Is there Free Will in Heaven?

[jonman122]

Where do you see a problem?

By definition, the problem is, there is no free will in not being able to do whatever you want. it sure sounds nice to be in a place where only good is done, but it's not logical, and it involves free will in no way whatsoever.

free will would be the ability to redevelop those negative feelings you had before you entered heaven, regardless.

 

[Cordoba]

it sure sounds nice to be in a place where only good is done, but it's not logical, and it involves free will in no way whatsoever.

As mentioned the laws of Heaven are different from the laws which govern our lives on earth

For example, our life here is a temporary life, whereas in Heaven it is an eternal life

Free will in Heaven will not be to freedom to choose between good and evil, but the freedom to choose how to enjoy life in Heaven

 

[jonman122]

there isn't multiple interpretations of free will, it is the ability to do whatever you want to do as you see fit, not to be stuck choosing only what is good and how to enjoy what the muslim interpretation of what good would be.

and to be honest, what exactly would you do in heaven that is good? what do you plan to do once you reach heaven? what would you do for eternity?

 

[Cordoba]

Many things

If you like learning, you would discover all the mysteries in our current and past history. You could see all what happened (like how the pyramids were built, as nobody knows till now), ...

I would meet with all family members who passed away, including grandfathers going back many centuries, get to know them and how they lived in the past

You could learn about our amazing universe, find out what is out there and beyond

It would take eternity to learn all that, but there will be plenty of time

But the best of all what is in Heaven is to get to see our Creator.

That is the real pleasure believers will experience in the Hereafter, being near God

 

[jonman122]

Unless your wrong, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster wraps us in his noodly appendages and brings us up in to his heaven full of wenches and beer. But if you do not believe in him, the beer will be warm and the wenches unsatisfactory. Sorry the dissapoint you, but you may be getting bad beer.

That's ok though, i can't wait to be with my noodly creator

^ that is your argument.

 

[Cordoba]

That's you free choice ...

All the best

 

[Thief]

About free will of Man...taken from another thread...I quote myself.

Man was given free will on Day Six.
Go forth..... be fruitful....multiply....partake as you please...
No names....no law....no restrictions....dominate all things....

That's about as free as anything can be.

But this life cannot crossover into the next.
On Day Six....Man was a species...all animal.
Flesh cannot inherit the kingdom....a spiritual life.

Day Seven...God rests...the creation process has stopped.
Man continues to behave like an animal.
Something needed to be done.

THEN Chapter Two.
And therein, God breathes into Adam...a soul.

NEVER have I heard any preacher, priest, minister, or any other man of the cloth...make a proper discussion on this topic.

Typically...too much dogma...not enough thought.

Free will was granted on Day Six.
It has never been removed.

It has been compromised by your fellow man.
One of the many things Man seeks to dominate...would be his fellow man.

 

[Thief]

About the free will of the angelic...from a thread I wrote some time back.....

Man was created a little less than the angelic.

There is a long standing belief that the fall of the angelic..one third of heaven...was brought on by a division....an argument.

God...having made Man...a little less than the angelic...said to the angels...
"Man is fragile...follow after him and see to it, that he dash not his toes...nor his head."

One third of the angelic said "nay".
"For that Man is less than we are... He should be made to serve us."

There is nothing wrong in that logic.
Man does so unto lesser creatures in every way.

We... chain our dogs, and expect their loyalty...keeping to one master...even though it is their nature to run free in packs, and to hunt at will.
We.... saddle and bridle our horses...and expect them to take us wherever we desire...and we break their spirits that they will obey.
We.... cage little birds..that they sing for our pleasure...but the little creature sings for a mate he will never find. There will be no nest...no offspring...and he will die in his solitude.
We...readily kill anything that cannot be made to serve us...any disobedient animal.

A fight broke out. Brother angel against Brother angel.
One third of the angelic fell from grace...losing their positions in heaven.
They lost their place because of an argument...concerning something... that looks like you.

They want you dead.

Two thirds of heaven lost their Brothers because of an argument...concerning something...
that looks like you.

Do you not bear resemblance to the one third fallen?
Do you not perform unto lesser things...and your fellowman ...as you will?

Are you not concerned..what...or who...will be standing over you...
When you lay down to breath your last breathe?

 

[Blackdog22]

God does not enjoy sending anyone to Hell. In fact He wants to send us all to Heaven.

The proof is that He has a place for each single one of us reserved in Heaven

Going back to what happened with Adam, God gave him and Eve all what they needed and commanded them not to eat from one tree. Adam forgot and ate from that tree, and God sent him out of Heaven for this sin.
He misused his free will, and for this Adam was sent to earth where he would struggle for a living. But he repented and God forgave him.

Free will means one can choose between good and evil

If this choice does not exist, how would there be free will?

Yeah I am gonna need some proof to back these statements up. Take your time I got a lifetime to wait.

Wait, so you could repent and be forgiven? So how did Jesus change anything again?

 

[jonman122]

Wait, so you could repent and be forgiven? So how did Jesus change anything again?

exactly, if Jesus died for our sins then why on earth do people still have to repent to get in to heaven? Did Jesus really die for absolutely nothing?

and no matter how interesting this may be, it seems to be the general christian consensus that there will in fact not be true free will in heaven but a kind of illusionary free will where you will have to follow gods command to be good and do only good things.

 

[Cordoba]

Jesus, peace be upon him, did not die for our sins

God saved him from that horrible death on the cross (according to the Qur'an)

God forgives sins directly when a believer repents

He is a Merciful and Forgiving God

 

[Thief]

Jesus, peace be upon him, did not die for our sins

God saved him from that horrible death on the cross (according to the Qur'an)

God forgives sins directly when a believer repents

He is a Merciful and Forgiving God

Lines 1,3, and 4 are correct.

Line two, leads to a debate that doesn't help this thread.

 

[BruceDLimber]

IOV, free will applies here and now, not in the Next Life, for God will control what happens then, as our scriptures explain:

"When they [men] are delivered through the light of faith from the darkness of these vices, and become illuminated with the radiance of the sun of reality, and ennobled with all the virtues, they esteem this the greatest reward, and they know it to be the true paradise. In the same way they consider that the spiritual punishment ... is to be subjected to the world of nature, to be veiled from God, to be brutal and ignorant, to fall into carnal lusts, to be absorbed in animal frailties, to be characterized with dark qualities ... these are the greatest punishments and tortures....

"...The rewards of the other world are the perfections and the peace obtained in the spiritual worlds after leaving this world ... the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity. In the same way the punishments of the other world ... consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of existence. He who is deprived of these divine favours, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.

"The wealth of the other world is nearness to God. Consequently it is certain that those who are near the Divine Court are allowed to intercede, and this intercession is approved by God....

"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice; for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have the power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God.... Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications.

"Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state.... There is no other being higher than a perfect man. But man when he has reached this state can still make progress in perfections but not in state, because there is no state higher than that of a perfect man to which he can transfer himself. He only progresses in the state of humanity, for the human perfections are infinite. Thus however learned a man may be, we can imagine one more learned.

"Hence, as the perfections of humanity are endless, man can also make progress in perfections after leaving this world."
―Some Answered Questions, pp. 260-274 passim.

Best!

Bruce

 

[Deicidal Maniac]

God does not enjoy sending anyone to Hell. In fact He wants to send us all to Heaven.

The proof is that He has a place for each single one of us reserved in Heaven

Going back to what happened with Adam, God gave him and Eve all what they needed and commanded them not to eat from one tree. Adam forgot and ate from that tree, and God sent him out of Heaven for this sin.

He misused his free will, and for this Adam was sent to earth where he would struggle for a living. But he repented and God forgave him.

Free will means one can choose between good and evil

If this choice does not exist, how would there be free will?

You just invalidated your own point.

"Free will means one can choose between good and evil. If this choice does not exist, how would there be free will?"

So which is it? Is free will possible without evil or not? There's apparently no evil in heaven, according to you, so then there's no longer any free will, again according to you.

Being omnipotent, if God really wanted everyone to go to heaven then he would have never allowed evil to exist. Being omniscient, he must have known that the majority of people would end up in hell but he allowed this to happen regardless. You say that God doesn't want anyone to end up in hell, but he's the one predisposing people for evil and then sending them to hell because of the nature he himself created.

Furthermore, if Adam simply forgot about the rule against eating the fruit then isn't that an innocent mistake rather than a sin?

I find your point of view to be very confusing.

 

[ahmed.zafar]

Evil is only at large because Eblaise(Devil) try to take us to the wrong path and we have not seen Allah so people think they can do wrong doings, where as in heaven people will see Allah and there will be no influence of Devil on us. People will have free will otherwise whats the difference between us and Angles???

 

[BruceDLimber]

Evil is only at large because Eblaise(Devil) try to take us to the wrong path.... People will have free will; otherwise what's the difference between us and Angels???

In fact, the Baha'i scriptures assure us that angels are simple PEOPLE who have become completely spiritual!

Further, God is One, Supreme, and has no rival or equal! There is therefore no "devil" out there to get us. And "satan" simply refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.

As to evil, I quote the Baha'i scriptures:


Chapter 74.

THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL

“The true explanation of this subject is very difficult. Know that beings are of two kinds: material and spiritual, those perceptible to the senses and those intellectual.
“Things which are sensible are those which are perceived by the five exterior senses; thus those outward existences which the eyes see are called sensible. Intellectual things are those which have no outward existence but are conceptions of the mind. For example, mind itself is an intellectual thing which has no outward existence. All man's characteristics and qualities form an intellectual existence and are not sensible.
“Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence.
“In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is the want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength.
“Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind—that is, scorpions and serpents are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves. But as the elements of their poison do not agree with our elements—that is to say, as there is antagonism between these different elements, therefore, this antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards themselves they are good.
“The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting.
“Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.”
— 'Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 282-284

Best!

Bruce

 

[Cordoba]

"Free will means one can choose between good and evil. If this choice does not exist, how would there be free will?"

So which is it? Is free will possible without evil or not? There's apparently no evil in heaven, according to you, so then there's no longer any free will, again according to you.

Being omnipotent, if God really wanted everyone to go to heaven then he would have never allowed evil to exist. Being omniscient, he must have known that the majority of people would end up in hell but he allowed this to happen regardless. You say that God doesn't want anyone to end up in hell, but he's the one predisposing people for evil and then sending them to hell because of the nature he himself created.

Furthermore, if Adam simply forgot about the rule against eating the fruit then isn't that an innocent mistake rather than a sin?

Free will in Heaven is a choice between all options which are permissible, as the rules in Heaven are not the same as the rules here on earth. For example, alcohol is prohibited in this life but in Heaven it is permissible.

As for Adam, he forgot God's warning, and was sent astray by Satan

The end result is that he disobeyed God's command not to eat from that tree. But God later showed him how to repent, which he did, and God forgave him

As for God not allowing evil to exist if He wanted all people to go to Heaven, this is the case with angels not human beings. Angels don't sin as they don't have a free will to enable them to sin. This is not the case with human beings. We live on earth, and we do have the choice between belief and disbelief, between good and evil, and each person uses his/her free will in making their own choices in life.

A professor wants all his students to pass the course, but does that mean they are all entitled to pass? Or some deserve to pass and some don't? He gives them a test and those who do well succeed, and those who don't fail the course.

Same here. God wants us all to be in Heaven in the Hereafter, and He has shown us what to do, by sending us His Guidance. Those who want to be in Heaven only need to follow His Guidance

It's a personal free choice

 

[Deicidal Maniac]

A professor wants all his students to pass the course, but does that mean they are all entitled to pass? Or some deserve to pass and some don't? He gives them a test and those who do well succeed, and those who don't fail the course.

Same here. God wants us all to be in Heaven in the Hereafter, and He has shown us what to do, by sending us His Guidance. Those who want to be in Heaven only need to follow His Guidance

It's a personal free choice

If we're using the analogy of a professor wanting his students to pass, then it would be as if God gave the world many different textbooks (holy books) and said that only one contained the correct answers. Which one should we study from? You would say the Qu'ran. A Christian would say the Bible. A Jew, the Torah. A Zoroastrian, the Avesta. A Buddhist, the Tipitaka...etc. You think that it's so obvious that the Qu'ran is the only correct one because you've probably been raised to believe the Qu'ran contains absolute truth or at some point you decided that it is, but what makes you so sure? I've been raised to believe that only the Bible contains truth. Many people have been raised in other religions. How can any of us be expected to pass the exam when we don't even know which textbook to study from? It's not so much a personal free choice as it is a giant guessing game. Why would God make it so confusing for us? If he really wanted us to pass the exam then he would come down here and speak to everybody in the world simultaneously and say "I want you to follow (insert religion here)!"

 

[Hiawoofa]

If we're using the analogy of a professor wanting his students to pass, then it would be as if God gave the world many different textbooks (holy books) and said that only one contained the correct answers. Which one should we study from? You would say the Qu'ran. A Christian would say the Bible. A Jew, the Torah. A Zoroastrian, the Avesta. A Buddhist, the Tipitaka...etc. You think that it's so obvious that the Qu'ran is the only correct one because you've probably been raised to believe the Qu'ran contains absolute truth or at some point you decided that it is, but what makes you so sure? I've been raised to believe that only the Bible contains truth. Many people have been raised in other religions. How can any of us be expected to pass the exam when we don't even know which textbook to study from? It's not so much a personal free choice as it is a giant guessing game. Why would God make it so confusing for us? If he really wanted us to pass the exam then he would come down here and speak to everybody in the world simultaneously and say "I want you to follow (insert religion here)!"

That's my problem. Who's to say one religion is the correct one and one is bogus? What makes one more real than the other? Why would there be more than one book said to be of Holy stature if God wants us all in heaven? What if you choose wrong?

 

[Cordoba]

Muslims believe in earlier divine revelations sent by God before the Qur'an

It is one of the six articles of faith in Islam to believe in the Torah which God sent to Moses, peace be upon him, and the Injeel God sent Jesus, peace be upon him

The faith preached by all God's prophets never changed: it has always been Monotheism: the belief in the One and Only Creator and Sustainer of the universe. What evolved in some aspects was the Divine Law. For example, God prohibited some matters in the Torah for the Jews, which were later made permissible in the Injeel, ... and so on

Think of God's prophets and His Divine Revelations as a chain which complement each other. The Qur'an being God's last preserved Divine Revelation 14 centuries ago (which remains intact and unchanged by man) is His final Guidance to all mankind

To further answer your question which Book to follow, compare then make up your mind

This is the approach of a French surgeon, Dr. Maurice Baucaille, which he documented in his book titled (The Bible, The Qur'an and Science: The Holy Scriptures Examined in the Light of Modern Knowledge).

This is an on-line version of his book:

The Bible, The Qur'an and Science