Is this the simplest and strongest argument of all for not believing in religions?

[Quintessence]

Then you should change your thread title. It says "...for not believing in religions". It doesn't say "...for not believing in Abrahamic religions".

C'mon, didn't you get the memo? Whenever people say "religion" in the West, they really mean the dominant contemporary Western religions: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. And not the crazy mystic sects of these that do away with dogma, holy books, and organization. Just the traditional sects of those religions. Everything else isn't really religion, ya dig? It's "spirituality."

:run:

(also, regular users can't change thread titles once they've been made)

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

C'mon, didn't you get the memo? Whenever people say "religion" in the West, they really mean the dominant contemporary Western religions: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. And not the crazy mystic sects of these that do away with dogma, holy books, and organization. Just the traditional sects of those religions. Everything else isn't really religion, ya dig? It's "spirituality."

:run:

(also, regular users can't change thread titles once they've been made)

Oh, I know. I'm just tired of all the other religions being marginalized.

 

[suzy smith]

Then you should change your thread title. It says "...for not believing in religions". It doesn't say "...for not believing in Abrahamic religions".

No pleasing some people.....Kiss

 

[Quintessence]

Oh, I know. I'm just tired of all the other religions being marginalized.

Oh, I hear ya. For better or worse, what little religious education people get in my country tends to model itself around the monotheisms and frames understanding all of religion through that lens.

But speaking of mystical sects of the Abrahamic faiths, the problem posed in the OP isn't a problem for them. They do communicate with the one-god directly. And are often considered heretics for it by the more institutional forms of those religions. It's not about humans believing in these religions, but humans believing in the authority of other humans. Which, humans being social animals, should not come as too much of a surprise. Authority is intrinsic to how we operate, and it helps secure our survival (on the flip side, it can also be abused and occasionally maladaptive).

 

[idav]

Oh, I hear ya. For better or worse, what little religious education people get in my country tends to model itself around the monotheisms and frames understanding all of religion through that lens.

But speaking of mystical sects of the Abrahamic faiths, the problem posed in the OP isn't a problem for them. They do communicate with the one-god directly. And are often considered heretics for it by the more institutional forms of those religions. It's not about humans believing in these religions, but humans believing in the authority of other humans. Which, humans being social animals, should not come as too much of a surprise. Authority is intrinsic to how we operate, and it helps secure our survival (on the flip side, it can also be abused and occasionally maladaptive).

I was having a coversation with my better half a couple nights ago and when god came up, it really took some doing to get passed the idea of a creator of earth and she kept saying its evolution. Then eventually she finally gave the usual "well then why call it god". I was actually kinda taken back but it was a deep consersation due to bad news plaguing the media. There is no solution to explain some of the stuff one hears and hard to act like it doesnt exist or its mere illusion.

 

[A grumpy old troll]

Gotta remember that the Christian narrative of who God is isn't the only one out there.

Agreed, also gotta remember that the Christian narrative of who God is isn't in the Bible.



Hey guys, how do you quote someone with the posters name in it?

 

[Quintessence]

Hey guys, how do you quote someone with the posters name in it?

Below the person's post that you want to quote, there's a little icon that looks like this:

Click it, and it'll automatically include the name as well as a redirect to the post (the little >> arrow-things).

Alternatively, you can do it manually by going

 

[indepth thinker]

If the God of the bible or the Quran was all powerful then he would have no need whatsoever for prophets. He would just contact us directly and save all the misunderstanding we have today about religion. This makes even more sense now as all he needs is our email address.
But if religion is man made then self proclaimed prophets would be inevitable. You would expect nothing else.
So what do we find? Lots and lots of prophets throughout history claiming to be from [their] God.
I came to this forum because I am fascinated my mans ability to believe in religion.

Or am I missing something here?

There is a great deal of the story of Jesus missing from you as well as Christians who have yet to know God or experience word of God Via the spirit of God, Yet claim to preach God's word from a book that is missing the spirit of truth.

Below is an ancient recording of Prophecy from the mouth of Jesus. Much of what is presented below, is missing from Christian Cannon, yet explains why Christians will fail to answer your questions adequately.

And Jesus said unto them, Ye have heard what men in the world say concerning me, but whom do ye say that I am? Peter rose up with Andrew his brother and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, who descendeth from heaven and dwelleth in the hearts of them who believe and obey unto righteousness. And the rest rose up and said, each after his own manner, These words are true, so we believe. And Jesus answered them saying, Blessed are ye my twelve who believe, for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto you, but the spirit of God which dwelleth in you. I indeed am the way, the Truth and the Life; and the Truth understandeth all things. All truth is in God, and I bear witness unto the truth. I am the true Rock, and on this Rock do I build my Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it, and out of this Rock shall flow rivers of living water to give life to the peoples of the earth. Ye are my chosen twelve. In me, the Head and and Corner stone, are the twelve foundations of my house builded on the rock, and on you in me shall my Church be built, and in truth and righteousness shall my Church be established. And ye shall sit on twelve thrones and send forth light and truth to all the twelve tribes of Israel after the Spirit, and I will be with you, even unto the end of the world. But there shall arise after you, men of perverse minds who shall through ignorance or through craft, suppress many things which I have spoken unto you, and lay to me things which I never taught, sowing tares among the good wheat which I have given you to sow in the world. Then shall the truth of God endure the contradiction of sinners, for thus it hath been, and thus it will be. But the time cometh when the things which they have hidden shall be revealed and made known, and the truth shall make free those which were bound. One is your Master, all ye are brethren, and one is not greater than another in the place which I have given unto you, for ye have one Master, even Christ, who is over you and with you and in you, and there is no inequality among my twelve, or their fellows. All are equally near unto me. Strive ye not therefore for the first place, for ye are all first, because ye are the foundation stones and pillars of the Church, built on the truth which is in me and in you, and the truth and the law shall ye establish for all, as shall be given unto you.Verily when ye and your fellows agree together touching anything in my Name, I am
in the midst of you and with you. Woe is the time when the spirit of the world entereth into the Church, and my doctrines and precepts are made void through the corruption of men and of women. Woe is the world when the Light is hidden. Woe is the world when these things shall be.

When Christians come out of the spiritual darkness described in this prophecy, then and only then will they be able to answer your question with credibility!

Blessings!

 

[Penumbra]

Wow saint_frankenstein! Way to ignore what I said.
I was aiming my comment at the God of the Bible and the Quran as is clearly seen in my thread and a later comment.

Your thread title is, "Is this the simplest and strongest argument for all for not believing in religions?" (emphasis mine) and then the original post itself specifically targeted Christianity and Islam rather than religions and general, as the title implied.

It's an important distinction because a lot of western atheists seem to equate "religion" with "Abrahamic religions" and ignore all other forms of religious expression on the planet, which makes their arguments look sort of amateurish.

So it's a fair thing for him to point out, and if you want your wording and your arguments to be precise, you'll heed it.

If the God of the bible or the Quran was all powerful then he would have no need whatsoever for prophets. He would just contact us directly and save all the misunderstanding we have today about religion. This makes even more sense now as all he needs is our email address.
But if religion is man made then self proclaimed prophets would be inevitable. You would expect nothing else.
So what do we find? Lots and lots of prophets throughout history claiming to be from [their] God.
I came to this forum because I am fascinated my mans ability to believe in religion.

Or am I missing something here?

If we're talking about religions in general rather than some subset of religions, I think the simplest argument for not believing in most religions is the lack of evidence for various specific religious claims. In the critical marketplace of ideas, a claim is simply a speculative hypothesis among infinite hypotheses until there's substantial and superior evidence in favor of it over its competitors.

 

[suzy smith]

Your thread title is, "Is this the simplest and strongest argument for all for not believing in religions?" (emphasis mine) and then the original post itself specifically targeted Christianity and Islam rather than religions and general, as the title implied.

It's an important distinction because a lot of western atheists seem to equate "religion" with "Abrahamic religions" and ignore all other forms of religious expression on the planet, which makes their arguments look sort of amateurish.

So it's a fair thing for him to point out, and if you want your wording and your arguments to be precise, you'll heed it.


If we're talking about religions in general rather than some subset of religions, I think the simplest argument for not believing in most religions is the lack of evidence for various specific religious claims. In the critical marketplace of ideas, a claim is simply a speculative hypothesis among infinite hypotheses until there's substantial and superior evidence in favor of it over its competitors.

Thank you for the advice. I will do better next time

 

[nazz]

No pleasing some people.....Kiss

It's not about pleasing people. It's about clarity and intellectual honesty. You'll keep getting these types of responses if you stick to this tact. It's really prejudicial when you come right down to it. Like "some white people do this therefore all white people are bad". There are many people here who are religious/spiritual who have issues with the Abrahamic faiths. You'll just keep alienating them if you keep equating religion with that narrow definition.

ETA: I see you got the message and say you will try to do better.

 

[LuisDantas]

If the God of the bible or the Quran was all powerful then he would have no need whatsoever for prophets. He would just contact us directly and save all the misunderstanding we have today about religion. This makes even more sense now as all he needs is our email address.
But if religion is man made then self proclaimed prophets would be inevitable. You would expect nothing else.
So what do we find? Lots and lots of prophets throughout history claiming to be from [their] God.
I came to this forum because I am fascinated my mans ability to believe in religion.

Or am I missing something here?

A few. One is that people don't believe in religions because they are acting logically. Logically, perpetual doubt about what is religiously valid would be unavoidable.

Another is that religion is often explicitly man-made. That is only a problem if one wants to perceive it is somehow wrong (which I don't think anyone should).

For that matter, religion does not have to be theistic either - and IMO it should in fact make an effort not to be theistic.

 

[suzy smith]

It's not about pleasing people. It's about clarity and intellectual honesty. You'll keep getting these types of responses if you stick to this tact. It's really prejudicial when you come right down to it. Like "some white people do this therefore all white people are bad". There are many people here who are religious/spiritual who have issues with the Abrahamic faiths. You'll just keep alienating them if you keep equating religion with that narrow definition.

ETA: I see you got the message and say you will try to do better.

I got the message and after apologizing from the bottom of my heart what else do I need to do here?
I will never make a tongue in cheek comment again or try be anything but deadly serious from now on.
Hope that's O.K.?

 

[freethinker44]

If the God of the bible or the Quran was all powerful then he would have no need whatsoever for prophets. He would just contact us directly and save all the misunderstanding we have today about religion.

For me, this argument, while not being the sole argument against a personal, omnipotent god, is strong evidence against it. It's definitely something that would need to be addressed before I accepted belief. If god was omnipotent and wanted me to believe in it, it would be impossible to deny. Faith would be completely irrelevant, if an all-powerful god wants you to know about it, you know about it. There would be no reading between the lines, no metaphors or interpreting ancient writings needed, it would simply be glaringly obvious to all.

 

[Caladan]

It's not about pleasing people. It's about clarity and intellectual honesty. You'll keep getting these types of responses if you stick to this tact. It's really prejudicial when you come right down to it. Like "some white people do this therefore all white people are bad". There are many people here who are religious/spiritual who have issues with the Abrahamic faiths. You'll just keep alienating them if you keep equating religion with that narrow definition.

ETA: I see you got the message and say you will try to do better.

The irony... Too painful.

 

[Caladan]

C'mon, didn't you get the memo? Whenever people say "religion" in the West, they really mean the dominant contemporary Western religions: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. And not the crazy mystic sects of these that do away with dogma, holy books, and organization. Just the traditional sects of those religions. Everything else isn't really religion, ya dig? It's "spirituality."

I'm not going to speak for the Muslim members, but what do RF (or people in general) know about Judaism? Christianity is the dominant religion in their landscape. Obviously members don't know enough if they defined all three religions as Western. Christianity has a long history in the East, Islam is a dominant religion in the Middle East, and while most Jews in North America and Europe may be western, not all Jews in the world are. At least in Israel it is a fusion of Western, Eastern European, Mid Eastern, Mediterranean, Iberian and Maghreb culture.

 

[nazz]

I got the message and after apologizing from the bottom of my heart what else do I need to do here?
I will never make a tongue in cheek comment again or try be anything but deadly serious from now on.
Hope that's O.K.?

No worries. One of the problems with a site like this is making a response before reading all the way through. There is no need to apologize or be deadly serious either.

 

[nazz]

The irony... Too painful.

Sorry, I don't understand your comment

 

[chinu]

If the God of the bible or the Quran was all powerful then he would have no need whatsoever for prophets. He would just contact us directly and save all the misunderstanding we have today about religion. This makes even more sense now as all he needs is our email address.

You are getting something wrong, rather than saving all the misunderstanding he's more interested in putting misunderstandings because he isn't interested in ending the game which he has started.

 

[Sunstone]

If the God of the bible or the Quran was all powerful then he would have no need whatsoever for prophets. He would just contact us directly and save all the misunderstanding we have today about religion. This makes even more sense now as all he needs is our email address.
But if religion is man made then self proclaimed prophets would be inevitable. You would expect nothing else.
So what do we find? Lots and lots of prophets throughout history claiming to be from [their] God.
I came to this forum because I am fascinated my mans ability to believe in religion.

Or am I missing something here?

Assuming there was a god, does anything make you think that god would be interested in revealing itself to humans?