Is Trump Still Proud of Shutting Down the Government?

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The Democrats now are simply too staunchly opposed to an effective border security barrier system.

The Democrats are not opposed to border security. They are opposed to Trump shutting down government, and marrying reopening it to a demand that the Democrats approve funding his wall, which they have a duty to oppose if they feel that it is a bad plan and a misuse of public funds.

The Democrats don't exist to meet Trumps demands. I hope that they hold firm to their de facto position that there will be no discussion of anything until Trump releases his American hostages.

I'd like to see continuing resolutions to reopen the government for a few weeks while negotiations take place in Congress regarding the funding of an effective border security barrier system

Trump behaves as if he believes that anything other than making the Democrats kneel and capitulate to his imperial whim in full is a loss for him. If so, he won't be negotiating any reopening of government without his demands being met. I predict that if the Democrats hold firm, he will eventually have to do just that - give the Democrats what they demanded with no promised concessions in return. That will be a huge embarrassment for him in the eyes of his base, not to mention being seen as a betrayal.

All the Democrats need do is just keep repeating that there will be no discussion of any other topic until Trump reopens government, emphasizing all the while that the ball is in his court, and make him own this shutdown.

as a last resort, a national emergency should be declared by the POTUS.

Most pundits agree that that would be a huge mistake for Trump and set a bad precedent as well. There is no emergency.

So now they feel abandoned by both sides of the government with no one actually trying to get them paid.

They have been abandoned by Trump and McConnell, who have the power to reopen government. The Democrats do not. Even if they gave Trump everything he demands, the Democrats can't reopen the government themselves or they already would have. The Democrats are insisting that government be reopened and that these workers be paid immediately.

Were you aware that when Schumer asked Trump, ‘Why won't you open the government and stop hurting people? Trump replied “…because then you won’t give me what I want.”

I think it's pretty clear what's going on here, who wants this shutdown, and why.

I find it hard to see much good in either side right now.

The Democrats are trying to get the government reopened. Trump and the Republicans are not. They are trying to get a wall built that most of America doesn't want, and holding government workers, their families, and every citizen dependent on increasingly unavailable necessary services hostage for a $5 billion ransom. There is only one side responsible for this shutdown.

Trump has a likely pathological need to declare that he is "winning" at very available moment.

I agree. He'll lose this one and call it a win.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm sure the sky is falling with the fed shut down. Ohh, wait, it's been shut down for awhile... I'm haven't noticed.

Some will notice it more than others.
(I have to fly in March. This could be trouble if gov is still down.)
But that's a misleading way to gauge the costs of this hiatus.
As I've said before, the shutdown costs around $5B/month in
eventual efforts to bring gov back up to speed. So we've now
reached a point where funding the "wall" would've been cheaper
than opposing it. I say the better approach for Dems would be
to negotiate an efficiently designed wall system. Trump should've
addressed this opportunity. But people is dumb, eh.

In talking to real world liberals I know, the consensus is that it's
not about money...it's about stopping Trump for 2 reasons...
1) Success would embolden him to want his way in other areas.
2) The wall is immoral & racist.
I don't think these reasons are cromulent. They also ignore the
financial cost, damage done (eg, to national parks), & financial
stress imposed upon unpaid workers.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So now they feel abandoned by both sides of the government with no one actually trying to get them paid.

But the Democratic House has been doing exactly that.

...or are you only counting it as "trying to get them paid" if they concede to Trump on the wall?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I say the better approach for Dems would be to negotiate an efficiently designed wall system.

That would be the better approach for Trump.

The better approach for the Democrats is to sit tight and insist that Trump give up on his unpopular wall boondoggle and reopen the government. The longer Trump holds out and the Democrats' resolve remains firm, the more Trump will damage himself and his party.

As I've said before, the shutdown costs around $5B/month in
eventual efforts to bring gov back up to speed. So we've now reached a point where funding the "wall" would've been cheaper
than opposing it.

Then perhaps Trump should relent and reopen government. The call is his.

The Democrats couldn't buy this kind of political gain at any price. $5 billion a month is a deal at twice that amount, especially since liberals won't be footing the entire bill.

In talking to real world liberals I know, the consensus is that it's
not about money...it's about stopping Trump for 2 reasons...1) Success would embolden him to want his way in other areas. 2) The wall is immoral & racist. I don't think these reasons are cromulent. They also ignore the financial cost, damage done (eg, to national parks), & financial stress imposed upon unpaid workers.

Beside having solid, financially sound reasons for opposing Trump on this matter, there's likely a political motive for the Democrats - there certainly is if they are viewing matters as I suggested they be viewed - and by now, personal motives as well. I imagine that Democrats (and the media and the intelligence community) are tired of being treated so shabbily by Trump, and that many want to humiliate Trump with his base.

I notice the media being more willing to use derogatory language about Trump, especially CNN. That's what one can expect following Trump's abusive language and his antics such as suspending Jim Acosta's press pass. Expect blow back when you treat people as badly as Trump does.

 

[Revoltingest]

The better approach for the Democrats is to sit tight and insist that Trump give up on his unpopular wall boondoggle and reopen the government. The longer Trump holds out and the Democrats' resolve remains firm, the more Trump will damage himself and his party.

Considering the financial & other costs of the shutdown,
how long would you say the Dems should keep gov closed
if Trump refuses to budge?

Then perhaps Trump should relent and reopen government. The call is his.

I agree.
But the Dems also have the ability to immediately end the shutdown.

The Democrats couldn't buy this kind of political gain at any price. $5 billion a month is a deal at twice that amount, especially since liberals won't be footing the entire bill.



Beside having solid, financially sound reasons for opposing Trump on this matter, there's likely a political motive for the Democrats - there certainly is if they are viewing matters as I suggested they be viewed - and by now, personal motives as well. I imagine that Democrats (and the media and the intelligence community) are tired of being treated so shabbily by Trump, and that many want to humiliate Trump with his base.

I notice the media being more willing to use derogatory language about Trump, especially CNN. That's what one can expect following Trump's abusive language and his antics such as suspending Jim Acosta's press pass. Expect blow back when you treat people as badly as Trump does.

So anger at Trump is driving opposition to the "wall"?
Oh, dear.

 

[LuisDantas]

@Revoltingest , one can hardly expect the Democrats to see any sense in giving in to Trump's stubborness for no good reason.

It is not like they have not renounced enough already in recent years... or like the Republicans have not exploited their good will relentlessly and cowardly.

 

[Revoltingest]

@Revoltingest , one can hardly expect the Democrats to see any sense in giving in to Trump's stubborness for no good reason.

But one can hope that they'd see the sense in the larger picture.
Neither side should try to win at all cost.

It is not like they have not renounced enough already in recent years... or like the Republicans have not exploited their good will relentlessly and cowardly.

It sounds like you favor Democrats continuing the shutdown
as long as Trump does in the spirit of revenge? There are
deleterious effects which can far exceed the wall's cost.

 

[Mindmaster]

In talking to real world liberals I know, the consensus is that it's
not about money...it's about stopping Trump for 2 reasons...
1) Success would embolden him to want his way in other areas.
2) The wall is immoral & racist.
I don't think these reasons are cromulent. They also ignore the
financial cost, damage done (eg, to national parks), & financial
stress imposed upon unpaid workers.

Your points about the shutdown costing more than paying for the wall are certainly sensible, As far as the wall leading to Trump having a success, it's not "Trump's wall", the bills to erect a new wall have been passed and signed since 2006. However, Congress has refused to fund those efforts, so there is the sticker.

Generally, most Democrats (except for these new whacky extreme left type) were behind the wall as well in the past. I find it hard to believe that these sentiments have drastically changed in the last ten years or so.

The shake, or what's left of this is -- the Republicans are willing to destroy the country to win, and the Democrats are as well. It's more who should you hate more than who to like. If this was not the case, we'd be working in a different direction in the governmental sense -- AKA, the Democrats would work with the President to accomplish his success -- but, he should do the same. This whole "obstructing the other party so they can do nothing, even the things we need" philosophy is ridiculous, perilous, and ultimately flies in the face of what civil servants, at their core, should be doing.They fail to realize that he who comes up with the great ideas gets credit, even if he's not the one doing the work to implement them or the one who approves/votes in/etc the improvements.

So, if you ask me... I have no use for the Democrats or Republicans on this basis, they're not working for our ultimate good if you keep that amount of information in perspective.

How does unchecked and unlimited immigration keep wages reasonable? Wages are controlled largely by the supply of workers -- high supply, low wages. High demand (low workers total) = higher pay. We should have cancelled H1B, DACA, and all of the rest if the concern was preserving the living standard of Americans. We really don't need a single immigrant, legal or not, for any reason. Of course, I don't say this out of hate or anything, but we are fortunate enough to have the talent pool within our nations borders to deal with anything already. Our primary motivation (and really the only one that matters) to allow someone to immigrate is, "do they make us better somehow", if the answer isn't a clear, "yes", then we shouldn't have anything to do with it. Other countries have similar standards for that reason, and remember you're only as good as your "people", as a country.

How do we stop criminal elements from south of the border if we neither fund manpower or create a defensible choke point via a strong border fence? You can solve it either way, but the wall is cheaper than paying pensions for workers over time, since maintenance is cheaper than salary.

If any branch of government succeeds (regardless of who is in power) are Americans doing better off? Are we served by constant squabbling and partisan antics? If Republicans are in control we get a little more column A, and B, and when the Democrats are in control we get a little more C and D, but after some analysis we probably need A,B,C, and D in some quantity. Whether we get one of the four first or last, in the end is irrelevant, so long as we get it when we need it.

In my experience, most Democrats and Republican (die-hards) are low information voters in different ways. Democrats is mathematically low-info, generally don't know when their position costs more than "going along" with some idea that conflicts with their need to feel-good about themselves natures. (Essentially, it's selfishness to an excessive degree...) Republicans are more likely to be driven by moral or social panics, but generally understand the economics better -- though typically fear changes that would actually be more profitable, if at odds with something they believe in. (Except here the impetus is all the people they claim to worry about, the "children", the "future", etc.I have no use for either, both are equally useless for the same reason. Neither is focused on dealing with our problems now, or anything outside of their bubbles.

 

[LuisDantas]

But one can hope that they'd see the sense in the larger picture.
Neither side should try to win at all cost.

It seems to me that they are seeing the larger picture just fine, for that very reason.

It sounds like you favor Democrats continuing the shutdown
as long as Trump does in the spirit of revenge? There are
deleterious effects which can far exceed the wall's cost.

You call it revenge, I call it containing madness and enforcing the much neglected power of being check and balance.

 

[Revoltingest]

It seems to me that they are seeing the larger picture just fine, for that very reason.

Too bad that their "larger picture" allows so much damage to the country.

You call it revenge, I call it containing madness and enforcing the much neglected power of being check and balance.

When both sides are anger driven, they
make bad decisions for the rest of us.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Too bad that their "larger picture" allows so much damage to the country.

Too bad you have a president who'd rather cause damage to your country rather than not get what he wants.

Or, not too bad, because that should have been obvious years ago.

 

[Revoltingest]

Too bad you have a president who'd rather cause damage to your country rather than not get what he wants.

We have 2 sides playing this game of chicken.

 

[LuisDantas]

Too bad that their "larger picture" allows so much damage to the country.

All the more reason not to enable further abuse, don't you think?

Trump challenged the Dems to be his hostages. It is only fair that they refuse.

Actually, it was about time already.

When both sides are anger driven, they
make bad decisions for the rest of us.

You tell me. I have not forgotten Merrick Garland... whose nomination was already quite the concession to begin with.

 

[LuisDantas]

We have 2 sides playing this game of chicken.

You know the two magic words, right?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

We have 2 sides playing this game of chicken.

Except Donald Trump has already assumed full responsibility for the shutdown:

SOURCE:

Also, the shutdown started while the Republican party still had control of both houses. But, hey, let's ignore facts and "spread" the blame because identifying the actual source of a problem is less important than protecting a lying, racist fascist you accidentally gave the presidential seat to. Because then people might have to start owning up to it.

 

[Mindmaster]

Also, the shutdown started while the Republican party still had control of both houses. But, hey, let's ignore facts and "spread" the blame because identifying the actual source of a problem is less important than protecting a lying, racist fascist you accidentally gave the presidential seat to. Because then people might have to start owning up to it.

You had a point, which was quickly lost in hyperbole.

I can go along with a lot of negative statements about Trump -- rich, a bit arrogant, difficult to deal with, etc. But, lie? I've never known him to intentionally do so. At least he admits he's shutting down the government and why he feels it's important to, Schumer just did it because the Dems felt like being dicks that day.

Secondly, that racist nonsense just puts you over the deep end on the bleeding heart left. It's completely unfounded, and nonsensical. Trump was a life long, nearly, Democrat until the last decade. How did he magically become racist now versus then? It's utter rubbish that you think that way, and speaks more of you than him, lol.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

but he did make a campaign promise I feel he intents to keep in someway.

Care to count how many he has broken? He said he was OK with cannabis, but then appointed Jeff Sessions, said transgender people would be OK under his presidency but then he tries to make it so the CDC can't even use the word transgender, he's continued military actions, he moved to ban bump stocks, US hasn't left NATO, Mexico is not going to pay for the wall, and Trump has even signed-and-flopped on trade agreements he signed.
And gauging by the wind of his supporters, I don't think they are very hopeful anymore Trump will get the wall (Ann Coulter especially seems to be losing patients).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If Congress fails in its duty to appropriate funding for an effective border security barrier system, then as a last resort, a national emergency should be declared by the POTUS.

Border Patrol doesn't even want a wall, but rather 21st century technology that will enable them to actually perform surveillance on the boarder with a degree of efficiency.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But, lie? I've never known him to intentionally do so.

He seems to have started on day 1 by inflating the size of his inauguration crowd. He hasn't stopped lying since.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Considering the financial & other costs of the shutdown, how long would you say the Dems should keep gov closed if Trump refuses to budge?

The Democrats aren't keeping government closed. That's Trump's and now McConnell's doing.

the Dems also have the ability to immediately end the shutdown.

The Democrats didn't shut government down, and they don't have the power to reopen it even if they cave to Trump. They would have to take Trump at his word that he would do that, which seems like a poor plan given how dishonest he is.

So anger at Trump is driving opposition to the "wall"?

That's not what I said. What I said is that there are sound financial and political reasons to resist Trump, and probably personal reasons as well by now for opposing funding Trump's wall. Trump is intensely despised by millions of people.

Neither side should try to win at all cost.

I think that that ship has sailed. The Republicans have been deploying a scorched earth approach to the Democrats for decades now. The Republicans should be viewed as enemies, not the loyal opposition. The Democrats owe their constituents intense obstructionism of all ideas Republican, and to make a concerted effort effort at making Trump a one-term president. (Sound familiar?). That can begin with refusing Trump now, and dragging the lot of them into damaging, embarrassing congressional hearings that expose their crimes. The Republicans need to be shown that there are consequences to their behavior.

It sounds like you favor Democrats continuing the shutdown as long as Trump does in the spirit of revenge?

The Democrats are not continuing the shutdown. That's Trump and the Republicans.

And what's wrong with revenge? It's certainly deserved.

the Democrats would work with the President to accomplish his success -- but, he should do the same. This whole "obstructing the other party so they can do nothing, even the things we need" philosophy is ridiculous, perilous, and ultimately flies in the face of what civil servants, at their core, should be doing

Perhaps, but the Republican's chose that path in the Obama years, and made no effort to hide what they were up to and why. If conservatives were concerned about turnabout, perhaps they should have thought of that earlier.

There is no realistic expectation that the Republicans or Trump will ever be civil to liberals or the Democrats as a matter of choice, so they need to be treated as people that cannot be worked with - like terrorists. You don't reach out to such people. You contain them.