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Is the word "god" meaningful?

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
No problem.

I usually don't like Hebrew4Christians, but they have a few good things to say here, though they don't seem to like right clicking.

The Hebrew Names for God - El

Thanks!

Let's start simple with the first link.

El might mean "god" (as in pagan or false gods) or it could mean "God" (like the god of Israel). So you claim to have not only defined "God" clearly enough for everybody, but even enough to determine that there is only one god? That's a bold assertion.

I can't wait to hear the sound reasoning and evidence behind it that isn't dependent upon appeal to authority. You did say it was a rational definition that can stand on its own merit, right? Not just a cultural belief or way of describing mystical insight?

Also, this meaning (pagan or false gods) indicates that not all other deities were false, but only it was inappropriate for the people of Israel to worship them. Does this mean you believe that other Pagan deities also exist? I guess that would be consistent with the definition.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
Thanks!

Let's start simple with the first link.

El might mean "god" (as in pagan or false gods) or it could mean "God" (like the god of Israel). So you claim to have not only defined "God" clearly enough for everybody, but even enough to determine that there is only one god? That's a bold assertion.

I can't wait to hear the sound reasoning and evidence behind it that isn't dependent upon appeal to authority. You did say it was a rational definition that can stand on its own merit, right? Not just a cultural belief or way of describing mystical insight?

Also, this meaning (pagan or false gods) indicates that not all other deities were false, but only it was inappropriate for the people of Israel to worship them. Does this mean you believe that other Pagan deities also exist? I guess that would be consistent with the definition.

Yes, I believe other pagan deities do in fact exist. I believe that the Hebrew Bible is explicitly clear that "Angels" are called gods, this distinction became lost at some point in the Greek where "Angel" became known as a class of being in itself, as we see with Psalm 8:5 where "Elohim" is translated as "Angel". The original Hebrew beliefs, as many scholars believe, was closer to Henotheism, and only later seemed to drift towards a strict Monotheism in which the existence of other gods was completely dismissed. Nonetheless, even in Josephus's time there is still some reference to "the gods", as well as in the Jewish Sibylline oracles. So no, I am not claiming there's only one god, I will claim there's only one "Elohei Ha-Elohim", only one god of the gods, who is called "The most high god" (Or "Ascending/prevailing god"), he was called "prevailing/most high god" because he's the top god, the "king of the gods". When the Israelites are commanded to have "no god before" Him, it doesn't mean "You shall not believe in the existence of other gods", it means "You shall not place these existent beings who do in fact exist in higher regard and place than the most high god who is the god of the gods/king of the gods".

As for an appeal to authority, with what limited knowledge we have on the subject, all one can do is appeal to an authority about the meaning of a word if the textual evidence, such as its use in Psalms as "power of your hand" and referring to Angels/Divine beings doesn't suffice.

Evidence can be seen with the Septuagint vs. Masoretic issue of Deuteronomy 32:8, in which it was clearly identified that the nations of man each had their own "son of god" (a god) as their watcher, and that Israel was chosen for THE god Himself. Though some may argue the Masoretic is original, that in itself is a whole can of worms.

So I'd have to ask if this is not sufficient for "Sound reasoning apart from appeal to authority" what you would consider to be such from the text itself in which divine beings are indeed referred to as "gods".



We can also see the fact that the "Most high god" is referred to with the article to differentiate him from other gods. Why would that be? Why would he need the article?

We also see that the word "El" is translated as "power", here is some appeal to Wikipedia's authority on the issue:

Theophory in the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

names referring to El, a word meaning might, power and (a) god in general, and hence in Judaism, God and among the Canaanites the name of the god who was the father of Baal.

What we can see is that the name "El" in the Canaanite Pantheon meant "The big daddy god", they named him "god" as a title like in Hebrew it would be "Elohei Ha-Elohim" or "god of the gods", or simply "god", like "Boss", to mean "boss of the bosses". In this sense, other "gods" are still "gods' but they're "false" gods compared to THE god. So this is why there is an articulation of THE god, "The most high god" in the Hebrew belief.

Now when it comes to such Appeal to Authority, we can at least see that this is a general scholarly view on the matter, and to its credit, hardly just from those grounded in a Theological position. Rather it seems its those who HAVE a theological stake who seem to be most against this historical idea and prefer the modern Revisionist approach. Granted, different authorities will have different opinions on particularly controversial language issues (especially where Theological doctrines are at stake), but on this issue this is a pretty much universal view. In this case, it's often those who have an Orthodox-Christian Theological agenda who are challenging the majority scholarly view on the meaning of "El", so keep that in mind if you challenge this.

So at what point will you accept the idea that the word "god" did in fact have a specific being and concept in mind and wasn't some mystical up in the air idea? What kind of evidence would you need other than specific references to angels as gods?
 
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chinu

chinu
A common argument of many atheists is that the word "god" is unintelligible, incoherent, inconsistent, etc, and therefore, they have no idea what you are talking about when you use it, and thus, they obviously cannot believe in something which hasn't even been defined.

As an atheist, I think that argument stinks to high heaven.

So, what say you? Is the word "god" meaningless and undefined?
:)
Is it fair to say that you have no concept of what someone is talking about when they use that word? What is the defense of this argument?
When talking about God, one is talking about him/herself. :)
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
So I'd have to ask if this is not sufficient for "Sound reasoning apart from appeal to authority" what you would consider to be such from the text itself in which divine beings are indeed referred to as "gods".

We can also see the fact that the "Most high god" is referred to with the article to differentiate him from other gods. Why would that be? Why would he need the article?

What we can see is that the name "El" in the Canaanite Pantheon meant "The big daddy god", they named him "god" as a title like in Hebrew it would be "Elohei Ha-Elohim" or "god of the gods", or simply "god", like "Boss", to mean "boss of the bosses". In this sense, other "gods" are still "gods' but they're "false" gods compared to THE god. So this is why there is an articulation of THE god, "The most high god" in the Hebrew belief.

Interesting. I suspected as much about your beliefs from past posts. I noticed that "angel" is yet a third meaning for El after "Pagan or false gods". So the definition for your god specifically is "the most high god" and "power"? This still leaves it ambiguous as to what exactly a "god" is. You even use the word "god" in your definition for God. Plus, "power" has a much more technical and useful definition in the scientific age. How can it be determined what would be indentified in experience as a greater or lesser "god"?

Now when it comes to such Appeal to Authority, we can at least see that this is a general scholarly view on the matter, and to its credit, hardly just from those grounded in a Theological position. Rather it seems its those who HAVE a theological stake who seem to be most against this historical idea and prefer the modern Revisionist approach. Granted, different authorities will have different opinions on particularly controversial language issues (especially where Theological doctrines are at stake), but on this issue this is a pretty much universal view. In this case, it's often those who have an Orthodox-Christian Theological agenda who are challenging the majority scholarly view on the meaning of "El", so keep that in mind if you challenge this.

So at what point will you accept the idea that the word "god" did in fact have a specific being and concept in mind and wasn't some mystical up in the air idea? What kind of evidence would you need other than specific references to angels as gods?

An appeal to authority may be warranted under certain circumstances, but usually in conjunction with other criteria such as empirical evidence or rational deduction. An isolated appeal isn't very convincing, especially when it's meant to support a fantastical claim. It does convinces me that the term "God" exists and that it holds cultural significance for some people, but not that it refers to an actual falsifiable hypothesis about reality.

This is what I meant by rational-scientific definition. I believe that you understand "God" as a meaningful term. I can understand it as a cultural belief, aesthetic expression, a metaphor for that which transcends all comprehension, and/or as an indirect way of describing mystical insight. It just doesn't seem to make any sense yet as a hypothesis that can be tested. That's all.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Meanings change ... evolve. To talk about what a word likely meant at one time and in one cultural setting only begins the discussion of what it comes to mean in another.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
It does convinces me that the term "God" exists and that it holds cultural significance for some people, but not that it refers to an actual falsifiable hypothesis about reality.

This is what I meant by rational-scientific definition. I believe that you understand "God" as a meaningful term. I can understand it as a cultural belief, aesthetic expression, a metaphor for that which transcends all comprehension, and/or as an indirect way of describing mystical insight. It just doesn't seem to make any sense yet as a hypothesis that can be tested. That's all.

To be fair though, you said scientific or rational, not rational-scientific.
God's definition does not need to be a falsifiable hypothesis to be a rational definition.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
To be fair though, you said scientific or rational, not rational-scientific.
God's definition does not need to be a falsifiable hypothesis to be a rational definition.

Thanks for pointing out my faulty wording. I'll be more careful to discern the two. To also be fair, they do often go together or, at least, don't contradict one another. Also, I don't know of a consistent rational definition.

I do think that there can be some positive, pragmatic reasons for certain "god-beliefs" themselves even if the content of the belief is internally vague and ambiguous. Perhaps some god-beliefs may be rational under certain social or psychological circumstances. I might also add that even "reason" is increasingly unreliable the more abstract and separated from empirical evidence and other means of justification it becomes.

Either way, my concern is the mistake of treating "god" as if it were a hypothesis. This seems to cause the most distress either trying to prove or disprove it when the discussion was based on false premises all along. It doesn't seem like any mainstream notions of "god" can claim a monopoly on the term due to this limitation in definition. My point is that any person or religion claiming to possess not only a, but the only definition as it pertains to objective reality is pulling it out of a magic hat and can be demonstrated to not contain genuine authority over the meaning of the term.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Of course the word "god" means something, but without further qualifiers it's impossible to have a conversation about it. Imagine a thread - "do you want to keep the animal I am thinking about as a pet? Yes or no". I can't even begin to answer unless I know whether the OP is thinking about a labradoodle or a hippopotamus.

So it is with God. When someone starts a conversation about some god form or other, they usually assume the reader knows exactly what they are talking about and resist pressure to provide additional information, without which a meaningful conversation is impossible.

In most cases, I make certain assumptions about what kind of god a person is holding in their mind in order to participate in the conversation about it with them. I hold no god concepts in my own mind, being a non-theist, so there is no "default" definition. I must use the definition of whoever I am talking to, and most of the time they refuse to give it.

Even simple distinctions: is it corporeal or not? Is it male, female or genderless? Where does it live? Is it wrathful or benevolent? Does it take a personal interest in our lives? Does it influence events? Etc. how can a god concept be discussed unless we know all this and more?

When I say in threads that I am certain "god does not exist", I am actually saying I am certain the god concept I assume is held in the asker's mind does not exist. I only say such things to people who have demonstrated a clear tendency toward fundamentalism, irrationality and magical thinking, which indicate a lack of clear perception. IF there is anything to perceive, I am certain such people are not perceiving it.

I am talking about the word "god" in general, and not as a specific name.

Is the word "god" meaningful as a general word for a category of things, like the word "animal" is a general word for the category.

Your criticism (and this goes for all the other people who presented this) seems to think that the word "god" is simply a placeholder for the word "Zeus" or "Allah" or "Krishna". Is the word "animal" only a word that must be used synonomously with "dog" or "lion" or "kangaroo"? The word "god" like the word "animal" is a name for the category of things, not just specific examples of them.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Is the word "god" meaningful as a general word for a category of things, like the word "animal" is a general word for the category.

No, because "animal" is a well-defined and structured categorization with (overall) clear and consistent rules defining what an animal is.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
What constitutes "genuine authority over the meaning of the term"?

That's my point. It can't be established cross-culturally as either a falsifiable hypothesis or a universally justifiable proposition. This means that nobody can claim authority over the precise meanings of "God" nor dictate to others about its concrete reality.

What we don't understand, we can make mean anything for any agenda and then claim it as an unquestionable truth.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
No, because "animal" is a well-defined and structured categorization with (overall) clear and consistent rules defining what an animal is.

So, the word "god" has no meaning except when used as synonomous with the name of an actual god?

(If so, I'll call that bluff, since obviously, the word "god" does have a general meaning.)
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I am talking about the word "god" in general, and not as a specific name.

Is the word "god" meaningful as a general word for a category of things, like the word "animal" is a general word for the category.

Your criticism (and this goes for all the other people who presented this) seems to think that the word "god" is simply a placeholder for the word "Zeus" or "Allah" or "Krishna". Is the word "animal" only a word that must be used synonomously with "dog" or "lion" or "kangaroo"? The word "god" like the word "animal" is a name for the category of things, not just specific examples of them.

Sure, the word god connotes a category to me rather than a specific idea, very much like the word animal. However, it certainly seems as though theists who initiate conversations about "god" are not thinking of a category, as I am. They have a specific deity in mind, and I can't discuss it unless they tell me whether they're thinking of Zeus, Diana or Kokopelli.

Among monotheists, there seems to be a lot of resistance to providing any attributes or qualifiers. So, they want to talk about a specific god concept but won't tell me what it is. As I says, the word animal has meaning, but how can we have a conversation of any kind about "THE animal" without further information?
 
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