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Is there any reason to reject the science of evolution, other than religious beliefs?

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You're just grumpy because there is more evidence for the raindrops idea than for God.
Yours or any one else's...
Actually I don't think so. But -- we all make choices as to what we believe. Some say they believe in God and evolution, but do not offer any reason for believing in God as they put forth evolution as the reason we are here..
So I'll state it again -- I used to believe in evolution. Now I see there are really big gaps in the theory, in fact, little to no real evidence. Fossils are not evidence of the actual generation. And by evidence I mean actually seeing the proof (yes, I know, no proof in science, etc. so anyway the evidence put forth is not proof and does not mean that the theory is true), that fish evolved eventually to become humans. Or dinosaurs evolving to eventually become birds. Simply nothing beyond conjecture over fossils as if that means dinosaurs evolved to become birds and fish evolved to become humans.
 

McBell

Unbound
Actually I don't think so. But -- we all make choices as to what we believe. Some say they believe in God and evolution, but do not offer any reason for believing in God as they put forth evolution as the reason we are here..
So I'll state it again -- I used to believe in evolution. Now I see there are really big gaps in the theory, in fact, little to no real evidence. Fossils are not evidence of the actual generation. And by evidence I mean actually seeing the proof (yes, I know, no proof in science, etc. so anyway the evidence put forth is not proof and does not mean that the theory is true), that fish evolved eventually to become humans. Or dinosaurs evolving to eventually become birds. Simply nothing beyond conjecture over fossils as if that means dinosaurs evolved to become birds and fish evolved to become humans.
the problem here is that you give your beliefs what essentially is a free pass but nit pick your nit picking of evolution.
Two blatantly distinctive standards being used by you.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
the problem here is that you give your beliefs what essentially is a free pass but nit pick your nit picking of evolution.
Two blatantly distinctive standards being used by you.
I don't believe the theory of evolution.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
the problem here is that you give your beliefs what essentially is a free pass but nit pick your nit picking of evolution.
Two blatantly distinctive standards being used by you.
Nit picking? It's very important to back up the equation...supposed equation that is.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
There are religious believers who are going to be set in their ways & if that means rejecting the science of evolution, then it's probably a lost cause. I don't think there's any point in trying to change their minds, so I'm not interested in that.

I am, however, interested in finding out if there's a reason not based in any way on religious beliefs for rejecting the science of evolution. Is there any other reason?
The current model of evolution cannot make accurate future predictions and therefore has not advanced all the way to a rational model. This does not disprove the principles of evolution, but rather tells us the theory of evolution is still half baked. The principle of evolution has to do with the process of change through selection. The theory tries to fill in the specifics but cannot take this to the future.

For example, using basic laws of Newtonian Physics we can send a man/woman into space and land them at a very specific spot on the moon. The is an example of a rational model able to make accurate future predictions. The course is plotted in advance on paper. They do not have to send objects to the moon hundreds of times, with a blind fold, to sort of get it right; empirical science. That would be closer to empirical science, which is less advanced and is the state of current theory of evolution. It is not ready for prime science due some flawed premises that preclude reason.

Religion does not pick on rational models, since that would be illogical, due to proof of concept coming from its predictive value. Religion does not deny that space science can put a man on the moon. Empirical is different in that this requires faith, which can turn it into a type of religion. The weatherman can be right half the time and that is acceptable since it comes from empirical science. You will still watch. You could not have a space program based on odds. It needs to be nearly perfect; past, present and predictive future data. Nobody's life is dependent on evolution being fully rational, so you can serve half baked goods and get away with it; cookie dough. It is good with ice cream.

Evolution is more like going to the State Lottery Archives and listing all the previous winners of the lottery, to prove there is a lottery and there have been many lottery winners. Empirical can do that much. It can reveal what has been, and even shows pattens. You can even show the order of the winners and show patterns in terms of which cities have the most winners. You can even get fancy and reveal all forms of data trivia, like baseball trivia; the most stolen bases by a left handed hitter, who plays second base, during night games. But you still cannot predict the next winner. It falls short of a fully rational model; land on the moon and hit the target. Something is missing or there are some bad assumptions that are allowed, that appear to be valid, but do not allow you to reason to tangible future conclusions.

What compounds the problem is evolution is based on statistical math which places things in a black box. This creates the paradox often described as Schrödinger's cat. Since the black box of statistics is a input and output method, it has to remain closed, so we can not be 100% sure if the theory is right or wrong, so we have to assume both right and wrong; margin of error, at the same time. The lack of future predictive utility tells me, this is not the final theory, since it would not be right and wrong but just right. It is more like a stepping stone, using black box science and has not yet reached the age of enlightenment; reason, where we can open the black box and reason.

Most scientists who treat Evolution as dogma do not seem to understand there are different levels of science approach, with the black box approach useful, but not the final frontier. This is not the top of the science food chain. Being an applied scientist by training, I could not make something, that came from black box theory, and have no defects, with defects taboo in the market place. You need to depend more on rational theory that can predict the future, so you can control quality; see the future and make adjustments. A pure scientist may not need to be so specific, since discovering a new fossil, is an end all to itself, and this will not become the basis for a major manufacturing effort.

In terms of religion people, evolution via national selection is not much different from human selection of plants and animals. The farmer will pick his best stock and breed to make healthier offspring. Natural selection does this same thing, with humans copying nature. One difference I noticed can be seen with dogs. There are now over 200 breeds of dogs, according the international kennel clubs who define breed standards and keep records. All these dogs came from one natural species; wolves.

Natural selection is not as whimsical and manmade selection, with the pace of evolution slower. Natural selection stalled at the wolf since it a ideal classic design. Fossils records of science show how the best natural species, like wolves, linger and suddenly change, with gaps in the middle; missing links. It appears human selection is more in the gaps. We do not make new species, but rather we make more like missing links. That is done through genetic logic. The long quantum step approach of nature, is not well characterized by the modern theory; genetics alone. A more rational approach would be needed. Genetics is part of this, but nature appears to build a genetic platform to advance and when complete, poof a new species. We need another variable that helps to regulate these platforms.
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
And I'm saying that it doesn't. Now what?
Now we have a civil discussion of why you say is doesn't. Point, counterpoint.
OR you just leave it at...I don't want to discuss it further, I've made up my mind and we move on our respective ways.
That there might be an intelligent designer. What does it tell you? That there is one?
Um? That a simulation indicates specific purpose. Giving something specific purpose requires sentient deliberation. My whole premise is that observations of our current reality gives interpretable indications of purpose. Not even our "established" laws of nature are proven. They themselves are probabilistic presumptions.
OK. Is this evidence to you for a god?
Again...that word would need to be specifically defined. IF by "god" you mean a sentient intention to give purpose to our universe then, yes, much of modern scientific discoveries can be interpreted as evidence of that god...or not.
How that "god" did it, who knows? Even science can't give us that answer with or without introducing a god hypothesis.
The word god adds nothing except baggage involving conscious entities.
Unfortunately, whichever train mankind decides to get on we can't get to the end of the line without bringing along our accumulated baggage. Science is chock full of baggage. Humans are made such that they cannot know any truth without packing for the trip to get there.
I think your just being selective in what baggage you care to unpack.
Saying a term like god adds nothing is like saying a term like electron adds nothing to our knowledge of reality. Those terms are simply labels for potentials. We don't "know" electrons. We know of evidence of electrons which allows that we may be entirely wrong in our conception of electrons.
We have evidence of specific purpose for the universe. But we can't "know" the universe. So we may also be wrong about sentient purpose for the universe.

Maybe. Maybe not. I remain agnostic and an atheist until I have a reason to be otherwise. I don't see any benefit in guessing in these matters.
My original question then, to recap, was, why in the light of the fact that we don't know, do you choose to view the universe as not having a purpose? As being "godless" despite evidences of design and purpose if you acknowledge those evidences?
What does not believing in a sentient creation add to reality for you?
One benefit that science has indicated about some religious belief at least is that according to some studies it is generally healthy for a person.
Of course you don't, not if you don't care if you're believed.
Nice taking this out of context.
I don't have to make the argument since other more qualified individuals have done it for me.
I can present their arguments that I agree with and discuss them but I wouldn't be making a new argument. 99% of the people on here are presenting for discussion the arguments of others. Rarely have I came across a unique argument here.

Congrats on another year under your belt by the way. And with all your faculties in tact. That is a true blessing. So many that live long unfortunately don't prosper in that way. That is one of my nightmares...to live long but lose my mental abilities.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Congrats on another year under your belt by the way. And with all your faculties in tact. That is a true blessing. So many that live long unfortunately don't prosper in that way. That is one of my nightmares...to live long but lose my mental abilities.
Thanks for the kind words.

And that is something I think about - why are the people around me losing acumen and if I am, I can't detect it? Why can almost nobody answer the question they are asked? It's very rare these days for a yes or no question to be answered with one of those words or a suitable substitute, such as "maybe" or "I don't understand what you're asking." About twice a month, I have to ask somebody, "Was that a yes or a no?"

I wonder if active participation on this site isn't partly responsible for holding on better than expected and better than peers. I think harder doing this than anything else I do except perhaps playing and mentoring bridge (excerpt from a post online game with a friend below), which I've amplified with comments in brackets to explain some of the jargon.

And I like your avatar. One of the great comedies of all time. Peter Boyle's Frankenstein (Fronken-SHTEEN) and Marty Feldman's Igor (EYE-gore) are unforgettable:



Now we have a civil discussion of why you say is doesn't.
OK. You and I look at the same universe, and you see purpose and intent where I don't. I don't say that there was no purposive intelligent designer, just that I can imagine how there is not, which is why I'm an agnostic atheist.
That a simulation indicates specific purpose.
Agreed, but it's a hypothesis, not a fact.
IF by "god" you mean a sentient intention to give purpose to our universe then, yes, much of modern scientific discoveries can be interpreted as evidence of that god...or not.
Yes, by a god I mean specifically a sentient intelligence capable of creating universes.

And I agree that nature is consistent with an intelligent designer, but it is also consistent with a godless reality.
Saying a term like god adds nothing is like saying a term like electron adds nothing to our knowledge of reality.
Disagree. Electrons need a name. The laws of physics don't need to be called a god, and if you do, you invoke associations with a sentient being.
My original question then, to recap, was, why in the light of the fact that we don't know, do you choose to view the universe as not having a purpose?
What I say is that if it has a purpose, it's not apparent to me. Yes, it has organized itself into filaments of galaxies of solar systems comprising the elements, which have since organized to generate life and mind, which might have been by design or not. I just don't feel any need to guess.
I don't have to make the argument since other more qualified individuals have done it for me. I can present their arguments that I agree with and discuss them but I wouldn't be making a new argument.
In this setting, you do need to make the argument, at least in capsule form backed up with a link. If you don't, you're banking on others assuming that there is something to your claim and researching it. I need a reason to begin to do that. In the past, I have. I click on what I call an orphan link - a link not provided to support an argument, but in lieu of one. That's often a waste of time. Often, I find that the one posting the link didn't understand it - it contradicts him - or else, after rebutting its author, he tells me, "That's not the part I meant." So I rarely give unsupported claims or claims supported only by a link much time.

If you have a point that you think is worth making, make it and support it at least enough to make your reader think that you might be on to something.

We've discussed opening hands like yours here before. You have 8 HCPs [high card points] and 1.5 quick tricks. That's not enough for a 1-level suit opening bid. You tend to give yourself a lot of points for length and shortness, but as you can see, that's not enough.

Yes, you have only 5 losers and a Rule of 20 hand. I have game forcing strength if you had had an opening hand, but with that hand, no. This was down 2.

You probably counted your spade void [a hand with no spades] as an asset, but it wasn't. With just a singleton spade, you can finesse once and get 2 spade tricks. With a small doubleton, twice for three spade tricks. With a void in my suit, you get one spade, and you have to ruff a diamond to get there to collect it.

And we've discussed new suits after finding a major suit fit. In a 1S-2S-3H [opener bids 1 spade, his partner responds 2 spades, and then opener bids 3 hearts] auction, 3H is a 4-card suit looking to play in a 4-4 heart fit, which is preferable to a 5-3 spade fit when we have both/ Why? Suppose both suits break 3-2. In hearts you still have a trump in dummy and hand, but in spades, there are no ruffs or endplays possible now, and there is the possibility of getting 1 or 2 discards on the long spades.

The other two situations are game tries (3-level bids) and control bids for hands with slam interest, which is what I assumed you meant with the diamond jump, since 3D there is a game try. The bid denies a club control, which is also not the situation.

It appears that you were showing me a second suit and forcing game, but I hope you understand that even if I read it as a suit, I would consider it a 4 to 5-card suit, and we don't belong in game. You can never show me a 7-card diamond suit if you open 1H, and I don't know why you would bid diamonds naturally after agreeing that hearts are trump. It's not information I can use. I want to know if we belong in a heart game [bidding 10 of 13 possible tricks] or slam [bidding to take twelve or possibly all 13 tricks].

So once we have major suit fit, we don't bid new suits naturally unless the auction begins 1S-2S and you have 4 hearts. Notice that this doesn't apply when we are 5-3 in hearts [one of us has five and the other three] and 4-4 in spades. Those auctions go 1H-1S-2S, and if responder has 3 hearts, he knows about both fits already.

Remember this: Bidding is for the purpose of partners communication and making decisions based on that information. That requires that partners understand what their partner has when he bids, meaning that they need to have agreements and to stick to them. Also, with defense and carding. Every card played tells a story, and it needs to be a true story, or the defense will have problems coordinating their defense.
 
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setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
Oh, I'm familiar with them, none of them are even worth the repeated debunking that can be found by just entering them into the search bar in Google.
Yeah you are...;) Are you here to discuss what you asked me for or is your argument simply to say I'm not worth your time to discuss these things with? I mean you did respond so you must have a little time to explain to me what those debunkers are saying and why it debunks what I've quoted.
After all...and I find this quite amusing at times, anyone on here who doesn't wish to actually engage in an enlightening conversation can simply tell someone to google it to find out why they are right and the other person is automatically wrong. That's a heck of a counterpoint.
How am I supposed to know if you even understand whether or not they have debunked what I've quoted for you...that you requested mind you?
a litany of discoveroid assertions
I don't know why this is a counterpoint?
and ancient god of the gaps arguments
Ancient god of the gaps? First of all these discoveries are modern. Second they aren't gaps. They are discoveries established by science. This is why we need to discuss assertions instead of simply dismissing them. We need to rectify misunderstandings and clarify meaning.
misunderstandings of statements of educated people taken out of context that you have read on the usual creationist websites.
Depends on what website your talking about and what you consider to be a creationist website.
I spend as much time on physics stack and other science sites as I do on religious sites.
You seem to be woefully biased against "creationist websites" as if those words alone are enough to indicate stupidity and ignorance. Perhaps you've only had the unfortunate experience of visiting those sites which present their zealous views over solid reasoning?
Realize though that many of sciences amazing breakthroughs happened because of people who were and are creationists.
I personally could care less if its a creationist website or a hard core atheist one. I'm interested in what either has to say, why, and if its sound reasoning.
Seems like your interested only in insulting those who disagree with you in order to attempt to win an argument instead of having to expend the energy to think on your own two feet about what's being said and why.
I certainly hope what it seems like isn't the actual case here.
Absolutely none of them offer support for the claim that there is some sort of being out there doing these things you imagine.
Well now, that's the discussion we are having isn't it.
I gave you some reasons. Pick one, lets discuss it. How about the specificity of the information found within the DNA molecule and its supporting structures. What's the explanation to that one?
Or how about Penrose's calculations? Or Hawking's deductions?
How to you view those calculations?
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
your whole argument boils down to we don't know how some things happened yet
Its not an argument for existence. Its an argument concerning what's more readily apparent concerning purpose or purposelessness. Using interpretable data.
Ultimately we STILL don't know how anything happens yet. What we do know is experience and speculative calculations concerning why something happened in relation to something else. If we actually knew how things happened we wouldn't have theories. We'd just have facts.
but we can assign some numbers to some possibilities that may or may not be relevant to the subject (ID and evolution) and make some arguments in cosmology more likely to be fruitful than others
Yep...more likely. Isn't that what this discussion is about?
Unless you can show me why or give me some argument indicating why a deliberately purposed universe is not possible then evidence of sentient being somehow directing the creation of the universe with purpose is still in the running according to some modern scientific evidences.
so because you have big numbers then there must be this entity that you already culturally believe in.
No, that's not what I said or am saying. There may not be any specific purpose to the universe. What I did say is that there is scientifically interpretable evidence which seems to indicate a more probable specific purposefulness to this universe. That evidence however says absolutely nothing about a specific "creator" that anyone already culturally believes in.
And by the way...given the nature of our modern era, culture has become quite a bit less of a long term factor in determining what specific "entity" one was taught to believe in will be the same one that one ends up believing in.
The main problem is you have only added another improbable layer to the problem with something more complex with even less evidence.
Not at all. Adding sentience into the mix actually lessens the complexity of the hypothesis.
Processes that develop functional things assembled through specifically directed purposefulness require much less complexity than processes which would develop -if they could- those same functioning things through purposeless coincidentally fortuitous incidents.
Probability adds complexity.
And "even less evidence" is up for discussion.
"Turtles all the way down"
Okay? So you've referenced infinite regress. And?
Before I can comment upon your reference I need to know what you find to be wrong with infinite regress and why you think it is pertinent to our discussion.
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
My point is that people throw "probability" around like candy on Halloween, yet no one is willing to show exactly how they got the numbers they toss around.
Point taken. I've since clarified my sources to rectify my misunderstanding that the arguments would be familiar with others as a starting point for discussion.
The other problem I constantly see with "probability" is the complete opposite of the first problem.
They offer up no specifics.
instead they are fond of words like 'infinitely' 'vastly' 'greatly' etc, without ever offering up a specific number.
Yes, I can see where that would be confusing. I've offered specific probabilities given by Penrose and Myer's for instance. Of course sometimes it is untenable in forums like these to give the specifics of how some scientists came to their conclusions since many of these conclusions have several pages of complex equations behind them.
In such cases the best we can do is acknowledge their peer rated qualifications and offer counterpoints by other peer rated qualified persons in their respective fields of expertise.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Point taken. I've since clarified my sources to rectify my misunderstanding that the arguments would be familiar with others as a starting point for discussion.

Yes, I can see where that would be confusing. I've offered specific probabilities given by Penrose and Myer's for instance. Of course sometimes it is untenable in forums like these to give the specifics of how some scientists came to their conclusions since many of these conclusions have several pages of complex equations behind them.
In such cases the best we can do is acknowledge their peer rated qualifications and offer counterpoints by other peer rated qualified persons in their respective fields of expertise.
Such as Feynman and Einstein commented to the
effect that if you can't explain in layman terms, you
don't really understand it yourself.

Check the contorted obscurantism of our
" philosophers".
 
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