Is the US founded on "Christian values" ?

[Kathryn]

Can you point out something in our founding that is directly related to Christianity that is not based on anyother mode of faith or philosophy?

I never claimed that Christianity is the only belief system that teaches some of the same values as Christianity. But the Founding Fathers were not Buddhists, they didn't revere Krishna, they weren't Jewish or Muslim or Shinto. The majority of them were Christians who actively practiced their Christian faith.

Sorry - but that's just the historical truth.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

We can know what they believed in, but we cannot know what went through their minds when they were 'founding.' How do you explain the fact that Iriquios philosophy was used, and documented when nobody can cite that Chrisitanity was used as a model?

 

[Kathryn]

We can know what they believed in, but we cannot know what went through their minds when they were 'founding.' How do you explain the fact that Iriquios philosophy was used, and documented when nobody can cite that Chrisitanity was used as a model?

Why would you think I would not agree that other philosophies and beliefs played a role in the formation of our government as well? I'm not arguing otherwise.

Decisions are grounded in our belief system, which also gives us our ideals and goals that we all strive toward, either actively or passively. We may fall short of the ideal, but the ideals are still there and we make decisions - both practical and philosophical decisions - based on our values, which for religious people are grounded in their faith and spiritual beliefs. These decisions are manifested in the leadership of our families, our management style, our interaction with our coworkers, who we vote for, what causes we work toward and support, and in our government and laws, from our neighborhood home owners' association to the Presidency of the United States - and beyond.

 

[Sunstone]

actually, our gov is very similar to the one set up by Moses during the exodus. If you remember, everyone was coming to Moses with their disputes, and he was unable to handle it all, so he prayed, and God told him how to set up a system for everyone to take care of their problems?

instead of states - there were tribes (12)
instead of state representatives - there were heads of tribes.

See exodus 18:13-26

Moses (president)
Aaron – Joshua (VP)
Council of seventy (a senate)
Elected representatives (congress)

In ancient Israel (and in the US) problems were solved to the greatest possible extent on the local level where they originated:
26 And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses (supreme court), but every small matter they judged themselves (local courts).
(Old Testament | Exodus18:26)



See 2 Samuel 2:4;1 Chr 29:22 Leaders were elected and new laws were approved by the common consent of the people.
4 And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. (Old Testament | 2 Samuel2:4)


22 … And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and anointed him unto the LORD to be the chief governor, and Zadok to be priest. (Old Testament | 1 Chronicles29:22) (our presidents can serve two terms too).

See 2 Chr 10:16 for the rejection of a leader
16 And when all Israel saw that the king would not hearken unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? and we have none inheritance in the son of Jesse: every man to your tents, O Israel: and now, David, see to thine own house. So all Israel went to their tents. (Old Testament | 2 Chronicles10:16)
(when the leader no longer harkened to the voice of the people, he was rejected)

See Ex 19:8 – for the approval of new laws.
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
(Old Testament | Exodus19:8)
People discussed the issue, gave their decision to Moses. In the US, people vote on an issue, elected officials are supposed to uphold their decision.


etc. etc.

So, you're saying -- based on what appears to be mere similarity -- that the Founders based the Constitution on the government set up by Moses? Do you have any words of the Founders to that effect? Anything at all that they said about basing the Constitution on the government of Moses? Or are you basing this claim solely on what you perceive to be a similarity?

 

[tumbleweed41]

And this:

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

Just a little clarification on this.

" I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other. "
Letter To Dr. Benjamin Rush.

To Jefferson, real Christianity did not include the divinity of Jesus.
But he still called himself a Christian.
More correctly, when reading the Jefferson Bible, he considered himself a Christian Deist.

But, that does not diminish the influence his beliefs had on his contributions to the formation of the United States.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Why would you think I would not agree that other philosophies and beliefs played a role in the formation of our government as well? I'm not arguing otherwise.

Decisions are grounded in our belief system, which also gives us our ideals and goals that we all strive toward, either actively or passively. We may fall short of the ideal, but the ideals are still there and we make decisions - both practical and philosophical decisions - based on our values, which for religious people are grounded in their faith and spiritual beliefs. These decisions are manifested in the leadership of our families, our management style, our interaction with our coworkers, who we vote for, what causes we work toward and support, and in our government and laws, from our neighborhood home owners' association to the Presidency of the United States - and beyond.

Decisions aren't grounded in our belief systems. Perception is. Practical thinking gives us our ideals and goals. As to the manifestation... only are morals and beliefs that ingrained in the devout or truly mindful, but having a system of faith doesn't equate to having ingrained morals.
Often people make the assumption that because we label ourselves with a faith we become that faith. In reality that faith becomes us. This is why so many attack religious faiths for the workins of a few when the morals and values are disregarded.
Why base it on Christian morals when there is not documentation of it?

 

[Kathryn]

Decisions aren't grounded in our belief systems.

Speak for yourself. Many would disagree with you on that point. Specifically, the ones who DO make decisions based on their belief system.

And there are a lot of us.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Speak for yourself. Many would disagree with you on that point. Specifically, the ones who DO make decisions based on their belief system.

And there are a lot of us.

Perhaps there are many, but not everyone .

I do want to state: I do have immense respect for those who do make decisions and base them off of their faith.

 

[Kathryn]

Perhaps there are many, but not everyone .

I do want to state: I do have immense respect for those who do make decisions and base them off of their faith.

The beauty of our government as it was envisioned by the Founding Fathers is that you are not forced to adhere to any faith, regardless of their beliefs. However that doesn't negate the impact that their personal belief systems, including their spiritual beliefs, had on their formation of our government.

They were highly principled men.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

The beauty of our government as it was envisioned by the Founding Fathers is that you are not forced to adhere to any faith, regardless of their beliefs. However that doesn't negate the impact that their personal belief systems, including their spiritual beliefs, had on their formation of our government.

They were highly principled men.

They were hightly principled.
I won't say that their faith had no impact on what they decided to draft, but I also won't state that our country was founded on Christian values.

Let me explain: The founding fathers did draft up a basis for us to go forth from, but if we attribute the founding of the US upon anything, we must base the right of freedom and the freedom to be heard. Any documents after the Declaration come subsequet to the founding, imo.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

They were hightly principled.
I won't say that their faith had no impact on what they decided to draft, but I also won't state that our country was founded on Christian values.

Let me explain: The founding fathers did draft up a basis for us to go forth from, but if we attribute the founding of the US upon anything, we must base the right of freedom and the freedom to be heard. Any documents after the Declaration come subsequet to the founding, imo.

I would have to add the Bill of Rights to the foundation as well. The Constitution and all laws following later come from the principles in the Declaration and Bill.

 

[Kathryn]

They were hightly principled.
I won't say that their faith had no impact on what they decided to draft, but I also won't state that our country was founded on Christian values.

Let me explain: The founding fathers did draft up a basis for us to go forth from, but if we attribute the founding of the US upon anything, we must base the right of freedom and the freedom to be heard. Any documents after the Declaration come subsequet to the founding, imo.

But there were documents prior to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution that played a role in the development of our government and many of them included references to God as well.

 

[Me Myself]

The beauty of our government as it was envisioned by the Founding Fathers is that you are not forced to adhere to any faith, regardless of their beliefs. However that doesn't negate the impact that their personal belief systems, including their spiritual beliefs, had on their formation of our government.

They were highly principled men.

Which are the christian values? Maybe I´ve missed some post but haven´t heard one.

I mean, if "dont kill each other" suddenly became a "christian" value, then we´ve been christians since way before God started flirting with Mary.

When I mean "christian values" I am obviously not talking about common "let´s not ***** " morality. I mean precepts that are exclusive to christianity in the constitution for example.

It´s not a semantic thing. I am sure you can understand what I mean. It´s really simple but quite hoonestly I don´t know how to explain if I haven´t already x_x.

 

[F0uad]

I would say no because the ''Foundation'' started when Europeans came to the New-Land called ''America'' now and killed many natives i am pretty sure the NWT doesn't teaches us that. The title clearly says: Is the US founded on "Christian values" ?

 

[Kathryn]

Which are the christian values? Maybe I´ve missed some post but haven´t heard one.

I mean, if "dont kill each other" suddenly became a "christian" value, then we´ve been christians since way before God started flirting with Mary.

When I mean "christian values" I am obviously not talking about common "let´s not ***** " morality. I mean precepts that are exclusive to christianity in the constitution for example.

It´s not a semantic thing. I am sure you can understand what I mean. It´s really simple but quite hoonestly I don´t know how to explain if I haven´t already x_x.

If you want to use the Ten Commandments as an example of Christian values, that would work. I am not naive - I know that other societies and religions also have much the same set of beliefs, and as I've stated before, I respect truth from ANY source.

But as I've also stated several times (and to be honest, I'm really starting to get bored with repeating myself so I'm rapidly losing interest in this thread), the Founding Fathers were not Buddhists or Shintos or Muslims - they were Christians - which also included the unique call to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ found in the New Testament. Some of these teachings are similar to other faiths but some are different.

Christianity overlaps other faiths when it comes to some values, but then there is also the doctrine of Christianity that the vast majority of the Founding Fathers believed and practiced. Though Christian doctrine is not explicitly stated in the DoI or the Constitution (nor should it have been in my opinion), there were other important documents and letters and papers, etc that were formative in the development of our country and system of government that did contain more references to Christianity.

Please understand - I am not saying and have never claimed that our nation is founded SOLELY on Christian principles - but they did play a very large role in the development of the United States.

By the way, let me ask you a question. If I wear a red and black shirt with a bulldog logo on it to a football game in Kilgore, Texas - would you assume I was wearing a Georgia Bulldogs shirt or a Kilgore Bulldogs shirt? Sure I could also wear it to a GA Bulldogs game, but I bought it in Kilgore, from the Kilgore High School football club, and I'd be wearing it to represent the Kilgore Bulldogs - not the Georgia Bulldogs. I might be bemused at the fact that I could also wear it to a Georgia Bulldogs game, or that the logos were similar -hell, I might even feel some affinity to the Georgia Bulldogs - but that wouldn't make me a GA Bulldogs team supporter.

 

[tumbleweed41]

The company I recently worked for was started by a man who is a deeply conservative Christian.

Does this mean this company is based on Christian Values?

No.

A Chief Operating Officer was brought in from Australia to implement a successful business plan used by many businesses in Australia. This COO is a very liberal atheist.

Does this mean the companies growth is based on atheism?

No.

The company is based on a successful business model called Open Book Management. And while these two mens personal values influence how they think, they are not the basis of the business plan.

 

[Kathryn]

I worked for a company founded by a former Methodist minister. He founded and operates his company on a mixture of Christian values and sound business practices. He uses his Christian values to determine whether or not particular business practices are ethical. He sells franchises to people whose ethics line up with his. His franchise owners are not all Christians but many are, and this is evidenced by the fact that his yearly conventions include prayer breakfasts, prayers before meals, and even include fish on Fridays (for those who are Catholic), and these references and respect shown towards faith are greatly appreciated and supported openly and joyfully by his franchise owners, even those who are not Christian. In fact, the prayer breakfasts are very well attended even by those owners of other faiths, or who don't embrace a faith (he lines up some very well known and excellent speakers for these events). He doesn't force anyone to attend the prayer breakfasts, and he also is very respectful toward other religions - several of his franchise owners are of other faiths - Sikh and Muslim for example.

His company logo and statement of values does not include any reference to Christianity, no do his policy manuals or employee handbooks.

However, I assure you that there is no doubt in his mind or in the mind of his thousands of employees that his very successful company is founded on Christian values.

 

[gnomon]

I'm still waiting for evidence that the U.S. is founded as a Christian nation or upon Christian values. It's well established that the U.S. is founded upon English common law, Roman law, Greek politics and concepts from the Iriquois.

We don't need evidence that the founders were merely Christians.

 

[Kathryn]

Practiced faith greatly influences ethical decisions which impact law, government, and policy.

 

[gnomon]

It's easy to say the US is founded on Christian values. But it seems much more difficult to find where an elected representative government divided into three branches and featuring checks and balances, a bill of rights, and a federation of states is derived from the Bible or from Christian traditions.

You are correct.