Human logic is limitted by human understanding, as long as humanity does not know everything we cannot assume our logic can understand and explain everything.
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Is there proof God can not exist?
- Thread starter TJ73
- Start date
Human logic is limitted by human understanding, as long as humanity does not know everything we cannot assume our logic can understand and explain everything.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Human logic can't explain everything; This is, bizarrely enough, demonstrable. However, the demonstration also shows that no logic can explain everything while also remaining useful. There are some questions that are inherently unanswerable, no matter the power the logician.
McBell
Unbound
So what "logic" do you propose we mere mortal humans use?
Where Is God
Creator
Bible logic of course. What other logic is there?:angel2:
BadDog
BadDog
Interesting. Assuming that we accept the fact that the universe is expanding, and resulted from a "big bang" type of non-conventional explosion, we can make some conclusions.
The BB is not matter exploding out into existing space, but matter and space exploding (expanding at a very high rate) together. And since Einstein spoke of the space-time continuum, there was no matter, space or time "before" the BB. Hence, whatever cause there was for the BB must be outside of space, matter and time. Otherwise we must ask what caused that cause... it must be an uncaused cause. Any view of a God-Creator which has Him having a beginning is not scientifically sensible.
So if we try to limit God by the physical world... well, makes no sense. Also, we cannot know anything about anything "before" the BB... there is simply no data available for such. Hence we are merely speculating. Speculations regarding fluctuations in the quantum vacuum are logical speculation without any data to back them up.
OK, I'm interested in any arguments for or against the existence of God made from a 1st and/or 2nd law of thermodynamics perspective. (Gotta be careful there - most Christians do not handle the 2nd law properly.
)BD
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BadDog
BadDog
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
You've shot yourself in the foot. A "cause" requires there to be time, hence a cause for the BB is nonsensical.
BadDog
BadDog
BadDog said:
No it doesn't. I see where you're going, but I disagree. That's like saying that I can define God however I like. I did not say anything about the environment "before" the BB. You're taking our present existence and applying it to the quantum flux period - can't do. We know nothing about "before" the BB, so why could it not have cause-effect? There remains a logical, not temporal, cause-effect. That is basic philosophy. For example, Reformed philosophers and Arminian philosophers argue about the ordo salutis - the "order of salvation." But they are referring to a logical order, what leads to what logically precedes what - and what causes what - not one based in time, since many of the components are agreed to essentially be simultaneous.
It's difficult for us humans to think logically outside of time... God sees reality like a man in a helicopter viewing a parade, while we see it float by float. We cannot but think in terms of time, but God by definition is not restricted in any way to time.
Now obviously, if something comes into existence, it must have required an initiator.
What is nonsensical is not having a reason, a cause, for something as incredible as the BB. Personally, I would not be surprised to learn that there may well have been some sort of "time" before the BB, but God is eternal. The Bible says he is from everlasting to everlasting. It says that He inhabits eternity. (Psalm 90:1,2,4; Isaiah 57:15) He's not a super hero, He's God.
BD
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Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
That's an interesting idea, Bob. The most common excuse that I hear is that they feel a lack of good reason to believe in one. Perhaps they are just hiding their true feelings, eh?
McBell
Unbound
Yeah, like one reason for believing in god is that they do not go out killing people.
Yes, you do... implicitly, anyhow. You talk about a "cause" that is "outside of time". IMO, the term "cause" doesn't even have any meaning outside of time.
Maybe it does; maybe it doesn't. But for the cosmological argument to work, you need more than "maybe"; you need the answer to be that cause-effect must exist before the Big Bang. That's what you need to (and IMO can't) demonstrate.
Heh... if God's in a helicopter overtop the parade, it stands to reason that he's not on the lead float.
You're getting into the Kalam argument here.
Your language ("something comes into existence") necessarily refers to time. If you're going to argue that time is a constituent part of the universe - which, IMO, you need to do in order to argue that God can exist "outside of time" - then this "outside of time" realm is also where the universe exists. If this is the case, then you can't require a cause for the universe any more than you can require a cause for God.
Do you really think this makes sense?
Do people pretend that speed traps don't exist because they want to go as fast as they want?
waitasec
Veteran Member
i mean really, did you really say that?
maybe because being accountable to our fellow human being makes more sense... :areyoucra
David M
Well-Known Member
Quite a lot more as there is good evidence that they do exist.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
It would be useful if you would start a new thread thread and present it. Then we can all see how good it is instead of just taking your word for it.
PhAA
Grand Master
Yeah! It doesn't really makes sense. How can you have accountability towards something that you believe doesn't exist? If your suggesting that people your referring to are just denying, or evading, then they're not real Atheists.
David can certainly correct me, but what I got from his post is that there's good evidence that humans exist, and therefore there is more obvious reason to be accountable to people than to God... kinda alluding to the passages in the Gospels where Jesus asks the people something like (quoting from memory): "if you're not willing to love your brother, who is visible, how could you ever be expected to love God, who is unseen?"
waitasec
Veteran Member
do you know what passage you are referring to?
it seems to me that the word "brother" in this context would apply to those who believe as you do...not everyone.
BadDog
BadDog
I posted the following earlier because I would genuinely like to hear what people (atheists, agnostics or deists-of any form) think on this:
OK, I'm interested in any arguments for or against the existence of God made from a 1st and/or 2nd law of thermodynamics perspective. (Gotta be careful there - most Christians do not handle the 2nd law properly. )
However, no one has responded. Let me just add that this is a common argument for the existence of God used in many debates on the matter. Surely someone has some thoughts on it.
Thx much,
BD
OK, I'm interested in any arguments for or against the existence of God made from a 1st and/or 2nd law of thermodynamics perspective. (Gotta be careful there - most Christians do not handle the 2nd law properly.
)However, no one has responded. Let me just add that this is a common argument for the existence of God used in many debates on the matter. Surely someone has some thoughts on it.
Thx much,
BD
outhouse
Atheistically
I posted the following earlier because I would genuinely like to hear what people (atheists, agnostics or deists-of any form) think on this:
OK, I'm interested in any arguments for or against the existence of God made from a 1st and/or 2nd law of thermodynamics perspective. (Gotta be careful there - most Christians do not handle the 2nd law properly.
However, no one has responded. Let me just add that this is a common argument for the existence of God used in many debates on the matter. Surely someone has some thoughts on it.
Thx much,
BD
it would be great if you started you own thread on said topic instead of derailing this one