• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is there a system in Nature/Universe, and in Quran/the Word of G-d?

paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
firedragon said:
What do you mean system? You mean like an order? You mean like a divine ordain or organisation? Brother, id rather be specific. Or maybe i am not getting something.
Click to expand...
Yes, I mean Quran has order, is well organized and it has systems in it resembling to the order, organization and systems in the nature/universe . Both (nature/universe and Quran) being from the same source. Quran authored by G-d and nature created by G-d. Does on see it or one doesn't?

Regards
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The system includes all of God's Messengers. That is the main covenant given by God, that we would not be left alone. In turn we were not to reject any Messenger sent by God.

We find the unity of humanity, we find faith and we find strong science's in obeying that covenant. If we reject any of the given Messengers, the whole system is based upon our own selves and progress is impossible, destruction enevitable.

The Quran is not the only secure Word of God, all Messengers are that Word and if one shuts off to either all of them, most of them or even some of them, the path forward is compromised.

Science is limited to the collective ability of our minds and how we choose to use that mind.

Regards Tony
Click to expand...
"The Quran is not the only secure Word of God"

I don't agree with one.
I understand Quran has reached us as pristine and secure direct Converse of G-d, that is why it has order,organization and system in it. Right, please?

Regards
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The Primal Will is the Word of God given by all God's Messengers.

Baháʼí cosmology - Wikipedia

"... In Baháʼí cosmology reality is divided into three divisions. The first division is God, who is preexistent and on whom the rest of creation is contingent. The second division is God's Logos, the Primal Will, which is the realm of God's commands and grace. This realm pervades all created things. The Manifestations of God, Messengers from God, are appearances of the Logos in the physical world. The third division is Creation, which includes the physical world. Creation is not seen as confined to the material universe, and individual material objects, such as the Earth, are seen to come into being at particular moment and then subsequently break down into their constituent parts.... "

Regards Tony
Click to expand...

Not relevant to quran
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
firedragon said:
Word in which sense?

Word as a creation? Word as in the literary word of God? Because according to the Quran, even trees are the word of God.
Click to expand...

I understand , Quran is spoken Word of G-d, His Converse with Muhammad, to his companions to the whole world at large and to the people who were to come in future. Right, please?

Regards
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
danieldemol said:
There are manmade systems and naturally occurring systems.

So far you have not demonstrated the Quran with all its flaws is systematic, but even if you did this would at best demonstrate that it is a manmade system.
Click to expand...
"Quran with all its flaws" ???!!!

First please tell us if one finds order/system in nature/universe. If yes, then we will talk about the order and system in Quran that resembles with it. Else, we would go off-topic. I request to read the OP, please.

Regards
 
sun rise

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
paarsurrey said:
Sorry, that is never my intention at all. One may be a Non-Muslim, yet if he had read Quran from cover to cover intently, I understand, he would have found Quran systematic, for the obvious reasons. Right, please?

Regards
Click to expand...
I don't find is systematic. And Quranic scholars speak of various parts of the Quran superseding others as is illustrated in this book excerpt.
 
gnostic

gnostic

The Lost One
paarsurrey said:
Is there a system in Nature/Universe, and in Quran/the only secure and pristine truthful Word of G-d?
And how does one find this system in Nature/Universe? Is it through Science, please?
Click to expand...
What system are you talking about?

Your questions are too vague?

Are you just talking about nature?

Or are you talking about the Quran?

Because bringing in the Quran complicates matter when you asking question about nature. They don’t mix well together.

Please clarify, because your questions are confusing.
 
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
paarsurrey said:
"The Quran is not the only secure Word of God"

I don't agree with one.
I understand Quran has reached us as pristine and secure direct Converse of G-d, that is why it has order,organization and system in it. Right, please?

Regards
Click to expand...

That is applicable to others.

It could be argued that the Baha'i System is more complete.

Regards Tony
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
I understand , Quran is spoken Word of G-d, His Converse with Muhammad, to his companions to the whole world at large and to the people who were to come in future. Right, please?

Regards
Click to expand...
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
A quick look shows it most likely is

2:117 Yusuf Ali: To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.
Click to expand...

So even a tree is the word of god.

Okay. So you're speaking of that use of the word. So prophets are just creation. Nothing special?
 
danieldemol

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
paarsurrey said:
"Quran with all its flaws" ???!!!

First please tell us if one finds order/system in nature/universe. If yes, then we will talk about the order and system in Quran that resembles with it. Else, we would go off-topic. I request to read the OP, please.

Regards
Click to expand...
The OP was read, and the answer to your question was that there are systems at work in nature.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
gnostic said:
What system are you talking about?

Your questions are too vague?

Are you just talking about nature?
Or are you talking about the Quran?

Because bringing in the Quran complicates matter when you asking question about nature. They don’t mix well together.

Please clarify, because your questions are confusing.
Click to expand...
"Are you just talking about nature?
Or are you talking about the Quran?"

I am talking about both:
  1. System in nature/universe
  2. And system in Quran- the truthful, pristine and secure Word of G-d
  3. Since the former, I understand, is created by G-d and as such is Word of G-d
  4. and, the later, Quran is not authored by Muhammad but authored by G-d
  5. Therefore, the system of both the above have strong relationship with one another which, I understand cannot be denied
  6. The reason being from the same source of G-d.
Did it help to remove the confusion and vagueness in OP, please?
I hope it must have. Right, please?

Regards
 
LuisDantas

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
paarsurrey said:
"eye of the beholder"

Some people don't see any system in the universe and they express that universe is chaotic. Right, please?
Click to expand...
I don't know that I would call it chaotic as such. As so many other dychotomies, this one may be oversimplistic and perhaps misleading.

At the very least, we should take notice that many natural occurrences do in fact show forms of spontaneous organization without necessarily being part of some sort of system.

Water doplets organize into spheroids, normal distributions occur naturally. That sort of thing.

Evolution of biological species is another good example, as a matter of fact.

Whether that should be called chaotic or just naturally occurring is probably a matter of aesthetical preference.

If that would have been correct then no science would have existed. Right, please?

Regards
Click to expand...

I guess that you are answering your own question here. Science exists and works. Existence is predictable enough for that to be possible, and not chaotic enough to make science unworkable.

Again, what if anything we should conclude from that - particularly from a theological perspective - may well be an arbitrary choice.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
That is applicable to others.

It could be argued that the Baha'i System is more complete.

Regards Tony
Click to expand...
Welcome for one's input, please.

Kindly elaborate from Iqan- one of the core book of one's religion, please.
  1. First one has to put forward the claim from G-d that he has authored it, please.
  2. Then the reasons/signs from G-d that it is undoubtedly authored it.
  3. Then one shall have to demonstrate the system of Iqan with examples, please.
Right, please?

Regards
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top