Is there a system in Nature/Universe, and in Quran/the Word of G-d?

[paarsurrey]

I don't know that I would call it chaotic as such. As so many other dychotomies, this one may be oversimplistic and perhaps misleading.

At the very least, we should take notice that many natural occurrences do in fact show forms of spontaneous organization without necessarily being part of some sort of system.

Water doplets organize into spheroids, normal distributions occur naturally. That sort of thing.

Evolution of biological species is another good example, as a matter of fact.

Whether that should be called chaotic or just naturally occurring is probably a matter of aesthetical preference.

I guess that you are answering your own question here. Science exists and works. Existence is predictable enough for that to be possible, and not chaotic enough to make science unworkable.

Again, what if anything we should conclude from that - particularly from a theological perspective - may well be an arbitrary choice.

Weather was considered to be a spontaneous occurring, but now they know almost accurately the systems at work, so they predict weather almost accurately . So, it only needed further investigation.
Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't know that I would call it chaotic as such. As so many other dychotomies, this one may be oversimplistic and perhaps misleading.

At the very least, we should take notice that many natural occurrences do in fact show forms of spontaneous organization without necessarily being part of some sort of system.

Water doplets organize into spheroids, normal distributions occur naturally. That sort of thing.

Evolution of biological species is another good example, as a matter of fact.

Whether that should be called chaotic or just naturally occurring is probably a matter of aesthetical preference.


I guess that you are answering your own question here. Science exists and works. Existence is predictable enough for that to be possible, and not chaotic enough to make science unworkable.

Again, what if anything we should conclude from that - particularly from a theological perspective - may well be an arbitrary choice.

"natural occurrences"
"naturally occurring"

One has used the above phrases/words commonly used by us.
What does one mean from the words "natural" and "naturally", one's own understanding, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't find is systematic. And Quranic scholars speak of various parts of the Quran superseding others as is illustrated in this book excerpt.

One's own natural observation while reading Quran from cover to cover, please.
That will form proper investigation in the matter. Right, please?
"Eye of the beholder" as our friend @LuisDantas describes it.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't know that I would call it chaotic as such. As so many other dychotomies, this one may be oversimplistic and perhaps misleading.

At the very least, we should take notice that many natural occurrences do in fact show forms of spontaneous organization without necessarily being part of some sort of system.

Water doplets organize into spheroids, normal distributions occur naturally. That sort of thing.

Evolution of biological species is another good example, as a matter of fact.

Whether that should be called chaotic or just naturally occurring is probably a matter of aesthetical preference.



I guess that you are answering your own question here. Science exists and works. Existence is predictable enough for that to be possible, and not chaotic enough to make science unworkable.

Again, what if anything we should conclude from that - particularly from a theological perspective - may well be an arbitrary choice.

"Science exists and works"

Science is a non-material tool, it only exists in the minds of some humans. Perhaps one wants to say that nature/universe exists and is running. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Sounds like you've unsurprisingly presumed your answers here.

Sorry sir, I don't get one exactly. Please elaborate for me.

Regards

 

[firedragon]

"Science exists and works"

Science is a non-material tool, it only exists in the minds of some humans. Perhaps one wants to say that nature/universe exists and is running. Right, please?

Regards

Bro. You do know that you are using the word "Please" in the most wrong way possible right? Am i offending you by saying this? Dont use the word 'please'.

 

[paarsurrey]

You're just repeating your vague question.
You're goint to have to add some clarity.

I have tried to in the later posts replying to other friends, please have a look.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The Primal Will is the Word of God given by all God's Messengers.

Baháʼí cosmology - Wikipedia

"... In Baháʼí cosmology reality is divided into three divisions. The first division is God, who is preexistent and on whom the rest of creation is contingent. The second division is God's Logos, the Primal Will, which is the realm of God's commands and grace. This realm pervades all created things. The Manifestations of God, Messengers from God, are appearances of the Logos in the physical world. The third division is Creation, which includes the physical world. Creation is not seen as confined to the material universe, and individual material objects, such as the Earth, are seen to come into being at particular moment and then subsequently break down into their constituent parts.... "

Regards Tony

Friend, I understand, there is no Bahai Cosmology, it could be Bahai perception of the Universe. Right, please?

Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

Weather was considered to be a spontaneous occurring, but now they know almost accurately the systems at work, so they predict weather almost accurately . So, it only needed further investigation.
Right, please?

Regards

Again, that makes sense or fails to, depending entirely on what one deems worth of calling a system.

 

[paarsurrey]

Of course, yes, it's all a system. Why?

BTW, I have no idea why you would introduce the Quran as a system. It's a book written by a man. A system in nature occurs naturally. Books don't evolve themselves. They are the product of human conceptualizations and opinions, typically with an agenda in mind. They are not natural organic creations.

One finds system in the nature/universe as one/humans have investigated with the tool of science and withe a lot of effort has found out the systems at work.
One has not so far, I understand, read Quran from cover to cover, so how could one know them or deny them, please.
Right, please?

Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

"natural occurrences"
"naturally occurring"

One has used the above phrases/words commonly used by us.
What does one mean from the words "natural" and "naturally", one's own understanding, please?

Regards

Mainly, that it can be demonstrated to exist and that there are no indications of supernatural aspects to those events.

For the purposes of this thread I should probably emphasize that when I talk of what occurs naturally I am definitely not offering that those occurrences somehow hint of a Creator God.

What exists, exists. We do not need to presume a Divine Will "behind it all". And IMO we should not. It is an unnecessary and often actively harmful presumption.

"Science exists and works"

Science is a non-material tool, it only exists in the minds of some humans. Perhaps one wants to say that nature/universe exists and is running. Right, please?

Regards

I just don't understand what the difference would be.

 

[Earthtank]

Is there a system in Nature/Universe, and in Quran/the only secure and pristine truthful Word of G-d?
And how does one find this system in Nature/Universe? Is it through Science, please?
Thread open to everybody of Religion or No-Religion.

Regards

Why do you say/type "G-d" instead of God?

 

[paarsurrey]

Why do you say/type "G-d" instead of God?

To differentiate from a human god like Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Bahaullah etc, none of them was god. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Earthtank]

To differentiate from a human god like Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Bahaullah etc, none of them was god. Right, please?

Regards

Agreed. None of those were God but, since you are talking about Islam/Quran why not say Allah? Or even say God and be precise in how you are using it by emphasizing that there's difference between Jesus, Krishna, etc. By saying "G-d" it seems you are lowering the one whom you believe is the one true God and not calling him by his true name and giving credence to all the other fake gods. Just my opinion.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
"Science exists and works"

Science is a non-material tool, it only exists in the minds of some humans. Perhaps one wants to say that nature/universe exists and is running. Right, please?

Regards

I just don't understand what the difference would be.

I find one's above sentence after quoting excerpt from my post given above. And it is about "Science exists and is working".
I understand that if one uses the "Scientific Method" to explore the existence of Science, it won't prove the existence of Science. That is the difference.
Science and Scientific Method could and have explored the Nature/Universe and discovered so many good things though. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Agreed. None of those were God but, since you are talking about Islam/Quran why not say Allah? Or even say God and be precise in how you are using it by emphasizing that there's difference between Jesus, Krishna, etc. By saying "G-d" it seems you are lowering the one whom you believe is the one true God and not calling him by his true name and giving credence to all the other fake gods. Just my opinion.

"Agreed" "Just my opinion"
Thanks friend.

To add:

When I first started writing in the Forums, it was in a Judaism Forum. The owner/moderator of the Forum told me (or as some Bahais use the word, "revealed" to me" without any Word of Revelation from G-d, per se ) that in the Western society when one says "I don't believe in God", he means that he doesn't believe Jesus as god. Right, please?
I also observed that some Judaism people also write God as G-d to differentiate.
Allah is also used as a common noun like god, but in the Quranic language it is a proper name of the Being with specific attributes mentioned in Quran. Right, please?
I use both Allah and G-d and seldom as God. Right, please?

Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

paarsurrey said: ↑
"Science exists and works"

Science is a non-material tool, it only exists in the minds of some humans. Perhaps one wants to say that nature/universe exists and is running. Right, please?

Regards

You are taking the word "material" far beyond its meaning. Science exists in this world. It is not abstract. It produces knowledge that can be expressed, used, tested, improved upon.

I find one's above sentence after quoting excerpt from my post given above. And it is about "Science exists and is working".
I understand that if one uses the "Scientific Method" to explore the existence of Science, it won't prove the existence of Science. That is the difference.
Science and Scientific Method could and have explored the Nature/Universe and discovered so many good things though. Right, please?

Regards

Again, you are not making any clear sense to me. Of course science exists.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Is there a system in Nature/Universe, and in Quran/the only secure and pristine truthful Word of G-d?
And how does one find this system in Nature/Universe? Is it through Science, please?
Thread open to everybody of Religion or No-Religion.

Regards

A system as in a pattern nature has that is synonym to a creator?

From a nature perspective, no. There's no pattern or system. Take cancer and seizures. The body does what it's supposed to do. We can't tell the body it acted "unnaturally" just because it went out of its perceived system. We treat these things because of the results of them. If they caused no results (like my benign tumor), there is no reason to treat it Same with seizures and earthquakes and storms.

People make patterns or systems; and, when we break out of those systems say disobey god of the Quran or sin or so have you, it's a human mishap. So, from a human perspective we see systems and patterns everywhere. That's how we survive. Think of it if we didn't know the process of some cancers and we didn't understand the nature of one seizure over another, we'd be, um, at a disadvantage.

I haven't read the Quran in full to compare.

 

[sun rise]

To differentiate from a human god like Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Bahaullah etc, none of them was god. Right, please?

Regards

I don't agree. From a non-Muslim perspective, Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and others were God in human form (or part of the Trinity if someone is a Christian).

 

[danieldemol]

So, please, what is the foremost system in nature/universe that one has observed. How did one come to know about it, please?

Regards

I don’t know about “foremost” but an example of a prominent system could be the water cycle, or the solar system.

I learnt about these through observation and education.