Of course not.
So what you're saying is "selling" Christianity isn't proselytizing? Do you see how your analogy doesn't support your contention that @Eddi isn't proselytizing in the OP?
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Is this proselytising?
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
Of course not.
So what you're saying is "selling" Christianity isn't proselytizing? Do you see how your analogy doesn't support your contention that @Eddi isn't proselytizing in the OP?
Let's not pull this thread off-topic with abortion.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
Don't see anything wrong with doing that, if people approach you because they are interested in what you might have to say, then I see little difference in that and some person handing out pamphlets for JWs, or as some restaurants do etc. All of this is obviously with the purpose of getting people to do something which they normally wouldn't do or think of doing, if that weren't the case, there would be little reason to do it in the first place.
What you are suggesting of doing, doesn't seem much different than if you made a website with the information and people could go there and read about it, if they wanted. As far as I know, there is nothing illegal or wrong about that, im not sure you are allowed to advertise for it (on the internet), at least I have never seen any religious ads.
Only this part is proselytizing. The rest is being public about your religion, saying what you are, answering questions. To proselytize means to offer to take someone as your student or to offer guidance. Offering to pray with people is borderline, depending on how you pray. Like, when you pray you might give opinions, and that is not the same as a formulaic prayer or meditation.
Is that proselytizing, or just simply advertising? You see the same thing at any county or state fair selling products. That's not considered prosteletizing. The religious group advertizing themselves at a booth, is no more prostelizing then trying to sell you the benefits of a water softener in your home.
However, as proselytizing is defined as this: "The action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another." That is quite different. If they were telling people, "Your religion is wrong, and we alone are the truth and you need to join us or be damned to eternal hell," that is very much proselytizing. If you attempt to target Catholics to deconvert and join your evangelical cult because they need the "true God", that is proselytizing. If you target Hindus to become a Christian in order to be saved, because you tell them Hinduism is worshipping false gods, that is proselytizing.
Having a booth offering prayers as way to reach out to people who don't have a religion, to introduce them to something they feel they might want for themselves, that's just advertising, like a sign on a church door that says, "All are welcome here". It's an invitation, an advertisement. Nothing out of the ordinary or offensive.
I would challenge the idea that any time a religion mentions itself or reaches out to people to advertise what they have to offer, is to be considered as trying to convert them from one religion to another, which is how proselytizing is defined. Proselytizing used incorrectly in that case, is actually just political. It's an inaccurate use of a negative word, essentially saying religious groups should just not talk to anyone or tell anyone about themselves.
You're comparing selling a product for profit to altering someone's opinion or belief structure. Apples and oranges.
What specific group is one targeting when someone sets up a booth such as the one in the OP? Surely, if the intent was to target Christians, there wouldn't be a need for reading material that suggests becoming a part of his religion or religious organization. That literature is intended to convert someone from one's religion, belief, or opinion to his. That's is proselytizing.
If I see a booth advertising a martial arts class, they hand me literature and offer to take me as a student and offer me guidance, is that proselytizing? Are you saying it's not proselytizing if a Karate school does it, but it is if a religion does it?
Would demonstrating the benefits of self defense moves to a prospective student be considered borderline?
what I am saying is that the connotations of "proselytizing" - the hue of "that is horrible" that so many people put on it is.... wrong.
I'm not. Insert any other subject of your liking. It isn't the subject matter I am talking about but the principle.
I never painted it with that hue in this thread. In fact, I made it clear on the first page that I wasn’t condemning it.
If you read me at all on this forum, you’d know not to lump me in with the many.
Not it is not. For profit products or not is irrelevant. You could also be advertizerizing or promoting a peace movement, which is a non profit organization.
Again, this religious booth is advertising, ostensibly, to those who do not have a religion and might want one. That is not trying to convert them from one religion to another, which is what cults that try to tell you your religion is wrong and only theirs is right do.
Those that don't have a religion, or those who are unsatisfied with the one they have. Think about it clearly for a minute. If you were happy with your religion or life in generally, would you go up to someone offering prayers? I wouldn't. Why? Because I'm satisfied.
Advertising targets the dissatisfied. Proselytizing, by contrast, targets the satisfied and tries to convert them away from their religion to another one. That's predatory, That's aggression. Not invitational, like an advertising group is doing, whether they are religion, or some other not-for-profit group. And that, is an apples to apples comparison.
Have you seen the literature? If the literature had pictures of Catholics in hell, saying only Pentecostals are going to heaven, then yes, absolutely that is proselytizing. If it simply shows the someone finding God, and finding happiness when they were unhappy before, that is not proselytizing.
There is a clear difference here. Every group, for-profit or non-profit, has a right to sells their products. But targeting other customers and aggressively attempting to switch brand loyalties, is the very definition of proselytizing. There is a difference.
Let me ask this question. When is a religion advertising itself not considered proselytizing, or is always proselytizing, even a sign on a church door advertising service times and class offerings?
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I apologize... I was speaking generally. Not a specific person.
It's rare for me to agree with you, so I'll make that effort here and say, I do agree.
Casting what may be a simple advertising as proselytizing, just because it is religion doing it, is misleading and unfair.Proselytizing does occur, but that is when it is trying to convert someone from their religion to another, which is what proselytizing is defined as. Simply telling others about yourself, or your group, is not proselytizing. It's just simply advertising, like any group reaching out to the community does, like an AA group, or something.
Yes. It is proselytizing. It is selling your services as a trainer, maybe not a religious trainer but a trainer with students (proselytes). That is my understanding of the meaning.
No, however I'm not talking about RF's rules about proselytizing. On RF if you offer to sell Karate lessons we will call it spam. In the wider world however it is very similar to proselytizing.
Prospective students? Its not borderline. It is proselytizing.
You are misusing the word proselytizing. It does not at all apply. Definition of proselytizing. "
- the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
"no amount of proselytizing was going to change their minds""
You missed the part of your definition that says attempting to convert one's opinion to another. What percentage of people who don't have religion are actively seeking one? How many of the people that happen upon that stall woke up that morning saying, "I hope I find a stall that's 'advertising' their religion?"
Yes. As I said so earlier in the thread, I would go because I'm a curious person and like to engage those of different beliefs in discussion about religion.
Now you're just adding your own spin to the definitions of "advertising" and "proselytizing."
I was quite specific on the nature of the literature in my first post in the thread.
I think you, based on what I know about you, would know that all people do not find happiness in the same place. What makes me happy doesn't necessarily make another happy and visa versa.
Again, you are trying to draw a parallel between two different things. The purpose of the church sign is to provide information to those that are already a member of the congregation. The stall is intended to bring people in that are not a member of a congregation or that religion for that matter.[/QUOTE]
This isn't a difficult question to answer. What are you there for? What would be a good day, and what would be a bad day?
You seem to be a little defensive about the word proselytize. Why don't you want to call what you are doing by that name? That's what the word means. It's a specific type of selling or promoting - the promotion of an ideology. I would do the same if I felt there was value in promoting secular humanism to theists. I have done the same promoting our local bridge club at an annual gathering of people interested in gardening. It's a table with a sign and a volunteer there to promote contract bridge and our bridge club to anybody interested. We believe in the product we offer just as you do, and a good day for us would be to add a few new members for our efforts. If it were an ideology rather than a card game that we were promoting, we would be proselytizing, too.
Why is it wrong to consider proselytizing undesirable? Many people consider organized religion to be a net harm to society, and would do what they could to limit it, including judging those proselytizing as antisocial. I understand that the proselytizing believer thinks he is offering something of value and therefore providing a societal benefit, but many disagree, and are free to express that opinion as I am doing now, even if you consider them wrong for so doing.
It's interesting to see how believers explain all the negativity they experience for their religion. Not surprisingly, it's never the religion responsible for any of it. Yesterday, you explained the skeptic's aversion to religion as being some kind of cognitive dissonance caused by knowing that they are resisting a good god. It's their fault for not being interested in your religion, not that they have no interest in a religion that is unappealing to them because it offers them nothing and seems irrelevant in the 21st century, or that it teaches homophobia, or that it rails against science and promotes faith over reason (which later manifests as vaccine hesitancy and climate denial), or that it is trying to take reproductive freedom from women, or that the church doesn't pay it's fair share of taxes, or that it is steeped in sexual crimes and fraud. It can't be that the religion simply isn't interesting to people that are already content without it, or that they have grounds for disapproving of it.
Now you want to tell people who consider proselytizing undesirable that they're wrong. It can't be you that is wrong, correct? What you do is good, so those that disapprove or resist must be bad, right? Isn't that basically how all resistance to organized religion is framed - we're good, so they must be bad? We're right, so they must be wrong? That's a pretty unappealing aspect of that religion as well.
Or the believer who is frustrated with the skeptic's rejection of their arguments and evidence for gods, and sees it as the skeptic's fault - he is just too picky, doing whatever he can to dishonestly reject a compelling argument because he's rebellious and wants to go on sinning. It's never that the argument simply isn't convincing. It's never a failure of the religion to entice or convince people, or for their rejection and dislike of the religion.
Do you ever think, maybe it's us, not them?
Its possible I'm stretching the meaning, however I still think that offering the literature (about becoming a Christian) is proselytizing but that merely having a stall out there talking to people isn't. I think that it would take more than a few minutes of chat. The exception is if you ask for a commitment, such as a commitment to pray for God to reveal Christianity to you or if you suggest that someone make a decision.
I'm not trying to mess with you. Perhaps I got caught up in the spirit of debate. Karate is not a religion, but karate training is a religious experience.
I could be diminishing the meaning of proselytize, however training someone in karate is akin to training them in a religion. I wouldn't think this about all sports such as bowling. A martial art like karate emphasizes attitude and exercise and often comes with some beliefs from a teacher. It is a transformative and formative process, very difficult like a boot camp sometimes. The teacher advises you, guides you both physically and psychologically. Some would say 'spiritually'. The teacher may even teach you to believe in superstitions and could require it, or they might try to get you involved in some side business of theirs. You train hard in karate, you change in karate, and you train regularly -- religiously. Therefore 'Proselytize' is possible.
Additionally this used to be even more the case when different karate styles competed. People believed in them mystically. That is not so much the case sense Bruce Lee, but they still retain the trappings of religiosity.
If it is a booth offering prayers to those who want them, and offering literature to those interested, those who walk up to them and take them up on the offer most clearly are actively seeking something for themselves. That seems clear.
That's not attempting to convert one's opinion to another. It's purely just sharing what they have to offer to those who are interested in learning more. But if you mean to say, "buy this because you'll be happier than you are now," as fitting "convert one's opinion to another", then you'd have to say all advertising from top to bottom is proselytizing, and it is not. That's stretching the meaning to the point you could say the terms are synonymous with each other, and telling someone why they need your gutter-cleaning services is the same a proselytizing. I cannot accept that as a valid use of the word in that context.
Other than them specifically imagining finding a booth offer prayers, I'd say quite a few are looking for something from somewhere, wherever that may present itself. Do you think that religious membership only comes from other religious groups, that religious membership is a zero sum game, shifting numbers back and forth, with no new fresh blood is coming in from outside?
When I was young, I sought out religion looking for something for myself. In my experience, most new members came in from outside of religion, not from other religions, though they existed as well.
I think you and I are rare exceptions! We're loaded for bear with knowledge about religions, and ours would be more intellectual, than genuinely seeking for meaning from them in our lives. I highly doubt most who would go up there look remotely like the likes of us.
It's not a spin at all. It's the definitions of the words:
Proselytizing
- the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
"no amount of proselytizing was going to change their minds"
describe or draw attention to (a product, service, or event) in a public medium in order to promote sales or attendance.
"a billboard advertising beer"
seek to fill (a vacancy) by putting a notice in a newspaper or other medium.
"for every job we advertise we get a hundred applicants"
Similar: publicize; make public; make known; give publicity to; bill; post; announce; broadcast; proclaim
make (a quality or fact) known."Meryl coughed briefly to advertise her presence"
"a billboard advertising beer"
seek to fill (a vacancy) by putting a notice in a newspaper or other medium.
"for every job we advertise we get a hundred applicants"
Similar: publicize; make public; make known; give publicity to; bill; post; announce; broadcast; proclaim
make (a quality or fact) known."Meryl coughed briefly to advertise her presence"
Is the dictionary "spinning" the words, or are you conflating the terms as synonymous when they are not?
What you said was, "However, if your reading material has any content that suggests that they become a part of your religion or religious organization, then you've crossed the line into proselytizing."
Why is that trying to "convert from one religion to another"? That's just trying sell a product, like selling the idea of joining a non-for-profit peace movement (if you think monetary exchange makes it different from trying to sell water softeners).
Are you saying that if religion tries to sell its product, it's proselytizing? Is a sign on the side of church saying "All are Welcome Here", proselytizing according to you?
Of course. Many paths lead up the side of the mountain, but at the peak we all gaze at the single bright moon, to quote the Zen poet. But having different mountain guides selling their services, is different from proselytizing. If they actively says to customers of another guide, "he's a loser and he'll get you killed! Follow me instead", now that is proselytizing. Otherwise, just selling their services is advertising.
No those signs are not just about the membership. I ride my bike regularly past a church with a sign saying "All are welcome here". That is an open door invitation to others outside the church. Same thing with anything they say about themselves to the public at large.
Do you consider any advertising to the public, beyond just its own membership, to be proselytizing because it is from religion? What is the difference between a church advertising itself, and non-religious community service program advertising itself?
idea
Question Everything
At our school we have proselytizers who set up a booth with pamphlets etc. and stand at the corner every day. Our school also works with local food bank and has food distribution. One of the days I was in charge of distribution I invited the proselytizers to help us, and they refused...(JW's)
Another religious group volunteered to help but only if they could wear shirts advertising their religion. We told them no, that they did not pay for the food, did not organize the event, were just volunteering at it so they could not advertise their group - so they refused to help. They were not actually interested in helping, they were only interested in PR (Mormons)
Most religious organizations are not charity organizations. Prayer helps no one, it is hypocritical - when people put on the airs of being a saint, and do nothing. It is cringe to me when I hear someone say "I'll pray for you", to me that is virtual signaling, pity from someone who thinks they are better than you, a smug response from someone who is happy to hear your troubles because it makes them feel better about themselves.
Our usual volunteers - the ones you can count on, are also those in need of assistance. They are the ones who actually understand the point of it.
Actions speak louder than hollow words.
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