be... in one way or another.
The Establishment of a sovereign state in America was inevitable.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Oh really? Let's take a look:
1620 "farewell to Europe" sermon by the Reverent John Robinson to the Pilgrims as they prepared to leave for the New World:
"I Charge you before God and his blessed angels that you follow me no further than you have seen me follow Christ. If God reveal anything to you by any other instrument of His, be as ready to receive it as you were to receive any truth from my ministry, for I am verily persuaded the Lord hath more truth and light yet to break forth from His holy word.
"The Lutherans cannot be drawn to go beyond what Luther saw. Whatever part of His will our God has revealed to Calvin, they (Lutherans) will rather die than embrace it; and the Calvinists, you see, stick fast where they were left by that great man of God, who yet saw not all things. This is a misery much to be lamented.
"For though they were precious shining lights in their time, yet God has not revealed his whole will to them. And were they now living, they would be as ready and willing to embrace further light, as they had received."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Robinson_(pastor)
From William Bradford, the second governor of the Pilgrims:
SEPTEMBER 16, 1620, according to the Gregorian Calendar, 102 passengers set sail on the Pilgrims ship, Mayflower. Their 66-day journey of 2,750 miles encountered storms so rough the beam supporting the main mast cracked and was propped back in place with a great iron screw. One youth, John Howland, was swept overboard by a freezing wave and rescued. His descendants include Ralph Waldo Emerson, Humphrey Bogart, Franklin D. Roosevelt and George W. Bush. During the Pilgrims voyage, a man died and a mother gave birth.
Intending to land in Virginia, they were blown off-course. Of their landing, Governor William Bradford wrote: Being thus arrived in a good harbor, and brought safe to land, they fell upon their knees and blessed the God of Heaven who had brought them over the vast and furious ocean, and delivered them from all the perils and miseries thereof, again to set their feet on the firm and stable earth, their proper element.
Though half died that first bitter winter, Governor William Bradford wrote:
Last and not least, they cherished a great hope and inward zeal of laying good foundations for the propagation and advance of the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in the remote parts of the world.
American Minute — The Great Pilgrim Spirit | The Moral Liberal
The Mayflower Compact:
n the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.
Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.
In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the 11th of November, in the year of the reign of our Sovereign Lord King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth, 1620.
Mayflower Compact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Reverend John Witherspoon was the only member of clergy to sign the Declaration of Independence. He was the President and chief lecturer of the college that became Princeton. He personally taught a vice president, 21 senators, 39 representatives, 56 state legislators, and 33 judges, three of which went on to serve on the Supreme Court. Eleven percent of his students went on to become presidents of other colleges. His most notable student was James Madison -aka the "Father of the Constitution."
Witherspoon derived his views of government from the principles of Lex Rex. This was a book published in 1644 by Rev Samual Rutherford, who asserted that all law must be biblically based, and that ALL powers, including the monarchy, answer to the God of the Bible.
But let's go back even further, to Jamestown, which was settled by European immigrants in 1607. From the first charter of Virginia:
We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God, and may in time bring the Infidels and Savages, living in those parts, to human Civility, and to a settled and quiet Government: DO, by these our Letters Patents, graciously accept of, and agree to, their humble and well-intended Desires;
The Avalon Project : The First Charter of Virginia; April 10, 1606
From 1639, from the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut:
For as much as it hath pleased Almighty God by the wise disposition of his divine providence so to order and dispose of things that we the Inhabitants and Residents of Windsor, Hartford and Wethersfield are now cohabiting and dwelling in and upon the River of Connectecotte and the lands thereunto adjoining; and well knowing where a people are gathered together the word of God requires that to maintain the peace and union of such a people there should be an orderly and decent Government established according to God, to order and dispose of the affairs of the people at all seasons as occasion shall require; do therefore associate and conjoin ourselves to be as one Public State or Commonwealth; and do for ourselves and our successors and such as shall be adjoined to us at any time hereafter, enter into Combination and Confederation together, to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus which we now profess, as also, the discipline of the Churches, which according to the truth of the said Gospel is now practiced amongst us; as also in our civil affairs to be guided and governed according to such Laws, Rules, Orders and Decrees as shall be made, ordered, and decreed as followeth:
The Fundamental Orders of 1639
From the New England Confederation of 1643:
Whereas we all came into these parts of America with one and the same end and aim, namely, to advance the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ and to enjoy the liberties of the Gospel in purity with peace; and whereas in our settling (by a wise providence of God) we are further dispersed upon the sea coasts and rivers than was at first intended, so that we can not according to our desire with convenience communicate in one government and jurisdiction;
Avalon Project - The Articles of Confederation of the United Colonies of New England; May 19, 1643
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Originally Posted by Sunstone
The American Constitution was written in 1787. The French Revolution, which led to the French Republic, began in 1789. So, if you are arguing that the idea of a republic was modeled on the French Republic, Terry, then are you also arguing the American Founders were clairvoyants?
Your dates are quite right ...Europe was a melting pot (And so seems was my mind)
Frances involvement in the American revolution helped to set the scene for the escalation of the French into revolution.
Before it became the first republic it meandered in a Constitutional monarchy, which was no less a disaster than the Absolute Monarchy it replaced. Or the republic that followed.
All this time England was scared stiff of revolution and there was much talk about a republic.
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Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
BUT WAIT - THERE'S MORE!
In 1665, the colonial legislature of New York passed a law requiring the people of every parish to build a church large enough to hold 200 people.
In 1695 this law, which is typical of "Sunday laws" passed in the colonies, read:
Whereas the true and sincere service and worship of God, according to His holy will and commandments, is often profaned and neglected by many of the inhabitants and sojourners of this Providence, who do not keep holy the Lord's Day, but in a disorderly manner accustom themselves to travel, laboring, working, shooting, fishing, sporting, playing, horseracing, frequenting of tippling houses, and the using many other unlawful exercises and pastimes upon the Lord's Day, to the great scandal of the Holy Christian faith:
By the way, look up the history of Blue Laws in this country while you're at it.
FindLaw | Cases and Codes
Then take a look at the state constitutions as well:
Delaware Constitution 1776:
ART. 22. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit:
" I, A B. will bear true allegiance to the Delaware State, submit to its constitution and laws, and do no act wittingly whereby the freedom thereof may be prejudiced."
And also make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit:
" I, A B. do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
The Avalon Project : Constitution of Delaware; 1776
New Jersey Constitution of 1776:
XVIII. That no person shall ever, within this Colony, be
deprived of the inestimable privilege of worshipping Almighty God
in a manner agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; nor,
under any pretence whatever, be compelled to attend any place of
worship, contrary to his own faith and judgment; nor shall any
person, within this Colony, ever be obliged to pay tithes, taxes
or any other rates, for the purpose of building or repairing any
other church or churches, place or places of worship, or for the
maintenance of any minister or ministry, contrary to what he
believes to be right, or has deliberately or voluntarily engaged
himself to perform.
Text of NJ Constitution of 1776
Maryland constitution 1776:
XXXIII. That, as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to him; all persons, professing the Christian religion, are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore no person ought by any law to be molested in his person or estate on account of his religious persuasion or profession, or for his religious practice; unless, under colour of religion, any man shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others, in their natural, civil, or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent or maintain, or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain any particular place of worship, or any particular ministry; yet the Legislature may, in their discretion, lay a general and equal tax for the support of the Christian religion; leaving to each individual the power of appointing the payment over of the money, collected from him, to the support of any particular place of worship or minister, or for the benefit of the poor of his own denomination, or the poor in general of any particular county:
Constitution of Maryland, 1776
In Provincial Congress, Watertown, June 16th, 1775.
As it has pleased Almighty God in His Providence to suffer the calamities of an unnatural war to take place among us ... we have reason to lament the frequent prophanations of the Lord's-Day ... Resolved, that ... the people of all ranks and denominations ... pay a religious regard to that day ...
Holdings: In Provincial Congress, Watertown, June 16th, 1775.
Benjamin Franklin's speech to the men gathered to write the Constitution of the United States in 1787:
In this situation of this Assembly groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. -- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance.
I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall be become a reproach and a bye word down to future age. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human Wisdom, and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.
I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.
Online Speech Bank: Benjamin Franklin's Prayer Speech at the Constitutional Convention of 1787
I can get you a lot more if you like, but this should be enough to ponder for now.
In 1665, the colonial legislature of New York passed a law requiring the people of every parish to build a church large enough to hold 200 people.
In 1695 this law, which is typical of "Sunday laws" passed in the colonies, read:
Whereas the true and sincere service and worship of God, according to His holy will and commandments, is often profaned and neglected by many of the inhabitants and sojourners of this Providence, who do not keep holy the Lord's Day, but in a disorderly manner accustom themselves to travel, laboring, working, shooting, fishing, sporting, playing, horseracing, frequenting of tippling houses, and the using many other unlawful exercises and pastimes upon the Lord's Day, to the great scandal of the Holy Christian faith:
By the way, look up the history of Blue Laws in this country while you're at it.
FindLaw | Cases and Codes
Then take a look at the state constitutions as well:
Delaware Constitution 1776:
ART. 22. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit:
" I, A B. will bear true allegiance to the Delaware State, submit to its constitution and laws, and do no act wittingly whereby the freedom thereof may be prejudiced."
And also make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit:
" I, A B. do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
The Avalon Project : Constitution of Delaware; 1776
New Jersey Constitution of 1776:
XVIII. That no person shall ever, within this Colony, be
deprived of the inestimable privilege of worshipping Almighty God
in a manner agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; nor,
under any pretence whatever, be compelled to attend any place of
worship, contrary to his own faith and judgment; nor shall any
person, within this Colony, ever be obliged to pay tithes, taxes
or any other rates, for the purpose of building or repairing any
other church or churches, place or places of worship, or for the
maintenance of any minister or ministry, contrary to what he
believes to be right, or has deliberately or voluntarily engaged
himself to perform.
Text of NJ Constitution of 1776
Maryland constitution 1776:
XXXIII. That, as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to him; all persons, professing the Christian religion, are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore no person ought by any law to be molested in his person or estate on account of his religious persuasion or profession, or for his religious practice; unless, under colour of religion, any man shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others, in their natural, civil, or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent or maintain, or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain any particular place of worship, or any particular ministry; yet the Legislature may, in their discretion, lay a general and equal tax for the support of the Christian religion; leaving to each individual the power of appointing the payment over of the money, collected from him, to the support of any particular place of worship or minister, or for the benefit of the poor of his own denomination, or the poor in general of any particular county:
Constitution of Maryland, 1776
In Provincial Congress, Watertown, June 16th, 1775.
As it has pleased Almighty God in His Providence to suffer the calamities of an unnatural war to take place among us ... we have reason to lament the frequent prophanations of the Lord's-Day ... Resolved, that ... the people of all ranks and denominations ... pay a religious regard to that day ...
Holdings: In Provincial Congress, Watertown, June 16th, 1775.
Benjamin Franklin's speech to the men gathered to write the Constitution of the United States in 1787:
In this situation of this Assembly groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. -- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance.
I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall be become a reproach and a bye word down to future age. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human Wisdom, and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.
I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.
Online Speech Bank: Benjamin Franklin's Prayer Speech at the Constitutional Convention of 1787
I can get you a lot more if you like, but this should be enough to ponder for now.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
I am perfectly familiar in the differences between the Ideals of the Enlightenment and the beliefs of Christianity. As a person who has submerged himself in the thought process of a non-european paradigm It is exceedingly clear to me that the Enlightenment piggy backed on the reformation and what came before it. It was a by-product of Christian Culture. It might have not been a paradigm they liked but it was a natural evolution of their history.
Yes, they read the Greeks & Romans but so did medieval christians. It was the Christians who put the Greek and Roman thinkers in such high regard. Just read Dantas comments about the virtuous pagan Virgel or the apotheosis of the Greeks by the Scholasticism of the Medieval Universities. Even the Enlightenment thinkers love of all things Greek and Roman it turns out came from the Christians. Greeks they understood it through eyes of a Christian. Also the Enlightenment period was the manifestation of the schism that was Protestant in its very nature. I would say there is no Enlightenment without Luther. The proof of this is that The enlightenment took firmest roots in the lands most effected by him and his protestant brothers. This is a main stream historical view.
I would say the Enlightenment could have only taken place in a Christian Protestant culture. This is why I think your above post is wrong.
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Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
You also need to take into count the horrible persecution of Christians of different denotations in the early colonies. Here are just a few examples:
- Massachusetts Bay Colony executed Quakers.
-Virginia in 1632 requiring that their be a "uniformity throughout this colony both in substance and circumstance to the cannons and constitution of the Church of England." So Jerry Fawell could not have built Liberty Baptist College in that state.
- Puritans supported the Old European view that sanctioned the need for uniformity of religion in the state.
Before our founding fathers religious persecution was the law of the land. After the founding fathers we just persecuted non-Christians, and it stopped being a law except when it came to Native Americans.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
It wasn't just the Constitution OR the Declaration of Independence which formed the foundation of the country that became the United States, as my earlier, detailed, well sourced posts rather clearly show.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I didn't make any sort of moral judgment or conclusion on whether or not these "Christian values" were applied in a way I think is morally right. As far as I can tell, this isn't the question.