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Is the word "god" meaningful?

Shermana

Heretic
If the word "god" is for a category of things, rather than a word designating a specific god, then that highly compromises their claim to not understand what the word "god" means.

You got it.

And that "category of things" is "Divine beings/angels/intelligent active powers with supernatural abilities".

Hence, why the Biblical god has the articulation of THE god, "the god of the gods".

The Hebrew and Canaanite similarly use the word "El" to describe THE god while still accepting the existence of other gods. In a way, it's like saying "The president" to refer to the POTUS while still acknowledging presidents of companies and organizations.

Thus, the notion that the word "god" cannot be understood is basically a rejection of proven Historical textual writings and Linguistics.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
At the risk of seriously derailing the conversation: in what way(s) do you see "Uncaused Cause" as incoherent, irrational, or both?

Let me think of a summary of my views before responding so I don't go off on a big tangent.

I will start by saying that human reason becomes increasingly unreliable the more it abstracts itself from the context of natural experience and social reality. This is why it is so important to coordinate reason with empirical evidence and other warrants.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Before I get into details, I want you to answer some questions:

1. Do you believe that the word "god" is meaningless as a category designator? In other words, is the word "god" only useful to denote a specific god, e.g. a synonym for Zeus, Apollo, or Thor?
No, I don't, but I do think the category "god" is defined in terms of particular gods. I don't see any set of characteristics that includes all gods and excludes all non-gods.

As an analogy, I see the category "gods" a lot like the category "employees of Acme Manufacturing, Inc." It's probably a lost cause trying to come up with a definition for "employees of Acme" that's going to be based on things like height, hair colour, number of fingers (since it includes people like Old Jim who lost a hand in one of the machines on the line back in the 60s), job title, place of residence (Acme is worldwide, after all), etc. Pretty much the only common characteristic for the members of the category "employees of Acme" is going to be that they all work at Acme Manufacturing, Inc., so pretty much the only way to determine who's in the category or not would be to look at the company directory or the payroll files.

I think the category "gods" is similar: there's no real common thread to gods that separates them from non-gods. How is a Pagan god more "godly" than a Christian angel? It isn't, as far as I can tell. IMO, the only way to figure out what's in the category "gods" is to generate a list of gods.

2. Is the word "god" as meaningless to you as the word "zargol"? If not, then I think that is a major issue for your claim to not understand what the word "god" means.
I think I have a personal definition for "god", kinda... or at least a few rough criteria, though if push came to shove, I'd probably have to admit that my approach to gods is like the old line about pornography ("I know it when I see it"). I have some opinions about what particular things would be gods (e.g. Thor, Zeus, angels) and what ones wouldn't be (e.g. me, toasters, the Sun), but I'm not sure I could come up with good reasons for how I separate things into the categories of "gods" and "not gods".

And in any case, I recognize that my opinions about what is and isn't a god aren't universally shared... or even shared by anyone other than me, possibly.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Let me repeat my question but rephrase it:

What kind of empirical evidence and rational deduction are you looking for other than specific textual examples where the word "god" is used to describe an actual being. It seems as if you want to deny even the textual examples for "rational deduction", so is there ANYTHING you would accept or are you looking to find a way to dismiss practically anything that can be used to solidify the concept? What you mean by "Rational-scientific" deduction, when it comes to Semantic terms, means "What I want to believe regardless of the available textual evidence". That's not rational OR scientific. It's more akin to Theological presumption. How would you even propose to put a Semantic/linguistic issue to a falsifiable hypothesis in the first place when you are already not accepting the available textual evidence or the scholars who do the interpreting of this language?

I'm afraid you misunderstand my argument. I can't even look for empirical evidence or other reasons yet because the statement "God exists" doesn't even qualify as a falsifiable hypothesis or a universally justifiable proposition. The textual evidence proves that there's a term and associated belief with cultural and historical significance, but it cannot demonstrate that the term refers to an actual external entity that can be tested somehow.



I think the idea of a "Metaphor that transcends all comprehension" is mystical fluff and that the ancients had specific concepts in mind, and the available evidence suggests this.

As for the meaning of the word "power", it doesn't matter what age we're in, the meaning of such is like "A major power" or "he's one of the powers of the company", like an entity, a "powerful entity". Semantic shifts shouldn't be employed when we're examining what the generally understood meaning of a term is, the term doesn't change its meaning in the "Scientific age". If I said the USA is a great power, it doesn't mean it's a great electricity 240 years after 1776.

That's fine. Take it or leave it. I was just offering some possible alternate understandings of "god" since it fails as an actual hypothesis about something.

I can understand "power" in a number of ways and terms do change or adopt meaning over time. I just don't get the meaning here. So your God is "the most high and powerful god"? It uses "god" in the definition? What is a "god" then?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
This is reasonable to me.

What if the converstaion is simply "Do you believe that gods exist?" I have seen the argument that the word is meaningless unless a specific description is given used against that as well. It is also used as an explanation for why the atheist can't possibly have the belief that gods don't exist since they "don't even know what the word god means".

Still depends which gods, and what "exists" means. And "believe", for that matter. I'm a language skeptic, like a proper philosophical taoist. This morning I watched a video of Germans trying to say "squirrel" and by the end of it the word had lost all meaning to me.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Before I get into details, I want you to answer some questions:

1. Do you believe that the word "god" is meaningless as a category designator? In other words, is the word "god" only useful to denote a specific god, e.g. a synonym for Zeus, Apollo, or Thor?

2. Is the word "god" as meaningless to you as the word "zargol"? If not, then I think that is a major issue for your claim to not understand what the word "god" means.

Actually, now that you've said it, I think I have a clearer picture in my head of a zargol than God.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
At the risk of seriously derailing the conversation: in what way(s) do you see "Uncaused Cause" as incoherent, irrational, or both?
Let me think of a summary of my views before responding so I don't go off on a big tangent.

I will start by saying that human reason becomes increasingly unreliable the more it abstracts itself from the context of natural experience and social reality. This is why it is so important to coordinate reason with empirical evidence and other warrants.
Agreed, but how is this responsive?
 

Shermana

Heretic
I'm afraid you misunderstand my argument. I can't even look for empirical evidence or other reasons yet because the statement "God exists" doesn't even qualify as a falsifiable hypothesis or a universally justifiable proposition. The textual evidence proves that there's a term and associated belief with cultural and historical significance, but it cannot demonstrate that the term refers to an actual external entity that can be tested somehow.





That's fine. Take it or leave it. I was just offering some possible alternate understandings of "god" since it fails as an actual hypothesis about something.

I can understand "power" in a number of ways and terms do change or adopt meaning over time. I just don't get the meaning here. So your God is "the most high and powerful god"? It uses "god" in the definition? What is a "god" then?

We're talking about the meaning of the word "god" as it's been employed for thousands of years, a completely different subject from whether this depicted being has existence. We have hundreds of threads about the existence of gods elsewhere, many of which I've contributed to. Usually the problem is when the question is asked for what exactly the criteria for establishing what kind of a falsifiable concept would be and what would constitute such evidence.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
We're talking about the meaning of the word "god" as it's been employed for thousands of years, a completely different subject from whether this depicted being has existence. We have hundreds of threads about the existence of gods elsewhere, many of which I've contributed to. Usually the problem is when the question is asked for what exactly the criteria for establishing what kind of a falsifiable concept would be and what would constitute such evidence.

Actually, the word god is from proto-germanic / old English, Dutch, Norse language groups and was never used for foreign gods. It was originally gender neutral, and shifted to masculine when christianity was brought to Europe.

So it probably originally referred to the likes of Loki and Thor, not the "supreme" deity of the Jews, Christians and / or muslims. Early germanic / pagan / old English religions were polytheistic, so god would have been a category of beings, not a single being.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Actually, the word god is from proto-germanic / old English, Dutch, Norse language groups and was never used for foreign gods. It was originally gender neutral, and shifted to masculine when christianity was brought to Europe.

So it probably originally referred to the likes of Loki and Thor, not the "supreme" deity of the Jews, Christians and / or muslims. Early germanic / pagan / old English religions were polytheistic, so god would have been a category of beings, not a single being.

Well then we're talking about different subjects, but I don't understand your immediate contradiction when you say it didn't refer to "foreign gods" but it did refer to Loki and Thor, so perhaps you mean to say that it referred to "local gods" that we'd consider "foreign"? If so, then it's the exact same thing as the word "El" I'm referring to, and "El" and "god" have roughly similar meanings, with the exception that the word "El" was also used for THE god as well as lesser gods.

Now with that said, I don't think you completely understand what I'm talking about, since I implied that "god" can mean different beings and not JUST a single being. Unless you mean to say that "god" in the singular means multiple beings, which I've never heard before.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Well then we're talking about different subjects, but I don't understand your immediate contradiction when you say it didn't refer to "foreign gods" but it did refer to Loki and Thor, so perhaps you mean to say that it referred to "local gods" that we'd consider "foreign"? If so, then it's the exact same thing as the word "El" I'm referring to, and "El" and "god" have roughly similar meanings, with the exception that the word "El" was also used for THE god as well as lesser gods.

Now with that said, I don't think you completely understand what I'm talking about, since I implied that "god" can mean different beings and not JUST a single being. Unless you mean to say that "god" in the singular means multiple beings, which I've never heard before.

I understand what you're saying, I just thought it would be useful to clarify that it isn't the word "god" you are talking about, but the word "el". The word "god" did not originally refer to the Christian deity, and was not masculine. Nor did it refer to the boss of all the gods, or anything else you're talking about.

I only brought it up because you seemed to be claiming that the word god originated with your belief system, giving your definition extra weight because of thousands of years of tradition, or some such thing. That just isn't correct.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
I understand what you're saying, I just thought it would be useful to clarify that it isn't the word "god" you are talking about, but the word "el". The word "god" did not originally refer to the Christian deity, and was not masculine. Nor did it refer to the boss of all the gods, or anything else you're talking about.

I only brought it up because you seemed to be claiming that the word god originated with your belief system, giving your definition extra weight because of thousands of years of tradition, or some such thing. That just isn't correct.

It actually very well may have a direct parallel:

God (word) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The translation for the word deus of the Latin bible was influenced by the then current usage by the tribes for their highest deity, namely Wodan by Angles, Saxons and Franks of north-central and western Europe and Godan by the Lombards of south-central Europe around Rome. There are many instances of chants where the name Godan and Wodan are contracted to God and Wod in chants and hunting songs. One ritual of Wodan worshippers during The Winter-Nights feast has the people answer "Wod, Wod, Wod!" during the ceremonial ritual.[4][5] Another instance is the wild hunt (a.k.a. Wodan's wild hunt) where the hunters song includes "Wod, Wod, Wod!".
 

Alceste

Vagabond

Shermana

Heretic
Odin / Wodan was not the Jewish god. He rode around on an eight legged horse, had a raven and a spear, and was associated with shamanism and poetry. He was also a relative late-comer to the Norse pantheon, probably. Crucially, he did not create the world and did not have any particular interest in human affairs.

Odin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The direct parallel is that they used the word "God" as a contracted form from Godan, so that "God" was used to refer to their idea of the Chief of the gods. That's not the issue we're debating here. We're talking about whether the word "god" has a direct meaning or if its some mystical fluff that no one can identify. And it appears that the concept of the word "El" has a direct, if not barely different parellel with the Germanic word "god". The difference in who their "chief god" was and his characteristics has no bearing on this debate, but the fact that they both used the word "El" and "god" to refer to their highest deity independently is quite interesting. So It doesn't matter if he's the exact same character as the Judeo Christian god. It's that they had basically the same idea.

Can you please show a link that says that Godan was a late-comer to the Germanic tribes and who preceded him in their Pantheon as the highest of the gods? Because it seems that Wodan/Godan goes back as far as our earliest known records and indications of the Germanic tribes.

W

Do you consider the 3rd century A.D. to be relatively a late comer? If so, who was before him? We barely know anything about the Germanic tribes or their language for that matter, before then. I'd love to see who the "Norse Pantheon" was before that time.

Wuodan was the chief god of the Alamanni, his name appears in the runic inscription on the Nordendorf fibula.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
The direct parallel is that they used the word "God" as a contracted form from Godan, so that "God" was used to refer to their idea of the Chief of the gods. That's not the issue we're debating here. We're talking about whether the word "god" has a direct meaning or if its some mystical fluff that no one can identify. And it appears that the concept of the word "El" has a direct, if not barely different parellel with the Germanic word "god". The difference in who their "chief god" was and his characteristics has no bearing on this debate, but the fact that they both used the word "El" and "god" to refer to their highest deity independently is quite interesting. So It doesn't matter if he's the exact same character as the Judeo Christian god. It's that they had basically the same idea.

Can you please show a link that says that Godan was a late-comer to the Germanic tribes and who preceded him in their Pantheon as the highest of the gods? Because it seems that Wodan/Godan goes back as far as our earliest known records and indications of the Germanic tribes.

W

Do you consider the 3rd century A.D. to be relatively a late comer? If so, who was before him? We barely know anything about the Germanic tribes or their language for that matter, before then. I'd love to see who the "Norse Pantheon" was before that time.

So El also had a crow and an eight legged horse, is associated with shamanism and poetry, did not create the world and does not take an interest in human affairs?


I think this tangent is well and truly finished. The point is that the origin of the word god is proto-germanic and did not originally refer to the deities of your belief system.
 

Shermana

Heretic
So El also had a crow and an eight legged horse, is associated with shamanism and poetry, did not create the world and does not take an interest in human affairs?


I think this tangent is well and truly finished. The point is that the origin of the word god is proto-germanic and did not originally refer to the deities of your belief system.

Do you not seriously understand the point? I didn't say the word "god" referred to the exact same being/character/representation as the Israelite god. I said that the word "god" as we know it referred to both the "god of the gods" as well as lesser gods, and in fact had a meaning to describe a specific type of being, as well as a being in itself, though not the specifically same being. It's like the word "king". It can mean "The ruler of the region" as well as "a lesser noble who rules a province of that region". Doesn't mean that "king" will refer to the same exact person who sits on a throne anywhere. This is all about how it relates to the OP.

The proto-Germanic concept of "god" thus likely came from their title for the Chief god, just like how "El" came from their title of the chief god. There's barely if any real difference, regardless of their back stories.

And to take it a step further, the word "Deus" (From which stems Zeus) comes from "The Sky Father", which was the name for the Highest god in such pantheons yet also came to be used for lesser "Deuses". What a remarkable coincidence!

I repeat, it doesn't matter if they share the same characteristics. It's about the concept. Chief of the gods. Doesn't matter if one has a magic reindeer or if another floats in a magic bubble with Goku from Dragonballz.

And actually, Odin/Godan DID create the world and the universe in the Germanic pantheon, though he was not the first god or being, unlike the traditional account of the Israelite god, he made it from the carcass of his Father Ymir who he killed. But he's still the god of the gods. It's actually remarkably similar to the Gnostic story in a way, as well as the Greek myths. And he very well DOES take an interest in human affairs. In fact, he is so concerned with their heroic bravery in combat, that he keeps Valhalla as an exclusive social club only for warriors who are deserving of entry, and routinely intervenes in the world as he sees fit and to answer to those who call upon him in rituals and sacrifices. For a god who didn't care about the human world, the Germans sure seemed to devote a lot of rituals to him trying to earn his favor.

The main point however, is that the word "god" has an essentially similar concept with "El". It can be used for other deities as WELL as was used for the chief of the gods. And this is in relation to the OP, which is a question of whether the concept of "god" has meaning and has had meaning.

So again, and I hope I don't have to repeat this again, it doesn't matter whether Godan was the same exact concept as the Jewish god or the Canaanite god in terms of characteristics. I thought I made this clear, but the question of the OP is whether the word "god" has a meaningful concept or whether it's mystical fluff.

And it DOES have a specific meaningful concept, and that concept is roughly similar, if not exactly similar, to the meaning and concept of "El", which means both "The chief god" and "a lesser god", but still pertaining to a meaning of a class of being which is..."a god". Therefore, the mystical fluff are these new agey revisionist concepts of what "God" means outside of its nearly universal traditional usage. In fact, I don't think ANY place on Earth has ever had a concept of "god" that didn't involve actual heavenly beings with supernatural powers.

So it doesn't matter if one was born from a hermophraditic super primordial being and BECAME the king of the gods who made the universe using the corpse of his slain Father, or one who always existed as the Chief of the gods (assuming this was the original Israelite concept), the point is the same: They are both the chief gods, and the use of the word "El" and "god" is a derivative of the concept of the fact that they are both THE god, and in that the word can be used for "lesser gods".

So to summarize again, it doesn't matter if they are the same exact characters. What matters is that they are beings, they have CERTAIN similar qualities in that...they are beings, they are the chief deities of their systems, and their title is used to refer to them as well as lesser beings. Thus, the concept of "god" in English is almost exactly the same as the concept in Israelite and Canaanite beliefs, regardless of their backstories and depictions. It is thus ridiculous to say that the meaning of "god" has no meaning or can't be understood. It's a very simple concept: Heavenly beings with supernatural powers. Regardless of who they are.

Do you need further clarification ?
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I am talking about the word "god" in general, and not as a specific name.

Is the word "god" meaningful as a general word for a category of things, like the word "animal" is a general word for the category.

Your criticism (and this goes for all the other people who presented this) seems to think that the word "god" is simply a placeholder for the word "Zeus" or "Allah" or "Krishna". Is the word "animal" only a word that must be used synonomously with "dog" or "lion" or "kangaroo"? The word "god" like the word "animal" is a name for the category of things, not just specific examples of them.
Preconceptual or preprotoconceptual in the generic sense. The Un-named with The Way. Specific gods are conceptual manifestations, and are named, so hence, are not preprotoconceptual, or Un-named.

Compare to Two Truths Doctrine and "emptiness," being "empty of concrete and inherent characteristics," i.e, preprotoconceptual and generic.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Agreed, but how is this responsive?

Sorry. Let me start again.

So even if the argument makes sense that there was a "first cause" to the universe, this doesn't define or establish it as the existence of a personal "God" in any way. Also, it can't be determined why there can only be one first cause rather than many.

Let me address Aquinas' argument against the view of an infinite series of cause for my other point. He failed to distinguish between two statements.

1) "A" did not exist
2) "A" is not uncaused

To say that the series is infinite implies 2, but it does not imply 1.

For example: Captain Spaulding claimed, "I am the greatest explorer who ever lived," and then someone else replies, "No, you're not." The second person doesn't deny the existence of the Capt. He just denies the exalted attribute.

Similarly, the believer in the infinite series is not "taking A away". We only take away the privileged status of A, its "first causiness". So I would just deny that A or any other member of the series is actually the first.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Sorry. Let me start again.

So even if the argument makes sense that there was a "first cause" to the universe, this doesn't define or establish it as the existence of a personal "God" in any way. Also, it can't be determined why there can only be one first cause rather than many.
I've made that point myself more than once. Therefore?
 
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