Is there proof God can not exist?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I posted the following earlier because I would genuinely like to hear what people (atheists, agnostics or deists-of any form) think on this:

OK, I'm interested in any arguments for or against the existence of God made from a 1st and/or 2nd law of thermodynamics perspective. (Gotta be careful there - most Christians do not handle the 2nd law properly. )

However, no one has responded. Let me just add that this is a common argument for the existence of God used in many debates on the matter. Surely someone has some thoughts on it.

I don't think it works either way.

As an argument for the existence of God, it fails by category error: it attempts to assign the attributes of the things in the universe to the universe as a whole.

As an argument against the existence of God (which I haven't actually heard before, but just surmising), it fails because the premises of the second law doesn't apply: if God exists, then the universe is not a closed system.

 

[BadDog]

it would be great if you started you own thread on said topic instead of derailing this one

Uh, OK. Kinda harsh language isn't that? "Derail." I thought that was what this thread was precisely about: Is there proof God can not exist?


The question I asked relates directly to the OP. Certainly as much as the ongoing discussion here. That should have been a "suggestion" rather than expressed in the language you used here. But I'll do just that, though I don't have much time to interact with people now.

BD

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Too funny...

[youtube]qahB7mYhLxs[/youtube]
YouTube - If God Were a Car

 

[Dan4reason]

If you are defining God as the God of the bible, then sure you can. One is that the atonement makes no sense at all. Why would people deserve to be tortured infinitely just for being imperfect? How does killing an innocent person (Jesus) solve the problems of sin? It completely makes no sense.

 

[charles brough]

First of all, if you are referring to a "god" who just sits up there doing nothing, then of course, it could well exist, but what difference would it make? Who cares? But if It is supposed to respond to prayer than it is easy to prove prayer does not work and has actually been proved to be the case in praying for the sick to recover. It doesn't help. Also, the prevelance of war in the world sould seem to be saying that either no one is for peace or that more are praying for war than for peace!

That ought to be enough to justify not even bothering trying to disprove the existence of "god" as well as "Santa Claus" and "the tooth fairy."

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The BB is not matter exploding out into existing space, but matter and space exploding (expanding at a very high rate) together. And since Einstein spoke of the space-time continuum, there was no matter, space or time "before" the BB. Hence, whatever cause there was for the BB must be outside of space, matter and time. Otherwise we must ask what caused that cause... it must be an uncaused cause. Any view of a God-Creator which has Him having a beginning is not scientifically sensible.

It's worth considering that (1) Einstein, like most physicists, did not believe in a creator-god, and (2) conventional BB theory does not say that the universe did not exist before the BB; rather, it says that the nature of spacetime is structured in such a way, that there simply is no such thing as "before" the BB. I.e., BB theory does not necessarily say there was a vacuum sitting around for a time, with no universe in it, and then a universe appeared, as though something caused it to appear.

OK, I'm interested in any arguments for or against the existence of God made from a 1st and/or 2nd law of thermodynamics perspective. (Gotta be careful there - most Christians do not handle the 2nd law properly. )

If God is an entity which can manipulate things in our universe at will -- including creating the embryo of Jesus in the virgin's womb, swapping the atoms of water for the atoms of wine, creating photons of heavenly white light to appear out of nothing, and so forth -- then the existence of God is not compatible with the 1st or 2nd laws of thermodynamics, as well as many other physical laws (conservation of mass, energy, charge). Such a God routinely applies forces to objects, but those objects cannot apply a reaction force back on God (violation of Newton's laws). Such a God can add, or subtract, from the mass-energy of the universe (violation of 1st law). Such a God can miraculously rearrange the atoms in the corpse of Jesus to reanimate him, which would be a truly remarkable violation of the 2nd law (decreasing the entropy of our universe without increasing the entropy of heaven, so there is only a net decrease of entropy). Such a God could raise Jesus bodily into heaven, or organize atoms into the Sun and Earth and Moon -- violating the laws of gravitation.

If God created the universe from nothing, then this also would violate the 1st law (mass-energy appeared from nothing), unless we say that God or heaven is also composed of matter and energy, which was only converted to different forms to create our universe, so the total was conserved during Creation. But now we start entering the realm of saying that God/heaven are not supernatural, but exotic physical objects .... well, if we're going to speculate on exotic physical phenomena, then we have to do physics instead of theology.

 

[McBell]

it must be an uncaused cause.

This is nothing but pure speculation.

So if we try to limit God by the physical world... well, makes no sense. Also, we cannot know anything about anything "before" the BB... there is simply no data available for such. Hence we are merely speculating. Speculations regarding fluctuations in the quantum vacuum are logical speculation without any data to back them up.

Yes, that is all you are doing, speculating.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

There is no scientific experiment or discovery to the best of my knowledge to prove or not of God's existence. There have been plenty through the centuries to test for instance Galileo experiment of falling objects, Newton's decomposition of white light with a glass prism, the relationship with mass and energy with Einstein's famous equation, the structure of DNA by Watson and Crick, Penzias and Wilson's discovery of the microwave background radiation and thousands of other discoveries so numerous I would lose count; but no experiment or discovery as yet to test whether or not a God(s) exists. I choose not be believe in God, but that is only a philosophical stance I take and not a scientific one.

 

[adi2d]

I don't know about proof but the existence of starving children is ,to me, evidence against the "all knowing all loving"god
I couldn't see them and not do anything to help. It seems god has no problem passing them by. Just my two cents worth now its back to popcorn and rootbeer for me

 

[Manahel.Fatima]

I think people are afraid of God existence if they agree on this that GOD exist then they have to follow his orders and that could take their freedom and style of living . Is that true thought.

 

[Caladan]

god may exist or may not exist. but we will all still be doing what we are always doing.
the shopkeeper will open the shop every morning, the politician will go to his office every morning, I'll make my tea every morning , the wife will make her coffee every morning, and I'll meet the same people at the gym an hour later.

 

[waitasec]

I think people are afraid of God existence if they agree on this that GOD exist then they have to follow his orders and that could take their freedom and style of living . Is that true thought.

while reading this, i was overwhelmed with a dizzying sensation...
wonder why?

 

[Willamena]

while reading this, i was overwhelmed with a dizzying sensation...
wonder why?

Hormones.

 

[waitasec]

Hormones.

yeah...i also felt REALLY warm....

 

[Copernicus]

I think people are afraid of God existence if they agree on this that GOD exist then they have to follow his orders and that could take their freedom and style of living . Is that true thought.

That's food for thought. Naturally, God does not deign to give those orders to us directly, and scripture is always subject to different interpretations by people who lack the proper knowledge. Therefore, the orders must come to us with the help of human intermediaries. It is true that this could affect my freedom and style of living, but I must obey God, right?

Now, what kind of person should I go to for instructions on what God wants? Hmm? Let me guess. You?

It is not God that people fear so much as it is people who like to think they represent God. Those are the ones who would most like to take away our freedoms and our style of living.

 

[TheDevilsAdvocate]

There is a lot of similar threads. I want to ask a slightly different question ( I think it is)
I am familiar with the idea that Deity is not necessary. I understand not having proof.
But,
Is there anything that suggests that God is an impossibility?
Is there anything in science that makes it clear that God can not exist and could not have had anything to do with the universe?

Which is why I'm a very skeptical agnostic, and not a strict atheist. Nobody on either side of the aisle can *prove* anything, for or against the existence of a divine being.

 

[logician]

There is a lot of similar threads. I want to ask a slightly different question ( I think it is)
I am familiar with the idea that Deity is not necessary. I understand not having proof.
But,
Is there anything that suggests that God is an impossibility?
Is there anything in science that makes it clear that God can not exist and could not have had anything to do with the universe?

It is easy to prove that most definitions of gods cannot be true. One needs to be specific about what god your are trying to prove exists. The term "god" can encompass almost any kind of belief.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

There's proof for some religious beliefs to not have happened, e.g. the Great Flood.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Do you mean Yahweh or Brahman?

 

[gnomon]

Do you believe in light? You couldn't read this without light. In 1John1:5 it says, "God is light". Science knows that light is energy. God is energy. There are two things in the universe: energy and "information". and information is the conformation of energy.
We got consciousness in finite time. In our brains, consciousness was caused by the capacitance and ectropy of the arising reticular formation of the medulla oblongata, which is simply the interference of information by virtue of the inevitability of orthogonality.
The First Law of Thermodynamics is, "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed". Energy is eternal. Certainly, in eternity it is inevitable that information would cause energy (God) to be conscious. Would you think that God doens't want boredom? That is why He doesn't interfere with free will.
To answer another question, information can be created and destroyed. That is what the Second Law of Thermodynamics says when it says, "In the universe, entropy always increases". The entropy of the universe, at any one time, is the proportion of photons to nucleons, that is, entropy is the extent of polarity cancellation. If we were energy we would never sleep. We are only information.
Information, the conformation of energy? Take a cloth sheet. It represents energy. Wrinkle the sheet. The wrinkles represent information. Pull the sheet out straight, and, "fump", the wrinkles become nonexistent. They "perish". Look in "Roget's Thesaurus", perishing is synonymous with becoming nonexistent.
Such a universal sheet exists on the eighth, ninth, and tenth dimensions; and, it is called the Ricci Curvature. Where there is no Ricci Curvature there is no matter. It says in the Bible, "Only He (God) is immortal"; and, "The soul that sinneth shall die". Crooks have profited on the fear of Plato's immortality of the soul.
There is the "aioniu amartematos", the "aeon of failure", mistranslated into English, "eternal damnation". A Greek professor told me that an "aeon" is only a hundred years. Spirit is matter in bent timespace, and, matter is spirit in flat timespace. Our soul is that portion of our being in the fifth dimensional spheres of bent timespace. Theoretically, -n+n=0, the soul is still perishable information.
A Jehovah's Witness told me, "Eternal punishment is infinite injustice. God in not unjust". By the way, if Jehovah's Witnesses get on your case, just tell them that you want to become nonexistent; and then, they will immediately go away. I am only 99.9990 % sure I can someday become nonexistent.

I don't believe in light, Fivin' 'n Jivin'.