Is there an afterlife? / The ultimate goal for man

[Evandr]

Keep your glory. I'll take a nice bacon sandwich and a cold brew over kissing some imaginary deity's behind all my life.
And I'm not kidding.

I believe that we came to this earth with one goal in mind - to return to the presence of our Heavenly Father and become like him. I believe that we have had millennia of pre mortal existence and preparation for this mortal trial, the memory of which will be returned to us when we are done here. When you couple that memory of who and what we were before mortality with the reality of how we spent our mortality then those who blew it will have the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth for their failure while those who measured up to the goal will have joy beyond mortal comprehension - so go ahead, eat your bacon sandwich and drink your brew, enjoy it while you can because, IMHO, the day will come when, if you fail mortality, the thought of doing so will be putrid when compared to the price paid to maintain such an attitude.

 

[waitasec]

I believe that we came to this earth with one goal in mind - to return to the presence of our Heavenly Father and become like him.

gotta fix something...

I believe that I came to this earth with one goal in mind....

better.

 

[Evandr]

To Evandr:

Do you think that I would commit "crimes" or "atrocities" without consequences and accountability, simply because I don't believe in the afterlife?

Because that's basically what yaddoe is saying. It is rubbish, and it is stereotyping.

Do you think I am immoral and amoral person? How can you judge a person who you don't know, with or without religious background?

Such self-righteousness attitude never go well with me. If either my LDS brother-in-law or my sister spoke that way, I'd blast them too.

No- No, No, No, I did not say that there were not good people who do not believe in an afterlife, all I said is that judgment looms and that it is not as simple as black and white, Heaven or Hell, Christian or non Christian. I believe that our preparation to become like our Heavenly Father began long before mortality and will continue long after we leave it. Mortality is simply a turning point that will set the directional compass toward our final destination. I believe that all, save those who choose to walk out into outer darkness (Lucifer’s realm) by their own accord, will ultimately end up in some degree of glory because we all kept our first estate (we did not follow Lucifer into outer darkness) but not all will be given the privilege of the presence of the Father and eternal increase – that must be earned. It is by that reality, IMHO, that will make a wonderful place outside the realms and presence of God seem hellishly inadequate by comparison. What I am saying does reconcile the perfect love of God with the demands of justice for justice cannot be robbed by mercy.

That is not being self righteous, that is being a realist and recognizing that opinion does not justify anything. I am telling you what I believe about God and have said nothing about you as an individual, you may be a good man, a wonderful friend, a moral and upstanding citizen but that does not change the reality of what I believe about the “system”. I am not judging those who are being tested in it, that is not my place, it is God’s place to do so; it is however, my place and right to give voice to what I believe as it is yours.

 

[Evandr]

gotta fix something...



better.

No, I did not say that so get it right for once, I said "WE" and I meant it. I believe that the fact that you are here on earth indicates that you chose to be here and being here has but one ultimate goal and purpose - to return to the presence of our Heavenly Father and become like Him!!

 

[Looncall]

I believe that we came to this earth with one goal in mind - to return to the presence of our Heavenly Father and become like him. I believe that we have had millennia of pre mortal existence and preparation for this mortal trial, the memory of which will be returned to us when we are done here. When you couple that memory of who and what we were before mortality with the reality of how we spent our mortality then those who blew it will have the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth for their failure while those who measured up to the goal will have joy beyond mortal comprehension - so go ahead, eat your bacon sandwich and drink your brew, enjoy it while you can because, IMHO, the day will come when, if you fail mortality, the thought of doing so will be putrid when compared to the price paid to maintain such an attitude.

Do you have any actual evidence that this is true?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Again, you writing nonsense.

Right now with people who do believe in the afterlife, this doesn't deterrent people from committing murder.

Charlemagne was very devout Christian. He had slaughtered thousands of pagan Saxons at the point of the sword, and only those who converted were spared. The promise of the afterlife wasn't deterrent to stop massacre. If anything it was license to kill, because Pope Leo, who would later crowned as the Holy Roman Emperor (800 CE), praised Charlemagne for being a model Christian and a champion of Christianity.

And it doesn't stop there. In Jesus' name, Christians even kill other Christians.

How many were killed in the name of Christ or in the name of God?

I certainly couldn't hazard a guess.

Even with the afterlife, what is the difference between melting snowflakes and killing people.

Just because you pray or read whatever scriptures you may, Christians (including LDS) are no different from everyone else. Neither the promise of everlasting rewards in heaven or the threat of eternal punishment will a Christian or any other religious people for that matter, from committing a crime, especially where he or she may something from it.

So spare me your horrible logic.

Do you think I go around committing crimes simply because I don't believe in the afterlife?

I know the Mormons, well at least the good ones, don't drink, smoke, do drug, or even drink coffee. So big fricking deal. I don't drink, smoke, drug or drink coffee too. You may not do these because whatever your prophet JS may have taught or what your church teach you. But I do all of these things because I don't like the taste of cigarette, alcohol or coffee. It does make me a better person than you, but it also doesn't make you better person than me.

I also don't steal or murder, simply I don't like hurting other people. I don't need a fricking holy book, church, prophet, Jesus or God to tell me what's right or wrong. I don't need the religious crutches to do what's right.

You are bringing deity into it again, I'm not talking about deity, I'm just trying to talk about if there is an afterlife or not.
Yes I am very aware of the horrible attrocities people have committed even believing in an afterlife, again back to the Chinese Emperor Qin who built the 8,000 Terracotta Warriors, when he died he made sure that every one of his real life warriors drank cyanide and had them kill them selves and they did for some willfully and for some forcefully. I never said that all who believe in an afterlife are considered saints. I am stating that without an afterlife there is no such thing as right and wrong, however with an afterlife there is a possibility of right and wrong existing. Exactly what is right and what is wrong is another story and is the reason why so many "afterlife believing people" thinking they are doing good commit horrible attrocitys. Do you get it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I personally believe there is and that this life has a point and isn't just about growing and growing and growing only one day to be toppled into non existence.

Why?

Because you're just so important that the universe can't stand to lose you?

I'm just stating that going throughout life, building a family, and building great relationships with a spouse and friends just to suddenly lose it forever sounds horrible. For me it would be better to never even start. Why torture your self? I take a lot of comfort knowing that it will not all amount to nothing in the end, but that my actions in this life actually mean something and will not amount to naught in the end.

What does one thing have to do with the other?

Don't you believe that God, Christ, or whatnot has some divine plan that he'll bring to fruition? Do you think the success of this plan depends on you?

If yes, then I'd say you have an inordinate amount of unfounded pride in yourself.

If not, then your actions on Earth are entirely futile. What you do will no more affect the end result than if everyone just dies when they die and the universe ends some day.

What difference would it make in the end between cutting my life short or living a long and hopefully happy life? If there is no afterlife, there is no difference. You might say in my life I can make my neighbors life happier, but if he is just going to disappear to there is no difference.

No, it's all the difference. You're basing your frame of reference on a comparison that you have no reason to use.

I think that it would be very nice if I had an unlimited balance in my bank account: that I could just take as much money out as I wanted and it would never run out. Does this mean that I shouldn't be careful with my money, or that I should consider my house to be valueless (since it doesn't hold a candle to the awesome mansion I'd buy if I had unlimited money, after all)?

If we did not exist before we were born and we will not exist after we die then we are all tiny specs of nothingness in the vast expance of eternity. I believe that we are more than that. That life is more than that.

So... you want the universe itself to care about you. Why?

I think a lot of people would prefer that, just because they hate the feeling of having to face the unknown. Life would be easier that way, you can do whatever you want including killing people and doing all manner of atrocities and never once have to worry about the consequences. People in general don't like the feeling of having to be accountable for anything.

Personally, I find that empathy for others provides all the reason I would ever need to treat them properly. I think this sort of accountability is accessible to the average religious person, too, if they think about it a bit.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I personally believe there is and that this life has a point and isn't just about growing and growing and growing only one day to be toppled into non existence.

I don't.

 

[Evandr]

Do you have any actual evidence that this is true?

There is a lot to be said for common sense, the way things fit together and reconcile each other, the testimonies of millions (including this one), the fact that it just will not go away like nonsense eventually does. Prophesy is a telling clue because it is happening all around us precisely as foretold. Things hap[pen that cannot be explained by science, power is manifest, far too many histories are told supporting the existence of God for them to all me malicious lies.

There are the questions of how did it all happen when even science will tell you that when the numbers are crunched it could not have happened on its own. Not having tangible evidence for some things is a part of the trial by design.

You have to look at the whole picture and it has to make sense as a whole. There is where the problem with most concepts of religion begins, people pick and choose what they want to believe, totally ignoring what for them are the hard facts and/or considerations and then wonder why their whole agenda falls apart when closely examined leaving the only challenge left to them is "prove it" or hollow questions like "do you have any evidence for that?" when the evidence is all around us, we are steeped in it yet most people now days spend their entire life making excuses for not recognizing what is right in front of them and that is sad, how sad only time will tell but I believe that SAD will be the final state of those who wasted their time.

Truth is out there and spending all one's time decrying the beliefs of others because they cannot program your mind with it by some means of their own is not the actions of a wise person.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Why?

Because you're just so important that the universe can't stand to lose you?


What does one thing have to do with the other?

Don't you believe that God, Christ, or whatnot has some divine plan that he'll bring to fruition? Do you think the success of this plan depends on you?

If yes, then I'd say you have an inordinate amount of unfounded pride in yourself.

If not, then your actions on Earth are entirely futile. What you do will no more affect the end result than if everyone just dies when they die and the universe ends some day.


No, it's all the difference. You're basing your frame of reference on a comparison that you have no reason to use.

I think that it would be very nice if I had an unlimited balance in my bank account: that I could just take as much money out as I wanted and it would never run out. Does this mean that I shouldn't be careful with my money, or that I should consider my house to be valueless (since it doesn't hold a candle to the awesome mansion I'd buy if I had unlimited money, after all)?


So... you want the universe itself to care about you. Why?


Personally, I find that empathy for others provides all the reason I would ever need to treat them properly. I think this sort of accountability is accessible to the average religious person, too, if they think about it a bit.

You are changing the subject and talking about deity again, lets keep it on whether or not there is an afterlife.
It isn't about me, its about being prepared when you die. Its about whether right and wrong really exist, and if justice really exists, and also about the value of life. Did you understand my statement about how not believing in an afterlife justifies everything Hitler did. Would you agree with that? Why or Why not?

 

[Looncall]

There is a lot to be said for common sense, the way things fit together and reconcile each other, the testimonies of millions (including this one), the fact that it just will not go away like nonsense eventually does. Prophesy is a telling clue because it is happening all around us precisely as foretold. Things hap[pen that cannot be explained by science, power is manifest, far too many histories are told supporting the existence of God for them to all me malicious lies.

There are the questions of how did it all happen when even science will tell you that when the numbers are crunched it could not have happened on its own. Not having tangible evidence for some things is a part of the trial by design.

You have to look at the whole picture and it has to make sense as a whole. There is where the problem with most concepts of religion begins, people pick and choose what they want to believe, totally ignoring what for them are the hard facts and/or considerations and then wonder why their whole agenda falls apart when closely examined leaving the only challenge left to them is "prove it" or hollow questions like "do you have any evidence for that?" when the evidence is all around us, we are steeped in it yet most people now days spend their entire life making excuses for not recognizing what is right in front of them and that is sad, how sad only time will tell but I believe that SAD will be the final state of those who wasted their time.

Truth is out there and spending all one's time decrying the beliefs of others because they cannot program your mind with it by some means of their own is not the actions of a wise person.

None of this is convincing. In fact, much of it is plain untrue. I reject your arrogant claim of superiority.

I think you have been conned.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

None of this is convincing. In fact, much of it is plain untrue. I reject your arrogant claim of superiority.

I think you have been conned.

What does all this stuff have to do with there being an afterlife or not?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I personally believe there is and that this life has a point and isn't just about growing and growing and growing only one day to be toppled into non existence.

Yes, many people share this irrational fear.

In my studies I have learned that Hindus believe that the ultimate goal for man to achieve is to break the cycle of reincarnation and cease to exist, while for a great many others it is the ultimate goal to live forever. What do you think the ultimate goal is for man?

As an individual, your biological imperative is to survive long enough to successfully pass along your genes and raise your offspring. As a species, our goal is to either evolve or die off.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are changing the subject and talking about deity again, lets keep it on whether or not there is an afterlife.

No, I didn't mention deity at all.

It isn't about me, its about being prepared when you die. Its about whether right and wrong really exist, and if justice really exists, and also about the value of life.

Which, again, comes back to you: you want the things that are important to you to have cosmic significance, and you want this significance to be reflected in physical reality in some way. I get it.

Did you understand my statement about how not believing in an afterlife justifies everything Hitler did. Would you agree with that? Why or Why not?

Did you understand my point about empathy?

There's more to accountability than divine punishment after we die. And I think it's especially strange that you're invoking these ideas in the name of a religion that says all of your justly-deserved divine punishment can be avoided if you do and believe the right things.

 

[cablescavenger]

so if there is no afterlife? what is the point of this life? If there is no point, everyone should just go commit suicide because we are all doomed to a state of non existence anyway and it will make no difference. However, if we suddenly do that and afterwords find out that there was a big point to life that we just missed, I suppose it would be a really big oops moment wouldn't it.

I think that you are being slightly melodramatic, there is plenty of reason to enjoy life!

Not everyone lives their life worrying about an afterlife, because they happily do not support the existence of a God or an afterlife.

Statistically these people have a better than average moral record, a better than average education, a better than average lifestyle, are less likely to kill themselves, they are also statistically correct to not believing in God, and they get to enjoy life without inhibition, and explore it for what it is, with unlimited possibility.

Suppose you are wrong?

 

[Breathe]

Statistically these people have a better than average moral record, a better than average education, a better than average lifestyle, are less likely to kill themselves,

I dunno in what Britain you live, but I know I've encountered plenty of uneducated scumbags who don't believe in anything. Most Britons seem to be irreligious and atheists where I am, but that doesn't mean I live in a safe area.

To correlate religion or irreligion on morality and happiness is kind of, well, silly.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Why?

Because you're just so important that the universe can't stand to lose you?


What does one thing have to do with the other?

Don't you believe that God, Christ, or whatnot has some divine plan that he'll bring to fruition? Do you think the success of this plan depends on you?

If yes, then I'd say you have an inordinate amount of unfounded pride in yourself.

If not, then your actions on Earth are entirely futile. What you do will no more affect the end result than if everyone just dies when they die and the universe ends some day.


No, it's all the difference. You're basing your frame of reference on a comparison that you have no reason to use.

I think that it would be very nice if I had an unlimited balance in my bank account: that I could just take as much money out as I wanted and it would never run out. Does this mean that I shouldn't be careful with my money, or that I should consider my house to be valueless (since it doesn't hold a candle to the awesome mansion I'd buy if I had unlimited money, after all)?


So... you want the universe itself to care about you. Why?


Personally, I find that empathy for others provides all the reason I would ever need to treat them properly. I think this sort of accountability is accessible to the average religious person, too, if they think about it a bit.

Why don't you. Answer my question about the Hitler thing unless you think you are cornered. If there is no afterlife then our lives are as meaningless as the shape of a snowflake and the sun could explode killing everyone on earth and it wouldn't mean a thing or in other words it would be no big deal.

 

[Evandr]

None of this is convincing. In fact, much of it is plain untrue. I reject your arrogant claim of superiority.

I think you have been conned.

At least I have a firm foundation for my beliefs. You keep saying that I am claiming some sort of superiority when I am not; I am just seeing things as the evidence presents it to me and then giving you my take on things. I think that you seeing claims of superiority where there are none translates to you seeing something inferior in yourself ergo the contrast and ergo your trying to put the blame on me because you cannot deal with the sandy foundation upon which you have built your thesis. Those who do nothing fearing that being conned will be the ultimate result are creating a self fulfilling prophesy – In short you’re conning yourself.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why don't you.

Why don't I what?

Answer my question about the Hitler thing unless you think you are cornered.

I already did: simple empathy gives more than enough accountability for a functioning morality, and I believe that anyone is - or at least starts out - capable of empathy.

Edit: also, your remark makes me think that you have some rather odd ideas about burden of proof.

If there is no afterlife then our lives are as meaningless as the shape of a snowflake and the sun could explode killing everyone on earth and it wouldn't mean a thing or in other words it would be no big deal.

"No big deal" according to who? If everything I ever care about is destroyed, it would be a very big deal to me, and my point of view is the only one I have.

Maybe the universe, or God, or a rock on some planet light years away doesn't care if it's destroyed... well, none of those things are me, so their decisions don't necessarily have to inform mine.

But I'm really curious about something you skipped over: if God's going to create some perfect arrangement at some point in the future, then the final outcome of humanity is just as certain as a scientific prediction that the universe will end some day.

If the fact that the outcome is fixed is what makes our lives meaningless (which is what it seems you're arguing), then doesn't God's divine plan make your life meaningless?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Why don't I what?


I already did: simple empathy gives more than enough accountability for a functioning morality, and I believe that anyone is - or at least starts out - capable of empathy.

Edit: also, your remark makes me think that you have some rather odd ideas about burden of proof.


"No big deal" according to who? If everything I ever care about is destroyed, it would be a very big deal to me, and my point of view is the only one I have.

Maybe the universe, or God, or a rock on some planet light years away doesn't care if it's destroyed... well, none of those things are me, so their decisions don't necessarily have to inform mine.

But I'm really curious about something you skipped over: if God's going to create some perfect arrangement at some point in the future, then the final outcome of humanity is just as certain as a scientific prediction that the universe will end some day.

If the fact that the outcome is fixed is what makes our lives meaningless (which is what it seems you're arguing), then doesn't God's divine plan make your life meaningless?

Sorry, I was trying to say why don't you answer my question, but its kinda hard to type on my phone.

So you believe there was nothing wrong with what Hitler did?

It is no big deal if the world gets destroyed because our sun is just going to go super nova someday anyway. Everyone is just going to cease to exist someday anyway. If that is the case it makes no difference whether we live or die. Who cares if a very unique looking snow flake melts? From what I understand about snowflakes is there are no two snowflakes that look exactly the same and every single one of them is unique. I don't mourn every time a snowflake melts, should I and why should I mourn every time a person dies?

Everything you care about is all going to get destroyed one day anyway, what is the point in caring about it? You are just setting yourself up to get your heart broken.

The only difference between nuking a country today and some natural disaster wiping out the country 20 years from now is there will be more people to die in the future. today less pain 20 years from now more pain.
Killing people must be a good thing.