Is there a God?

[Warren Clark]

have you read my initial post after it was edited?

Yes I did...

To me, it is just logical that there is a higher being that rules over everything. That being to me is God. Someone else might call it nature, or something else. But to me it really is God as we imagine. A limitless being that knows all, rules all, creates all, etc...
To me, it is impossible for a star to explode, out of no where, for no apparent reason, and create a solar system over millions of years, as well as the start of life all deriving from that one explosion. If the earth was a few thousand miles closer to the sun, we would not be able to live. If the earth was a few thousand miles further from the sun, we wouldn't be able to live either. Do you honestly believe that this precise distance we live in is all just luck that derived from the Big Bang? The complexity and preciseness of the solar system makes it impossible for a random occurance, in a presumably empty space to be its originator.

Also, think about this...
If you were to examine the corpse of a man who died seconds ago of natural causes while being healthy, and then the body of a man who is the same age but who has failing organs, broken limbs, but is alive... What would you realize? You would realize that life is not something physical and has nothing to do with the physical world. It cannot be understood by you, me, scientists or the brightest man on earth.

This is proof to me that "someone" out there, is giving life, and is also taking it away with a timing and with reasoning that we all fail to understand.

Anything that cannot be seen, touched, or examined might appear as not existent. Just because you can't understand it, doesn't make it unreal, IMO.

But why so specific? Occam's Razor.
Why do you need a personified God?
Why make it an individual being?
Why can't nature act alone?

You don't have to have a personified God to make a universe.
Couldnt the universe have created itself in some unknown way?
Just as mysteriously as there being a God that mysteriously created everything for his pleasure?

 

[Warren Clark]

Does the question mean god a creator, god a spirit, or something else?

It can be whatever you believe. Just state why you might believe that.

 

[dantech]

Yes I did...



But why so specific? Occam's Razor.
Why do you need a personified God?
Why make it an individual being?
Why can't nature act alone?

You don't have to have a personified God to make a universe.
Couldnt the universe have created itself in some unknown way?
Just as mysteriously as there being a God that mysteriously created everything for his pleasure?

Simple...
throw a chassis, engines, wings, etc... into a hole. Leave it there for a million years, and let me know if it becomes a plane without anyone actually building it.

 

[savagewind]

I believe God is The Creator, is A Spirit,and is A Person. Everything that I know fits for better or worse with everything else. I think that would not be possible without a Designer. I went looking for the Designer and what I think I found is a Person. So my belief began with observation. Also when I learned how old (actually young) the universe is I keep thinking what exists could not have been without some help.

It is possible for many people to believe all matter materialized out of nothing. I believe a spirit is out of nothing. Which one is easier to believe?

 

[Warren Clark]

Simple...
throw a chassis, engines, wings, etc... into a hole. Leave it there for a million years, and let me know if it becomes a plane without anyone actually building it.

each of those things were made up of smaller things that had earlier purposes.
start smaller way smaller.
an engine alone is made up of hundreds of parts.

but before that, lets stick with living creatures. metal obviously doesnt evolve into a plane, its a simple element.
a single celled organism, now thats another story.

 

[idav]

Please post your best evidence and reasoning behind why you think God exists.

Cause there appears to be a source with infinite power and potential.

 

[Warren Clark]

I believe God is The Creator, is A Spirit,and is A Person. Everything that I know fits for better or worse with everything else. I think that would not be possible without a Designer. I went looking for the Designer and what I think I found is a Person. So my belief began with observation. Also when I learned how old (actually young) the universe is I keep thinking what exists could not have been without some help.

It is possible for many people to believe all matter materialized out of nothing. I believe a spirit is out of nothing. Which one is easier to believe?

You are completely correct.

But conservation of mass goes back to the ancient greeks.

An important idea in ancient Greek philosophy was that "Nothing comes from nothing", so that what exists now has always existed:
no new matter can come into existence where there was none before.
An explicit statement of this, along with the further principle that nothing can pass away into nothing, is found in Empedocles (approx. 490–430 BCE):
"For it is impossible for anything to come to be from what is not, and it cannot be brought about or heard of that what is should be utterly destroyed."[1]

No one says nothing came from nothing. So why does there need to be a designer?

 

[Warren Clark]

Cause there appears to be a source with infinite power and potential.

i agree completely. but then I could call the universe "God"

 

[Warren Clark]

Panentheism; I see God as all that exists, but God is more than it.


I exist.

Otherwise, too personal to tell you.

so what makes this being more plausible than any other?

 

[dantech]

each of those things were made up of smaller things that had earlier purposes.
start smaller way smaller.
an engine alone is made up of hundreds of parts.

but before that, lets stick with living creatures. metal obviously doesnt evolve into a plane, its a simple element.
a single celled organism, now thats another story.

By saying a plane, i was actually being generous. A single celled organism is a million times more complex. And before this single celled organism existed, it needed an environment to live in. Who created this environment? You honestly believe it created itself? You believe that an explosion in the skies ended up, over millions/billions (who knows anymore?) in creating a solar system, which later consisted of multiple planets including earth. Now this earth, after another millions of years has adapted all the perfect requirements and conditions necessary to life. And then, this single celled organism transformed and transformed billions of times, over another billions of years to end up as the world we see today?

I'm sorry but it is way more difficult to believe that all that is possible with out a higher conscious out there making it possible, rather than just believing in God, creating all this, himself.

By the way, I am trying to argue using only logic because I assume you don't want to hear anything about the bible.

 

[Warren Clark]

By saying a plane, i was actually being generous. A single celled organism is a million times more complex. And before this single celled organism existed, it needed an environment to live in. Who created this environment? You honestly believe it created itself? You believe that an explosion in the skies ended up, over millions/billions (who knows anymore?) in creating a solar system, which later consisted of multiple planets including earth. Now this earth, after another millions of years has adapted all the perfect requirements and conditions necessary to life. And then, this single celled organism transformed and transformed billions of times, over another billions of years to end up as the world we see today?

I'm sorry but it is way more difficult to believe that all that is possible with out a higher conscious out there making it possible, rather than just believing in God, creating all this, himself.

By the way, I am trying to argue using only logic because I assume you don't want to hear anything about the bible.

there is a cause and reaction to everything. all you have to do is look backwards in time.
cause and effect, cause and effect...

forgive me i am going to rudely shorten this....
formed in this order with the beginning phenomenon.

big bang, galaxy, solar system, earth, moon. <- Beginning environment was created.
Energy when heated created the big bang, the massive energy creates matter.
Its how we get elements and eventually the man made atom bomb.

anyway...
Gases formed atmosphere caused by heat and gravity on a solid mass now known as earth.
after millions of years (relative to the age of the universe, its really hard to comprehend because we are human and we have limitations) the chemicals created gases and elements. with a reaction to this over time there were little microscopic buggers feeding on the elements. they came from the cesspool earth once was made of, thanks to water and other naturally forming gases.
from these little buggers evolution started to take off.

unfortunately not everyone takes the time to comprehend what their biology teachers tell them. I didnt take the time till college because during i highschool i would replace my text book with the bible.

science is an amazing thing, because all the theories fit together. they dont contradict each other like religion. its what i love about science. everyone in science can get along.




You can't get a plane together by evolution because it didnt subconsciously evolved. it was built from parts that were originally obtained for other uses.

The first organism didnt have a nuclei.... so it wasnt as complex as single celled organisms we see today

 

[idav]

i agree completely. but then I could call the universe "God"

Yes it could but I'd need to show the universe is it's own source which is entirely possible.

 

[Warren Clark]

Yes it could but I'd need to show the universe is it's own source which is entirely possible.

this is why atheists/pantheists/etc usually dont debate... it never goes anywhere:angel2:<3

 

[Breathe]

so what makes this being more plausible than any other?

As I believe all conceptions of God and gods are man's attempts at understanding and explaining their experiences accordingly (akin to The &#7770;g Veda's "Truth is One, Sages know it by many names")... It's my interpretation of it.

What makes this being more plausible than any other... any other what? Why is my conception of God any more believable than any other gods? That's okay; I believe they're the same manifestations.

Why panentheism over monotheism with a God who is utterly transcendent and nothing can be inferred from creation? Because it makes sense to me to see things from as panentheistic interpretation.

 

[dantech]

there is a cause and reaction to everything. all you have to do is look backwards in time.
cause and effect, cause and effect...

forgive me i am going to rudely shorten this....
formed in this order with the beginning phenomenon.

big bang, galaxy, solar system, earth, moon. <- Beginning environment was created.

Energy when heated created the big bang,

What Energy?How does energy exist without a source of energy? Today, yes, Space is full of energy, but this energy derives from the planets, the sun, the stars... How could energy exist when nothing else does to produce it? How do you heat something without a source of heat? Probably through speed or friction. Either way, it would require movement. How could movement exist without someone being there causing it to move.
I am not saying that the big bang is Impossible. I am saying that the initial spark of it, is. I am saying it doesn't matter how it was created, as long as someone was there to create it.

unfortunately not everyone takes the time to comprehend what their biology teachers tell them. I didnt take the time till college because during i highschool i would replace my text book with the bible.

I could say the very same thing about the bible. Not everyone takes the time to comprehend what their religion teacher tell them. Only problem with religion, is that there are too many. So you might assume that I am defending religion all together, when really, i am not. I can't make a strong enough case for others, but I certainly can for Judaism. I don't know what bible you read when you were a teenager. I don't know who taught you what you know about religion. But I assure you, that if you were to read a few passages of the Torah, you would see that there are passages that simply could not have been written by man.

science is an amazing thing, because all the theories fit together. they dont contradict each other like religion. its what i love about science. everyone in science can get along.

Science is indeed an amazing thing. All the theories, however, are just theories. They are assumptions of the possibilities, and that is all. I make a living with technology, so I am not opposed to science in any way. I am writing to you using the internet, another science invention. However the theories do not all fit together as you say. They fit together now, until one of them is proven wrong. Countless theories were proven wrong in the passed, and they will keep being proven wrong in the future. All it takes is for one individual to come prove to you that evolution and the big bang could not have happened, and you will believe him.

I, on the other hand, know there is a God. I have read things, I have learned things, that could not be written by man. They could, at the limit, have been written by some sort of way more knowledgeable being, but it would only make sens that is was written by someone who knows things that Science doesn't or didn't when it was written. These are not theories, like in science. These are facts.

You can't get a plane together by evolution because it didnt subconsciously evolved. it was built from parts that were originally obtained for other uses.

The plane was a metaphor.... I just meant that nothing could create itself. You can't be born without sperm and a uterus.

The first organism didnt have a nuclei.... so it wasnt as complex as single celled organisms we see today

How do you know? Because scientists say?

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[dantech]

there is a cause and reaction to everything. all you have to do is look backwards in time.
cause and effect, cause and effect...

forgive me i am going to rudely shorten this....
formed in this order with the beginning phenomenon.

big bang, galaxy, solar system, earth, moon. <- Beginning environment was created.

Energy when heated created the big bang,

What Energy?How does energy exist without a source of energy? Today, yes, Space is full of energy, but this energy derives from the planets, the sun, the stars... How could energy exist when nothing else does to produce it? How do you heat something without a source of heat? Probably through speed or friction. Either way, it would require movement. How could movement exist without someone or something being there causing it to move.
I am not saying that the big bang is Impossible. I am saying that the initial spark of it, is. I am saying it doesn't matter how it was created, as long as someone was there to create it.

unfortunately not everyone takes the time to comprehend what their biology teachers tell them. I didnt take the time till college because during i highschool i would replace my text book with the bible.

I could say the very same thing about the bible. Not everyone takes the time to comprehend what their religion teacher tell them. Only problem with religion, is that there are too many. So you might assume that I am defending religion all together, when really, i am not. I can't make a strong enough case for others, but I certainly can for Judaism. I don't know what bible you read when you were a teenager. I don't know who taught you what you know about religion. But I assure you, that if you were to read a few passages of the Torah, you would see that there are passages that simply could not have been written by man.

science is an amazing thing, because all the theories fit together. they dont contradict each other like religion. its what i love about science. everyone in science can get along.

Science is indeed an amazing thing. All the theories, however, are just theories. They are assumptions of the possibilities, and that is all. I make a living with technology, so I am not opposed to science in any way. I am writing to you using the internet, another science invention. However the theories do not all fit together as you say. They fit together now, until one of them is proven wrong. Countless theories were proven wrong in the passed, and they will keep being proven wrong in the future. All it takes is for one individual to come prove to you that evolution and the big bang could not have happened, and you will believe him.

I, on the other hand, know there is a God. I have read things, I have learned things, that could not be written by man. They could, at the limit, have been written by some sort of way more knowledgeable being, but it would only make sens that is was written by someone who knows things that Science doesn't or didn't when it was written.

You can't get a plane together by evolution because it didnt subconsciously evolved. it was built from parts that were originally obtained for other uses.

The plane was a metaphor.... I just meant that nothing could create itself. You can't be born without sperm and a uterus.

The first organism didnt have a nuclei.... so it wasnt as complex as single celled organisms we see today

How do you know? Because scientists say?

 

[savagewind]

You are completely correct.

But conservation of mass goes back to the ancient greeks.


No one says nothing came from nothing. So why does there need to be a designer?

Nothing physical can come from nothing. People can not even define what the spirit is, how can they claim spirit cannot come from nothing? There might not be a need for a designer. But without a designer there could be no life imo.

 

[PolyHedral]

What Energy?How does energy exist without a source of energy? Today, yes, Space is full of energy, but this energy derives from the planets, the sun, the stars... How could energy exist when nothing else does to produce it? How do you heat something without a source of heat? Probably through speed or friction. Either way, it would require movement. How could movement exist without someone or something being there causing it to move.
I am not saying that the big bang is Impossible. I am saying that the initial spark of it, is. I am saying it doesn't matter how it was created, as long as someone was there to create it.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It's always been here.

 

[dantech]

Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It's always been here.

Exactly. It could only change form. That's it. So what made it start spinning, to the point that it caused a spark that then ended up as the universe?

You believe that the earth had to be created somehow. You agree that the solar system had to be created somehow. That somehow for you guys, is the Big Bang. Let's say I agree with you. I am not satisfied, and I want to know what created the big bang! If it's energy, I want to know what created that energy. Until we get to a point where the creator could not be created.

The only solution for that, in my books, is God.

 

[PolyHedral]

Exactly. It could only change form. That's it. So what made it start spinning, to the point that it caused a spark that then ended up as the universe?

You believe that the earth had to be created somehow. You agree that the solar system had to be created somehow. That somehow for you guys, is the Big Bang. Let's say I agree with you. I am not satisfied, and I want to know what created the big bang! If it's energy, I want to know what created that energy. Until we get to a point where the creator could not be created.

The only solution for that, in my books, is God.

Nothing, because there was no start. There is no point in time in which energy did not exist. (Because the Big Bang was the earliest possible moment.)