Is there Free Will in Heaven?

[Beaudreaux]

For example, If I get vision about your future and I can see what restaurant you will go tonight, what will you order for dinner and how much you will tip to waiter.
How can you prove that you don't have free will tonight over your choice of restaurant, ordering dinner and tipping or not tipping waiter.

If your knowldege of my future is infallible (like God's is) then I would prove it in the same way I proved it in my last post.

If it is not your free will, who will select restaurant, who will decide order and tip to waiter.

Don't you believe something about God having a plan for everyone's life?

if you will go for dinner alone without me and god, how can you prove it's not free will in this example?

God does not need to go to dinner with me to know my future so, again, I would prove it in the same way I have already proved it.

 

[True Faith]

If your knowldege of my future is infallible (like God's is) then I would prove it in the same way I proved it in my last post.



Don't you believe something about God having a plan for everyone's life?
-Having knowledge and plan or dicision making is two differnt things.


God does not need to go to dinner with me to know my future so, again, I would prove it in the same way I have already proved it.

I conclude discussion because we are running around bush and going nowhere.
Don't you believe something about God having a plan for everyone's life?
-Having knowledge is different than having plan or decision making.
You've misunderstood this subject, you think God has limitations like humans, so, god can't have future knowledge while humans having free will.
You're stuck here in similar type puzzle situation what came first Egg or Chicken.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I conclude discussion because we are running around bush and going nowhere.

And beating around in circles, yes.

-Having knowledge is different than having plan or decision making.
You've misunderstood this subject, you think God has limitations like humans, so, god can't have future knowledge while humans having free will.

My point is not based on God's limitations. It is based on man's limitations and God's lack thereof. Look, I know you don't like the idea but you've pretty much agreed with me already.

You're stuck here in similar type puzzle situation what came first Egg or Chicken.

This is nothing like that puzzle. BTW, evolution shows us that the egg came first.

 

[jonman122]

I conclude discussion because we are running around bush and going nowhere.
Don't you believe something about God having a plan for everyone's life?
-Having knowledge is different than having plan or decision making.
You've misunderstood this subject, you think God has limitations like humans, so, god can't have future knowledge while humans having free will.
You're stuck here in similar type puzzle situation what came first Egg or Chicken.

the reason this is concluded is anyone holding a qur'an LITERALLY doesn't even comprehend what the definition of free will is. They assume that because the qur'an says 'we can have free will and god can know all' that its a logical assertion, or that its somehow true because some man a thousand years ago wrote it in a BOOK, it must be the absolute unquestioning truth and that they somehow stand on the same platform of understanding about the real world as most people do. However they can't grasp simple concepts like what free will could be, for some reason they think that if you have some guy sitting there telling you to do something you don't have free will, but you still have the choice to kick that guy in the balls and suffer the consequences, or run away as fast as you can and escape after the kicking. You always have a choice, even if some big dude is standing in front of you telling you what to do.

BUT if some big guy from another universe knows exactly what your going to do for your entire life from start to finish and can tell you exactly whats going to happen right up until your death if he so wished to, then no, you have literally no free will because what you suggest cant exist together no matter what.

you try and give attributes to allah that you read in a book, you've never seen him or spoken to him or sat with him and had tea, so how can you even say "he's higher in his ways we don't have to understand why he knows everything we are going to do yet gives us free will, thats just what the qur'an says so i'll swallow it up." Because that is essentially what you're saying.

 

[Abulafia]

the reason this is concluded is anyone holding a qur'an LITERALLY doesn't even comprehend what the definition of free will is. They assume that because the qur'an says 'we can have free will and god can know all' that its a logical assertion, or that its somehow true because some man a thousand years ago wrote it in a BOOK, it must be the absolute unquestioning truth and that they somehow stand on the same platform of understanding about the real world as most people do. However they can't grasp simple concepts like what free will could be, for some reason they think that if you have some guy sitting there telling you to do something you don't have free will, but you still have the choice to kick that guy in the balls and suffer the consequences, or run away as fast as you can and escape after the kicking. You always have a choice, even if some big dude is standing in front of you telling you what to do.

BUT if some big guy from another universe knows exactly what your going to do for your entire life from start to finish and can tell you exactly whats going to happen right up until your death if he so wished to, then no, you have literally no free will because what you suggest cant exist together no matter what.

you try and give attributes to allah that you read in a book, you've never seen him or spoken to him or sat with him and had tea, so how can you even say "he's higher in his ways we don't have to understand why he knows everything we are going to do yet gives us free will, thats just what the qur'an says so i'll swallow it up." Because that is essentially what you're saying.

First off, you are leaving out an important factor. If someone knows what you are going to do, and that is the base of the argument, the fulcrum, then you still have free will to make that choice, because he knows it from your cogitation. Because your thought, independent, provides his/her/it's power. However omniscience and omnipotence together form a deadly liaison. Omniscience (Promethean adj. :yes is the ability to know everything, possible, impossible, proabable, etc. when where and how it is going to happen. If all things are known, and the ulitmate creator, the prime mover is aware his ramifications, then he undoubtedly knows and intends for everything to happen as it does. Omniscience as a single attribute convey know hindrance to freewill, or omnipotence (albeit unexcercised towards your venerable free will), unless the entity in question is the prime mover, the maker, because the one who creates and places the dominoes knows and intends their graves. QED.

Secondly, quit demanding proof from your theistic counterparts, the entire premise of RELIGION is built upon faith, ipso facto, the product of the numinously preternatural, unprovable to use a ungrammatical vernacular. They have as much credibility as you do, my friend, for they are attempting to prove a positive, whereas you, a negative, with rather weak inductive reasoning. :sorry1:

Beep-Beep!
:run:

 

[jonman122]

Secondly, quit demanding proof from your theistic counterparts, the entire premise of RELIGION is built upon faith, ipso facto, the product of the numinously preternatural, unprovable to use a ungrammatical vernacular. They have as much credibility as you do, my friend, for they are attempting to prove a positive, whereas you, a negative, with rather weak inductive reasoning. :sorry1:

Beep-Beep!
:run:

well if they have no proof than they literally have nothing to prove in reality. there is no proof god exists, why should i even have to prove a negative? i'm just saying because they say god knows all that they have to understand we can't have free will. But rather than take that logically they read what it says in the qur'an and no matter how intelligent they may be, they make the rediculous claim "well just because he is omnipotent doesn't mean we still don't have a choice" when in fact that is EXACTLY what it means.

and since when does my reasoning have to be even decent to disprove something that hasn't EVER been even close to proven? How can you have faith in something that doesnt exist? Doesn't that just make faith a form of insanity? A mental handicap? They have literally no credibility. how much credibility do you think you'd have if you stormed in to a science classroom and demanded that people teach there are giants roaming the earth that are 30 feet tall and eat people when they misbehave?

i'm sorry but i've seen 12 year olds do better reasoning than what you've done there :\

 

[waitasec]

First off, you are leaving out an important factor. If someone knows what you are going to do, and that is the base of the argument, the fulcrum, then you still have free will to make that choice, because he knows it from your cogitation. Because your thought, independent, provides his/her/it's power. However omniscience and omnipotence together form a deadly liaison. Omniscience (Promethean adj. :yes is the ability to know everything, possible, impossible, proabable, etc. when where and how it is going to happen. If all things are known, and the ulitmate creator, the prime mover is aware his ramifications, then he undoubtedly knows and intends for everything to happen as it does. Omniscience as a single attribute convey know hindrance to freewill, or omnipotence (albeit unexcercised towards your venerable free will), unless the entity in question is the prime mover, the maker, because the one who creates and places the dominoes knows and intends their graves. QED.

Secondly, quit demanding proof from your theistic counterparts, the entire premise of RELIGION is built upon faith, ipso facto, the product of the numinously preternatural, unprovable to use a ungrammatical vernacular. They have as much credibility as you do, my friend, for they are attempting to prove a positive, whereas you, a negative, with rather weak inductive reasoning. :sorry1:

Beep-Beep!
:run:

with this logic, then why all the drama?
why create a world, create the consequence of death,
destroy the world and start all over...
and why play favorites?
laughable really...

 

[Abulafia]

with this logic, then why all the drama?
why create a world, create the consequence of death,
destroy the world and start all over...
and why play favorites?
laughable really...

Theist Answer: To be worshipped and adored.
My Answer: Your an omnipotent entity situated in the void, time, space, etc. do not exist, the answer is not why...it's why not?

 

[waitasec]

Theist Answer: To be worshipped and adored.
My Answer: Your an omnipotent entity situated in the void, time, space, etc. do not exist, the answer is not why...it's why not?

i am not a deity, because i cannot control other people...they posses something called free WILL...neither can your god control anything...he is a figment of your intuition (not imagination)

an exalted version of YOU
you got a lot of verve thinking you have the answers to the unanswerable ... quite laughable indeed

 

[RomCat]

I believe there is free will in Heaven.
After all, you would not be a human being
if there wasn't.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I believe there is free will in Heaven.
After all, you would not be a human being
if there wasn't.

Will people sin in heaven?

 

[Thief]

Will people sin in heaven?

As in denying God?

 

[Beaudreaux]

As in denying God?

As in anything that's a sin. ...you know what sinning is, yes? Will the free-will-having people in heaven sin?

 

[Thief]

As in anything that's a sin. ...you know what sinning is, yes? Will the free-will-having people in heaven sin?

And you heard the story about God and His favored Angel?
You think maybe denial will stand before God....well?

 

[Abulafia]

well if they have no proof than they literally have nothing to prove in reality. there is no proof god exists, why should i even have to prove a negative? i'm just saying because they say god knows all that they have to understand we can't have free will. But rather than take that logically they read what it says in the qur'an and no matter how intelligent they may be, they make the rediculous claim "well just because he is omnipotent doesn't mean we still don't have a choice" when in fact that is EXACTLY what it means.

and since when does my reasoning have to be even decent to disprove something that hasn't EVER been even close to proven? How can you have faith in something that doesnt exist? Doesn't that just make faith a form of insanity? A mental handicap? They have literally no credibility. how much credibility do you think you'd have if you stormed in to a science classroom and demanded that people teach there are giants roaming the earth that are 30 feet tall and eat people when they misbehave?

i'm sorry but i've seen 12 year olds do better reasoning than what you've done there :\

First off...you ignored most of what I said...the apartheid between science and religion is unbreachable, which is why we don't have Brahamas adorning our classrooms in the secular world.....the distinction between secularism and the ecclesiastical is inherent to the function of society....

Second off...the distinction between faith and proof is the very substance of religion, in fact the very definition of faith is "belief that is not based on proof" (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 4th Ed.)....the possibilty that there is a god is just as great as its antithesis, in fact, speaking of sanity, there is a thing called Pascal's wager, and well....erm....in other news.....

That's why I'm agnostic, or at least, lackadaisical :seesaw:

Thirdly, there are giants roaming the Earth, eating the unfortunate miscreats, it's called the IRS, and that, my friend we have proof of....

Fourthly, I'm not debating you on the fallacies of free will, that arise because of an omnipotent and omniscient creator, I just wanted you to know for future reference, that he has to be the prime mover in order to negate free will.....the first cause stems all other causes, the word, which comes secondly, contrary to public opinion, and the thought...I suggest reading "The Power of Words" a piece of underrated theoretical fiction by Edgar Allan Poe....

 

[Abulafia]

i am not a deity, because i cannot control other people...they posses something called free WILL...neither can your god control anything...he is a figment of your intuition (not imagination)

an exalted version of YOU
you got a lot of verve thinking you have the answers to the unanswerable ... quite laughable indeed

That...erm...was kind of the point....:slap:

He was bored, lonely, and did I mention bored. Not everyone is omnipotent, for My Sakes, so he's going to sit in the primordial darkness, and contemplate the darkness, talk to the darkness, and rule the darkness. Sounds delightful.

 

[Abulafia]

Will people sin in heaven?

I believe...that that would be sort of defeating the purpose.

 

[jonman122]

First off...you ignored most of what I said...the apartheid between science and religion is unbreachable, which is why we don't have Brahamas adorning our classrooms in the secular world.....the distinction between secularism and the ecclesiastical is inherent to the function of society....

Second off...the distinction between faith and proof is the very substance of religion, in fact the very definition of faith is "belief that is not based on proof" (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 4th Ed.)....the possibilty that there is a god is just as great as its antithesis, in fact, speaking of sanity, there is a thing called Pascal's wager, and well....erm....in other news.....

That's why I'm agnostic, or at least, lackadaisical :seesaw:

Thirdly, there are giants roaming the Earth, eating the unfortunate miscreats, it's called the IRS, and that, my friend we have proof of....

Fourthly, I'm not debating you on the fallacies of free will, that arise because of an omnipotent and omniscient creator, I just wanted you to know for future reference, that he has to be the prime mover in order to negate free will.....the first cause stems all other causes, the word, which comes secondly, contrary to public opinion, and the thought...I suggest reading "The Power of Words" a piece of underrated theoretical fiction by Edgar Allan Poe....

Pascal's wager is one of the biggest falacies i've seen, and one that i've already shown people is false.

look up "betting on infinity" on youtube, i'm at work and cant provide you with a link for the moment.

You realize there are thousands of different gods? do you honestly you believe there is just 1 god and that you're going to call yourself "agnostic" just so you don't get some kind of eternal punishment from this 1 god that you happen to believe in? Do some research before you come. If there was just 1 god, what are people doing worshipping zues or apollo or thor?

herp a derp durr moment for you there..

 

[Beaudreaux]

As in anything that's a sin. ...you know what sinning is, yes? Will the free-will-having people in heaven sin?

And you heard the story about God and His favored Angel?
You think maybe denial will stand before God....well?

Look...no one loves...your...odd sort of style...more than...I...do. But...just for a...change? How about...just...answering a yes/no...question...with a "yes"...OR..a "no"...before wafting on...in your Kerowakian metaphors...

So, here it is. Since the people in heaven will have free will, will there be sinning in heaven? Please select one of the answers below.

• Yes, there will be sinning in heaven
• No, no one in heaven will sin

Please elaborate on your answer here:

 

[Abulafia]

Pascal's wager is one of the biggest falacies i've seen, and one that i've already shown people is false.

look up "betting on infinity" on youtube, i'm at work and cant provide you with a link for the moment.

You realize there are thousands of different gods? do you honestly you believe there is just 1 god and that you're going to call yourself "agnostic" just so you don't get some kind of eternal punishment from this 1 god that you happen to believe in? Do some research before you come. If there was just 1 god, what are people doing worshipping zues or apollo or thor?

herp a derp durr moment for you there..

Thor, Zeus, Apollo, all polytheistic deities with so many physical/theoretical contradictions that many of the Greek intelligentista were atheists. Or monotheists. :thud:

I liked the underlying metaphor for the vid. I liked how it was clearly represented as a horse race. You place your bet on one of this vast multitude of horses, each differentiating their beliefs...if you choose wrong, your damned. :shout

Ok...hypothetical horse-race. Your the atheist. The rest are theists....fine. You walk up to the bet-collection counter. The man in front of you looks at the list and says "One on Mahound." The other says.."One on Nazarean!" The bet-collecter looks at you..."How 'bout you, son?" You put youre gold (soul, essence, post-life form) on the counter and say "I don't want to bet on any of them." The bet-collecter looks at you oddly.."So youre not betting?" "No. I am betting. Just not on any horses." The bet-collecter glares at you...."Son, you have a 2.1% chance of being right if you place a bet on a horse. You have a 0% chance if you don't. You're waging your entire fortune on this...." You glare at him..."Well, I don't believe any of the horses exist!"

Ok. Makes perfect sense. )(

The part about dividing up the Christians into subsects is also ridiculous. The dissemination of the Church was a human error...whereas respecting the old-testament and Biblical teachings is present in all of them. The quibbling about sacramentals and nomenclatural sin is ludricious. God is referring to his people. That accounts for one major conglomeration.

The refutation of Pascal's wager is as humorous as hell, but whilst it accompanies energetic theme-music, it has more pomp that substance.