Is this the right way to deal with terrorism?

[Booko]

You mean 1559, right?

Yes, that's the one. Thanks.

Well, a lot of people think that what's going on now is right. After all, Hizbullah started the war, right?

That's why I said "among other things". One of those things was that the Lebanese Army was supposed to be in this area and prevent the rearmament of Hezbollah. The idea that the fragile Lebanese gov't could actually do this is nothing short of ludricous. It's a barely born coalition of various factions, and I remember when they were trying to form it it was a very difficult and trying process. I see no advantage in making unreasonable demands on the gov't of Lebanon that would plunge it once again into civil war.

As for Hezbollah starting the war, it appears to be more complicated than that. However, given resolution 1559, darned if I know why Hezbollah as an *army* should be positioned to fire tens of thousands of missiles at a neighbor that left their territory 6 years ago.

Hold on. Let's have a look at history, shall we? Hizbullah was created after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, not before. So Israel can thank itself for Hizbullah's existance.

And now that Israel has been off their soil for 6 years, their reason for existence is ... what?

Hizbullah succeeded in getting Israel off Lebanese soil. That a bad thing? Israel shouldn't even be in Lebanon in the first place. It's Lebanon, for crying out loud, not Israel.

Hey, I had some severe problems with that occupation, and was glad 6 years ago someone had the idea to leave. Unfortunately, it didn't pan out.

Oh, it *could* have, had the other nations of the world stood up to their responsibilities and helped the Lebanese gov't in ways that would strengthen it's ability to function. But we, lazy wusses that we are, did nothing.

The idea that *any* nation, especially a democratic one, could have an "alternative" army in its borders that is actually stronger than the gov'ts army is, to put it in the nicest terms possible -- absurd.

Now, why did Hizbullah kidnap those two soldiers? We hear it is for a prisoner swap. Amazingly, that's what Hamas was asking for when they kidnapped a soldier themselves. So, we understand that Hizbullah's aim is to release unjustly-held Lebanese citizens (or held without trial - same thing).

I have previously condemned here the idea that any nation should hold people without trial, and specifically mentioned this situation. But you know, there is more than one method to solve such problems, and they don't all involve in lobbing missiles at solely civilian targets.

Also, they believe the Sheb'aa Farms are Lebanese territory, so they would like Israel off of that.

Well guess what, in the eyes of the UN and the world community and pretty much everyone else, Shebaa Farms is a done deal.

If people want to condemn Israel for not abiding by UN resolutions, fine, but you can't then excuse another group that refuses to abide by UN resolutions. Either we all abide by them, or no one need do so.

Then, if Israel shows its kinder side (if it has one), Hizbullah won't aim for total destruction of the state.

The problem is, I simply do not believe this any more than I believe their Iranian masters are remotely interested in anything short of wiping out every member of my religion, whether they are in Iran or anywhere else.

Hezbollah has stated its aim of wiping out not just the state of Israel, but Jews, and violent though they may be, I see no reason to believe they are lying about their intent. Do you know of any?

If they actually present peace instead of violence and take all possible steps possible (outlined above), there is a very high chance that Hizbullah will cease to be a militia. After all, they call themselves a resistance, and if there is nothing to resist against, they lose their reason to exist.

As I mentioned above, afaic they should've ceased to be a militia 6 years ago. Israel left. Let them spend their time doing the other *good* things they do, like help people with food, medical care and education. Let them take part in Lebanese politics *on an even footing* with everyone else. A political party backed up with an army is not "equal" to everyone else.

Israeli Attack Kills Dozens as Rice Postpones Lebanon Trip

The breaking news is that Israel has agreed to a 48-hour cessation of aerial bombardment. That assumes of course that Hezbollah stops firing missles as well.

I hope all parties will do such a thing, so aid can come into the area and so maybe some of the refugees can get out. Not to mention maybe some cooler heads will prevail and start working on a permanent ceasefire.

Anyone in the US who watched the debacle of New Orleans last year understands that many people cannot leave an area even if they want to. I would imagine that in southern Lebanon this is even more the case than in New Orleans.

 

[croak]

But freeing Lebanon is clearly not Hizbullah's goal when they were helped for so long by the Syrians who were also occupying parts of Lebanon.

If Syria decided to help them, they're free to. If someone decides to help you, it doesn't mean you support whatever they do. I don't know Hizbullah's stance on Syria's occupation, so I can't comment on that.

That may be true but it simply isn't good enough. These people need to be brought to justice for the death and suffering they have caused. I can't start murdering people and then say "okay look, Ill stop now as long as you stop being mean to me" and expect to be let off scot free.

So your saying Israel needs to be brought to justice as well? I wholeheartedly agree.

So you're saying Israel should give in to unreasonable terms, just to appease some terrorists?

Returning unjustly-held Lebanese people and leaving Lebanese territory is unreasonable? My my.

 

[croak]

Oh, didn't scroll up far enough.

As for Hezbollah starting the war, it appears to be more complicated than that. However, given resolution 1559, darned if I know why Hezbollah as an *army* should be positioned to fire tens of thousands of missiles at a neighbor that left their territory 6 years ago.

They only started firing missiles when Israel declared war. And oh, Israel has been continuously violating Lebanese airspace. I have heard them time and time again. Once they bombed an area, in fact (this year or last year, I forgot).

And now that Israel has been off their soil for 6 years, their reason for existence is ... what?

They still occupy the Sheb'aa Farms. They violate Lebanese airspace. They hold innocent people captive in possibly inhumane conditions.

The idea that *any* nation, especially a democratic one, could have an "alternative" army in its borders that is actually stronger than the gov'ts army is, to put it in the nicest terms possible -- absurd.

Well, I don't see anyone supporting the Lebanese army.

I have previously condemned here the idea that any nation should hold people without trial, and specifically mentioned this situation. But you know, there is more than one method to solve such problems, and they don't all involve in lobbing missiles at solely civilian targets.

You think Israel isn't bombing Lebanese civilian targets? They've bombed non-Hizbullah targets, even. Kind of makes you wonder if they have any other motives.

Well guess what, in the eyes of the UN and the world community and pretty much everyone else, Shebaa Farms is a done deal.

If people want to condemn Israel for not abiding by UN resolutions, fine, but you can't then excuse another group that refuses to abide by UN resolutions. Either we all abide by them, or no one need do so.

Did we not have a problem with Israel, Hizbullah would see no need to remain as it is, and might disarm. But why hasn't Israel returned occupied land? Any explanations? Maybe because it just doesn't want to. And I see that as a less-valid reason.

The problem is, I simply do not believe this any more than I believe their Iranian masters are remotely interested in anything short of wiping out every member of my religion, whether they are in Iran or anywhere else.

Hezbollah has stated its aim of wiping out not just the state of Israel, but Jews, and violent though they may be, I see no reason to believe they are lying about their intent. Do you know of any?

About the former, I am unsure. I don't know much about Iran, to be frank. Now about wiping out Jews: could you show me when they've said that? I'm quite interested in that. Now about Israel: it was formed over another state, Palestine. I doubt the US would let Native Americans claim the state of Washington, for example, as their own. It's US land, right? Well, Israel did the same, and guess what? Everyone thought that was fine. Except for the people living on the land they wanted. Those people would either be forced out, or live under the government of the invaders with less rights than their Jewish counterparts. And that's basically how Israel came to be. Personally, I am totally against Israel, but not against Jews. Jews can go ahead and live anywhere they want, and live as freely as everyone else. But when some Zionists decide to claim some land as their own... no. Is there any state on Earth that would accept portions of their country being given away to foreigners?

Hmm. I have a slight impression that I wrote something in that paragraph I'm going to regret. Oh well. That happens often.

 

[Ody]

The forums are wacky... you just posted while you were listed as offline...

 

[Ody]

You think Israel isn't bombing Lebanese civilian targets? They've bombed non-Hizbullah targets, even. Kind of makes you wonder if they have any other motives.

Thats a stupid statement, due to the fact that from these areas rockets are fired at innocent civilians, but i guess since its 'Zionists' that are being shot at with rockets
it doesn't matter enough to be nuetralized as a threat.

 

[Ody]

About the former, I am unsure. I don't know much about Iran, to be frank. Now about wiping out Jews: could you show me when they've said that?

Maybe the fact that thier president denys the holocaust ever happened gives us a hint?

In a December 2005 speech, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that the Holocaust was a "fairy tale" that had been promoted to protect Israel, ramping up his rhetoric and triggering a fresh wave of international denunciation. "They have fabricated a legend under the name 'Massacre of the Jews', and they hold it higher than God himself, religion itself and the prophets themselves," he said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_deniers#Ahmadinejad_and_Iran

 

[Ody]

Well, Israel did the same, and guess what? Everyone thought that was fine. Except for the people living on the land they wanted. Those people would either be forced out,

Revisionist history has to end, It's effects are far to dire.

 

[Ody]

They still occupy the Sheb'aa Farms. They violate Lebanese airspace. They hold innocent people captive in possibly inhumane conditions.

I am sorry, but a group that targets indiscrimately civilians, has no reasoning except for blood lust in this day of age.

 

[Booko]

They only started firing missiles when Israel declared war. And oh, Israel has been continuously violating Lebanese airspace. I have heard them time and time again. Once they bombed an area, in fact (this year or last year, I forgot).

Hm. Good point about the airspace. The counterargument I suppose is that Hezbollah fires the odd rocket as well. I know a couple of years ago my neighbors went and spent time with their family in Nasiriyah -- in a bomb shelter.

They still occupy the Sheb'aa Farms. They violate Lebanese airspace. They hold innocent people captive in possibly inhumane conditions.

??? Was I wrong in stating that the UN ruled Shebaa Farms is their territory?

Like I said, I also have concerns about the people they are holding. If they're not innocent, then for goodness' sake charge them and try them. What's the hold up?

Well, I don't see anyone supporting the Lebanese army.

Exactly my point! Where the heck were all of us 6 years ago? Were we so naive as to think that Hezbollah would just lay down their arms and play nice? What motive would they have for doing so? My goodness, their leaders would all have to go out and get a real job. :sarcastic

You think Israel isn't bombing Lebanese civilian targets? They've bombed non-Hizbullah targets, even. Kind of makes you wonder if they have any other motives.

I know they're bombing civilian targets. The question is, are they "intentional" bombing targets that are "only used by civilians."

Hezbollah has much to answer for here too. It's also a war crime to hide among the populace, for the precise reason we are seeing today: civilians get killed in the crossfire. This whole situation, well, I find it utterly disgusting.

Did we not have a problem with Israel, Hizbullah would see no need to remain as it is, and might disarm. But why hasn't Israel returned occupied land? Any explanations? Maybe because it just doesn't want to. And I see that as a less-valid reason.

Again...which occupied land? Hezbollah thinks it's occupied. The rest of the world doesn't seem to think so. Where can I find some more information on this disputed territory, on who else besides Hezbollah and a few nations that support them thinks that the UN messed up in its ruling?

And please, I really don't understand how the way to solve problem about disputed territory could *ever* involve lobbing missles at targets that are *purely civilian*. How could this be so?

About the former, I am unsure. I don't know much about Iran, to be frank.

We've been persecuted in Iran since our beginning in the mid-1800s. We are considered to be heretics by the mullas and ayatollahs there. Some of the most recent info is here:

http://www.bahai.org/persecution/iran

Some history on persecution is here:

http://www.bahai.org/dir/worldwide/persecution

Of course, there are other sources of information besides just a Baha'i source. You can pretty much search on "Baha'i" in online new sites like BBC or whatever and come up with occasional articles.

Now about wiping out Jews: could you show me when they've said that? I'm quite interested in that.

I've heard their leader say so, though obviously it was in translation so I can't verify the accuracy of that. Sheesh, now I will have to start searching for a cite...

Now about Israel: it was formed over another state, Palestine. I doubt the US would let Native Americans claim the state of Washington, for example, as their own. It's US land, right?

Well, I *did* ask for Ontario back, but the Canadians didn't take me very seriously either.

Well, Israel did the same, and guess what? Every under the government of the invaders with less rights than their Jewish counterparts. And that's basically how Israel came to be.

I know, and the history of my country has similar warts. But just so, I make the comparison to the US or Canada not giving back the territory of my ancestors.

At some point in history, there's a status quo that just has to be dealt with as it is. There is no going back. I think that's the point Israel is at. It's a state recognized by almost all of the world, whether the Palestinians like it or not it's not going anywhere.

Just like whether I like it or not, the US and Canada aren't going anywhere. I have to live with the situation at hand and find a way to make the best of it.

Personally, I am totally against Israel, but not against Jews.

I can understand being against a gov't and its policies, but not being against the people who adhere to a religion. They aren't the same.

Jews can go ahead and live anywhere they want, and live as freely as everyone else. But when some Zionists decide to claim some land as their own... no. Is there any state on Earth that would accept portions of their country being given away to foreigners?

You mean like neighboring Doraville, where there's more Spanish and Hmong than English spoken?

No, seriously, I get your point here, and while there is some sense to the idea that Jews, having been through a couple of millenia of persecution that really is over the top, might just need to have a state of their own to rule as they may, there is also the fact that there were people living on the land at the time, and they didn't really have a say in it, did they? Though it should also be pointed out that Zionism dates well back to the 1800s, and in many cases Jews were already there, because they had bought the land they were living on. I really can't say how much of either approach there was.

Believe me, I understand why Palestinians would be ******, even if they had been treated well, which they really haven't in some ways.

But at some point you have to decide that living in a world of hate isn't getting anywhere. This is as true for the Palestinians as the Israelis, I think.

Uh as our American TV counselor guru Dr. Phil would say: How's that workin' for you?

Well, I think it should be pretty obvious by now that what the Israelis and Palestinians have been doing for decades is *not* working for any of them.

Isn't it about time to try something new?

Hmm. I have a slight impression that I wrote something in that paragraph I'm going to regret. Oh well. That happens often.

Haha....me too! btw, love the new signature line and name.

Is changing your name to Paw a way to try and sneak out of having to work with ChristianGirl (now Anade) to make us all cupcakes?

Aha...NOW I understand why the two of you chose this moment to change your names! :biglaugh:

 

[greatcalgarian]

what are Frubals ?
I'm confused

Frubals is the appreciation of the forum members who consider your posting is of superior quality, and deserved a praise. You have 519 frubals currently. I am going to give frubals to you, which is 60 frubals, and you should be getting 579 soon. If other people think your posts are good, you will keep collecting more frubals.

 

[greatcalgarian]

I haven't voted, and I would no more do so than answer questions like "Have you stopped beating your wife?" or answer the push-poll questionairres sent out by political parties.

The fact that there are so many views, some responses, and so few voters should tell you something about the way you worded the poll in the first place, GC.

I feel good about this post, I feel it stimulates different views, and the voting is telling me the feel of the members of this forum. Refusing to vote is your right, just like you can refuse to exercise your voting right in choosing your government, and that is what many people did. Kept complaining about the government and never did any positive action by voting comes election time. Voting on this thread of course is of no importance in comparison to the voting in election. However, refusing to vote for the reason you stated simply may be taken as your bias view regarding the poster or the poster's view all along. You should provide positive improvement, by suggesting changing the statement of the vote, or state your prefered statement, that would be a positive move. By just debating and not providing positive constructive suggestion is not helpful.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Sorry . I don't work for frubals .


If there is a true victim in this , and I believe there is , it is the people of Lebanon .

I am not asking for you to work for frubals. If you have participated in this thread and your view is most appreciated.

I am encouraging forum member to vote, because I know there are a large number who just read and did not present their view, and I would like to know what is the view of majority of the forum members in this issue.

Since you do not work for frubals, I am going to give you frubals just to annoy you.

 

[TashaN]

The hate will be much larger now. The whole world must know this fact.

hizbollah almost won just because they survived plus attacking Israeli cities while Israel is helpless toward these attacks in the northern of Israel.

Thanks.

 

[Jon]

hizbollah almost won just because they survived plus attacking Israeli cities while Israel is helpless toward these attacks in the northern of Israel.

Thanks.

It always makes me feel....well....kinda sick, when someone says that Hizbollah almost won, or is winning by the targeting of Israeli cities.Yet be so upset at Israel when Lebanon's city's are targeted. I guess Jewish kids are ok to target but not Lebanese kids.
The targeting of any city is a shame! Both sides need to stop.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That is the only part of your post that I question AE . The whole idea behind democracy is that people have different " interests ". What makes American interest more inportant then others ?

Now , reacting to an attack upon " home soil " , like the World Trade Center , is defense of your home soil . But attacks on " American interest " on other's home soil .... it would appear that there is likely a conflict of interest before that attack happened , wouldn't it ?

An attack on American interest would be civilian trade - like ships - being attacked in international waters, or civilian companies on foreign soil being attacked by other foreign powers. You bet we're going to retaliate when our citizens are being attacked. It's no different than being attacked on our own soil.

BTW as far as the poll goes , I can't reply because in my opinion , Israel's actions will only create more freedom fighters . And perhaps turn more of the world's opinion agaisnt her . It will change things , but I don't think for the better .

It's a lose - lose situation. Terrorists fight for their objective. If a country resists and the original terrorists fail, more terrorists are encouged to fight in the name of their cause. If the terrorist is successful - like now when Israel prepares to trade prisoners with Hizbullah - terrorists are encouraged to stike again in the name of their success.

I'm all for finding the losers and killing as many as possible and make our best effort to break their will to fight via death, ecomonic starvation, and any other weapon that we can use. If they cannot be lured with prosperity and success, and still have the will to fight, we should find them and fight them and win, and preserve their resources to use them against anyone else who has the fortitide to pick up their weapons.

A secondary goal would be to try to educate the next generation to be successful.

 

[TashaN]

It always makes me feel....well....kinda sick, when someone says that Hizbollah almost won, or is winning by the targeting of Israeli cities.Yet be so upset at Israel when Lebanon's city's are targeted. I guess Jewish kids are ok to target but not Lebanese kids.
The targeting of any city is a shame! Both sides need to stop.

What i meant was that Hizbollah itself will feel as a winner but i didn't say that i support their attacks against kids, my friend.

We all must work to make sure that civilians wouldn't be damaged or harmed.

Peace is the best way to live, O human beings.

Peace and blessing,

The Truth ..