Is the US founded on "Christian values" ?

[HerDotness]

The Creator is God - of the Supreme Being or whatever else you want to call Him/Her.

A quite imprecise and thus potentially dangerous statement.

A deist would not regard Creator = God. God as understood in the 18th century generally implied the Christian God the Father, one Person of the Trinity.

The deistic conception of the role of the deity-Creator is somewhat more indefinite, removed and different from the Christian view of God's nature and influence upon human existence.

Thus, I think it important to distinguish between the two terms. They are not synonymous no matter that most Christians then and now may refer to God as the Creator of heaven and earth.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." George Washington, Treaty of Tripoli

 

[Sunstone]

James Madison, father of the Constitution, had this (and much else) to say about the matter:

What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not. [Pres. James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]

In my opinion, Madison's political values owed little or nothing to Christianity, and much to the European Enlightenment and his practical experience in politics.

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn, I'm not questioning the faith of many of the founding fathers. What I am trying to say is that the Revolution was the result of that current ages thinking.

I agree totally.

And not "Christian Values".

Here's where we digress. Too many of the Founding Fathers' personal correspondence during that time, as well as other writings, show clearly that Christianity was at the very core of their own moral values, and that they clearly believed that law is built on moral values.

Although Christianity, as the dominant religion of the colonists would help define what a persons individual values may be, it is plain to see that the actual foundation of our country is not based simply on Christian Values.

Don't move the goalposts. I've never asserted that the foundation of our country was based SIMPLY on Christian values. In fact, I've clearly stated in earlier posts that our Founding Fathers and the system they defined were also products of the Age of Reason/Enlightenment. How could they not be? It would be ridiculous to claim otherwise.

The Revolutionary War was not fought over religious freedom, it was fought over taxation and the right to govern ourselves rather than by proxy.

Of course, but many of the early European settlers moved to what would become the United States specifically FOR the right to practice their religion(s) freely and without persecution. This cannot be discounted when considering the history of our nation. I haven't been limiting my comments and opinions to simply the DoI or the Constitution because the founding of our nation isn't limited to those two documents.

State affiliated Christianity is what drove the persecution of minority religions. Our founders strove to ensure that this would not happen in America.

It wasn't just Christianity. Don't forget the struggle against Islam in southern Europe.

You know, I am personally opposed to smoking weed - because of the health issues involved, and because the legal trouble isn't worth it. But as a libertarian, I am not opposed to legalizing weed and the freedom of consenting adults to choose to smoke it. So - I'd legalize it against my own personal beliefs - but I would raise my family and influence others as best I could to consider it wrong to harm your body - and that would have an influence which might even manifest itself in other legislation - for instance healthcare coverage. Do you see my point? I feel like I'm not expressing it well, but I'm too lazy to try to rephrase it right now.

 

[tumbleweed41]

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." George Washington, Treaty of Tripoli

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli was not written by George Washington. As then President, he assigned the treaty to be written by David Humphreys, who in turn had Joel Barlow and Joseph Donaldson negotiate the treaty and it's wording.
By the time it was unanimously ratified by Congress, John Adams was President and he endorsed it with the following statement;
"Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed, and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all other citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfill the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof."


(Yeah, I am an American History Geek )

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli was not written by George Washington. As then President, he assigned the treaty to be written by David Humphreys, who in turn had Joel Barlow and Joseph Donaldson negotiate the treaty and it's wording.
By the time it was unanimously ratified by Congress, John Adams was President and he endorsed it with the following statement;
"Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed, and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all other citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfill the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof."


(Yeah, I am an American History Geek )

I stand corrected, haha. But it's a very clear statement.

 

[fantome profane]

Here's where we digress. Too many of the Founding Fathers' personal correspondence during that time, as well as other writings, show clearly that Christianity was at the very core of their own moral values, and that they clearly believed that law is built on moral values.

But Christianity was the dominate force in Europe for centuries before the founding of the US. So why did it not bring about democracies in Europe long before then? What changed? Something had to be different.

I am not questioning that Christianity and Christian values had a major impact. But it can't be as simple as that.

 

[Kathryn]

But Christianity was the dominate force in Europe for centuries before the founding of the US. So why did it not bring about democracies in Europe long before then? What changed? Something had to be different.

I am not questioning that Christianity and Christian values had a major impact. But it can't be as simple as that.

Is anyone saying it is? Certainly not me. I freely admit - no, I REJOICE - that the Age of Reason played such a prominent role in the development of our unique country so full of new promise.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Is anyone saying it is? Certainly not me. I freely admit - no, I REJOICE - that the Age of Reason played such a prominent role in the development of our unique country so full of new promise.

Is it Reason or Christianity that played the role?

 

[Kathryn]

Is it Reason or Christianity that played the role?

Both.

 

[Sunstone]

It's easy to say the US is founded on Christian values. But it seems much more difficult to find where an elected representative government divided into three branches and featuring checks and balances, a bill of rights, and a federation of states is derived from the Bible or from Christian traditions.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Both.

Can you point out something in our founding that is directly related to Christianity that is not based on anyother mode of faith or philosophy?

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

We can inferrence that it was based on morals or principles, but does that mean it was? Our founding fathers were intelligent men, could they not have based it on common sense and philosophy?

 

[idea]

...Why do you think US is founded on christian values? ...

there are two sides to Christianity - some who use it to enslave, others to set free... Many people came to the US for religious freedom - they wanted to be ruled by God, their own version of God, rather than to be ruled by a man, or a church they did not adhere to...

They re-wrote the British anthem of "God save the King" to "God is our King"... I think the idea of freedom was coined by those who wanted to be ruled by God rather than man.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

there are two sides to Christianity - some who use it to enslave, others to set free... Many people came to the US for religious freedom - they wanted to be ruled by God, their own version of God, rather than to be ruled by a man, or a church they did not adhere to...

They re-wrote the British anthem of "God save the King" to "God is our King"... I think the idea of freedom was coined by those who wanted to be ruled by God rather than man.

There were many groups from Europe settling in America at the time, you only post the reason for a few.

 

[idea]

It's easy to say the US is founded on Christian values. But it seems much more difficult to find where an elected representative government divided into three branches and featuring checks and balances, a bill of rights, and a federation of states is derived from the Bible or from Christian traditions.

actually, our gov is very similar to the one set up by Moses during the exodus. If you remember, everyone was coming to Moses with their disputes, and he was unable to handle it all, so he prayed, and God told him how to set up a system for everyone to take care of their problems?

instead of states - there were tribes (12)
instead of state representatives - there were heads of tribes.

See exodus 18:13-26

Moses (president)
Aaron – Joshua (VP)
Council of seventy (a senate)
Elected representatives (congress)

In ancient Israel (and in the US) problems were solved to the greatest possible extent on the local level where they originated:
26 And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses (supreme court), but every small matter they judged themselves (local courts).
(Old Testament | Exodus18:26)



See 2 Samuel 2:4;1 Chr 29:22 Leaders were elected and new laws were approved by the common consent of the people.
4 And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. (Old Testament | 2 Samuel2:4)


22 … And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and anointed him unto the LORD to be the chief governor, and Zadok to be priest. (Old Testament | 1 Chronicles29:22) (our presidents can serve two terms too).

See 2 Chr 10:16 for the rejection of a leader
16 And when all Israel saw that the king would not hearken unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? and we have none inheritance in the son of Jesse: every man to your tents, O Israel: and now, David, see to thine own house. So all Israel went to their tents. (Old Testament | 2 Chronicles10:16)
(when the leader no longer harkened to the voice of the people, he was rejected)

See Ex 19:8 – for the approval of new laws.
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
(Old Testament | Exodus 19:8)
People discussed the issue, gave their decision to Moses. In the US, people vote on an issue, elected officials are supposed to uphold their decision.


etc. etc.

 

[idea]

There were many groups from Europe settling in America at the time, you only post the reason for a few.

more than just a "few" came in search of religious freedom.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Are you telling me that our government wasn't influenced by the Roman Republican system? How do you know it didn't come from the early Germanic tribes who practiced a very similar form of Democracy?

 

[idea]

Are you telling me that our government wasn't influenced by the Roman Republican system? How do you know it didn't come from the early Germanic tribes who practiced a very similar form of Democracy?

it was influenced by a lot of things, one of which, was Biblical teachings.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

more than just a "few" came in search of religious freedom.

Some also came for money, land, escaping the law, they were forced to, they themselves were slaves, etc.. If you look at the total of the groups who came to America before it was its own country, only a few came for that freedom.