Is Trump Still Proud of Shutting Down the Government?

[Mindmaster]

But both are generally distinguished through racial features. To justify any and all rhetoric towards those groups without acknowledging that such rhetoric can (and often does) have racial connotations is missing the whole picture.

My point was, you can have rhetoric against Mexico and Muslims with not even approaching the racial angle. If anything, conflating it with racism immediately is just a reflection on the listeners own biases in the matter and completely ignoring the nuances. Anyway, hiding behind your "race card" doesn't exclude you from being called out or dealt with due to your stupidity. And, there's certainly a lot going on in that regard in relation to Mexico.

And, it's not "missing the picture", it's "disregarding irrelevant information". For example, there are at least 5 major racial groups in Mexico and very few Mexicans are purely this or that. To take it as a racial angle is as nonsensical as taking that tack with Americans. (Which, ironically largely composes of six racial groups, aka nearly the same.) So, the racial narrative is bull**** because Mexicans aren't one race. It's like your commenting on something about China's human rights abuses, and suddenly the fact that they're Asian matters to the discussion -- it doesn't.

Distinguishing people via racial features doesn't make you racist either, you're just not blind, lol. What makes you a racist is deciding not to give them a job, treat them like ****, or otherwise because they're not the right color. But, pretending like there are no physical or cultural differences just makes you an idiot.

Religions all generally started in the Middle East, this is not an argument.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

My point was, you can have rhetoric against Mexico and Muslims with not even approaching the racial angle. If anything, conflating it with racism immediately is just a reflection on the listeners own biases in the matter and completely ignoring the nuances.

But it also doesn't rule out racial elements in what has been and is being said regarding the issue. Protecting white supremacists and repeating their talking points is a pretty good indication that one is, at the very least, racist.

Anyway, hiding behind your "race card" doesn't exclude you from being called out or dealt with due to your stupidity. And, there's certainly a lot going on in that regard in relation to Mexico.

And, it's not "missing the picture", it's "disregarding irrelevant information".

Because being racist is irrelevant in regards to the rhetoric used against minority groups?

For example, there are at least 5 major racial groups in Mexico and very few Mexicans are purely this or that. To take it as a racial angle is as nonsensical as taking that tack with Americans. (Which, ironically largely composes of six racial groups, aka nearly the same.)

Except racial profiling exists, and his tirades against those groups are often based on those prejudices. Which is why attacks against people who "appear" racially Hispanic is far, far higher than attacks against people who come from Mexico but don't fit that form of racial profiling. When you make sweeping generalizations about an entire group, it's convenient if the electorate have an image in their mind of what that group "looks like" - it's the first strategy you employ as a fascist; generate fear, mistrust and hatred towards a particular group in order to scapegoat them into the cause of a generalized, societal evil.

So, the racial narrative is bull**** because Mexicans aren't one race. It's like your commenting on something about China's human rights abuses, and suddenly the fact that they're Asian matters to the discussion -- it doesn't.

Except it does matter, because racial profiling and othering of minorities is a problem, and the increase in Trump's rhetoric against minority groups coincides with increases in racially-motivated attacks against those groups as well as the emboldening of explicitly religious viewpoints, such as white nationalism. Have you never stopped to wonder why it is that actual white nationalists and actual Nazis seem to speak so highly of Trump? It's because his rhetoric is seen as providing justification for their explicitly racist ideology, and if your words can do that, perhaps it is time to reconsider what you are saying carefully.

Distinguishing people via racial features doesn't make you racist either, you're just not blind, lol. What makes you a racist is deciding not to give them a job, treat them like ****, or otherwise because they're not the right color.

Something that is happening right now, a lot.

But, pretending like there are no physical or cultural differences just makes you an idiot.

Nobody said that.

Religions all generally started in the Middle East, this is not an argument.

What does that have to do with anything? A individual's race is used as an identifier of that individual belonging to a particular religion, because people create an association between race and religion, and it is this very association which racists play off of in order to justify their behaviour towards minorities and further generate greater disassociation between one group and another. To completely ignore that there is a racial element to this whole discussion is beyond ignorant, it's outright delusional.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Yeah, it's that whole: "Two wrongs don't make a right."

When somebody fires at you, you are entitled to return fire.

you're just playing the blame game here with the Republicans

Trump has already accepted all of the blame. I agree with him. He is to blame. Most of America sees it that way as well.

either party can immediately decide to take the high road

The Democrats are taking the high road. They are telling Trump no. That is the correct decision. A wall is foolish.

Besides, Trump promised that he would make the Mexicans pay for the wall, not Americans. I'm beginning to suspect that that was a lie.

Worse, their retardation has infected the general population as well, and those people think they're fair, right, and sensible. Hint: They're not.

I don't expect liberals to take moral guidance from those that support Trump. I expect them to decide for themselves what is in their best interest.

I think it's important to know here that the Border Patrol is just trying to do their damn job. If they ask for 5 billion to do it no one else is more qualified to make that assessment.

The Democrats agreed to much more than that. Trump refused.

It's like only his opinion man, that's not necessarily a lie.

Did it come out of Trump's mouth? Of course it's a lie.

Five key Senate Democrats have entirely flip-flopped on the issue of a border security barrier system and these Senators have failed to explain why they now are against the same type of border security barrier system that they supported when they voted for the Secure Fence Act of 2006.

The Democrats never approved what Trump is now demanding, and hopefully, never will.

President Trump offered to help reopen the government, if the Democrats and their leaders Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer would negotiate in good faith for a border security barrier; unfortunately, they told the President they are now adamantly opposed to any funding whatsoever for a border security barrier system which they had previously supported

The answer was no. Open the government first with no string attached or suffer the political fallout for keeping the nation hostage.Why is it assumed that Trump makes all governmental decisions unilaterally? He doesn't. No means no.

The Democrats are obviously playing Partisan Politics to embarrass and humiliate the POTUS

Perhaps, but that is their job. They were elected on a mandate to stop Trump. I completely support their present position and hope that they hold firm to it.

It wouldn't be so easy to embarrass Trump had he not played his hand so foolishly. He painted himself into this corner all by himself, unless you include the sage advice of people like Coulter and Hannity.

 

[metis]

So, the racial narrative is bull**** because Mexicans aren't one race.

The modern use of the word "racist" no longer is just applied to what some may call "race", and even the word "race" itself is dubious.

Trump has a long history of bigotry against certain groups, as did his father, and this is reflected in so many of his words and actions.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The country is losing because neither side will give in.

The country is losing because Trump is holding it hostage in order to coerce the Democrats to accede to his imperial will. He's admitted as much. When Schumer asked Trump, “Why won't you open the government and stop hurting people?” Trump replied "because then you won’t give me what I want.” That's Trump telling you that he is willing to hurt those people to get what he wants.

the financial gain of not giving Trump the money is now lost.

I consider this money well spent. The Democrats are watching Trump self-destruct. How much is that worth to liberal America?

Your argument here seems more about disliking Republicans, especially Trump.

That's a given. You seem to imply that that is inappropriate, or that such an attitude shouldn't be a factor in decision making. Trump is despicable in the eyes of millions. There's a price to paid for being so despised by so many.

On a related note, my wife and I just listed a property for sale, and didn't choose our real estate agent friend to represent us. Why? She's too abrasive. She offends people easily. We didn't want to be represented by such a person for obvious reasons. America has a similar problem with its abrasive president.

Merrick Garland was another administration. And his situation shouldn't mean that we must endure a continued shutdown while Trump & the Democrats fail to approve spending.

Memories are long.

And yes, America must endure a continued shutdown of its government until its president decides to stop hurting Americans. It's part of the price of being an American these days - you know, what with America being made great again and people winning so much that they'll get tired of winning.

Many people saw through that canard and refused to vote for an obviously corrupt man, but those people share a nation with almost as many others who did vote for Trump, and there is a price to be paid now for that. If there wasn't, there would have been no need to issue warnings about Trump before the election. If there wasn't a price to paid, in what sense would it be meaningful to say that Trump was a mistake?

Of course, it's possible that the American electorate is not entirely to blame for Trump, who was, after all, Putin's choice. Shppouldn't that have been warning enough? Isn't Trump doing exactly what Putin would want him to do in an effort to sow chaos and discord throughout America and cause its citizens to lose confidence in its institutions?

If Democrats want revenge against earlier Republican antics, this is a heinous way to exact it.

You're still putting this on the Democrats? How many times have we seen some type of call from conservatives posting on these threads for Democrats to relent? A few hundred by now. And how many conservatives have suggested that Trump relent and release his hostages? I don't remember reading it once.

Does this justify the Dems scorching the country now?

The Democrats are justified in scorching Trump and the Republicans, which benefits the country.

Are you admitting that Dems are keeping gov shut as revenge?

The Democrats are not keeping government shut. Trump is. He told us so.

This all sounds like justification to keep government shut for political advantage over both Trump & Republicans.

Trump is keeping government shut, and he's given his reason. He wants a wall. The answer was no, reopen government and discussions can proceed thereafter. Trump refused, and that's where America is today. The ball is in Trump's court.

 

[Revoltingest]

And yes, America must endure a continued shutdown of its government until its president decides to stop hurting Americans. It's part of the price of being an American these days - you know, what with America being made great again and people winning so much that they'll get tired of winning.

This sounds like advocating that Democrats keep government
shut down no matter how long it takes to stop Trump. Do you
see any limit....2 months....6 months....1 year...before our losses
are so great that they might concede a measly $5B for the wall?

Btw, I blame both Democrats and Trump because each has the
power to end this. They both choose not to.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

This sounds like advocating that Democrats keep government shut down no matter how long it takes to stop Trump. Do you see any limit....2 months....6 months....1 year...before our losses are so great that they might concede a measly $5B for the wall?

I've already told you repeatedly that the Democrats did not shut down government and can't reopen it even if they give Trump what he wants.

And yes, I advocate that the Democrats remain firm in their resolve. If Trump chooses to punish America, then America will be punished until it has had enough and turns against Trump and the Republicans helping him. I see that as a huge political win for the left.

The other benefit I see is the one I posted earlier about re-educating the American electorate as to what their government does for them. How much is that worth? It undermines the continual disinformation coming from conservative indoctrination sources about the government being the enemy. Trump and the Republicans are the enemy. That should become very easy to see if this goes on for several more months. Imagine trying to claim that government is the enemy after a painful and costly loss of government services.

I blame both Democrats and Trump because each has the power to end this. They both choose not to.

I blame Trump, and now, McConnell, who has refused to let the Senate vote on reopening the government because Trump wants to continue his shutdown. The Democrats have no power to reopen government, and no duty to kneel at Trump's command that they fund his boondoggle wall.

This is how the majority of the nation will view this matter. The longer that it takes Trump and the Republicans to realize what a huge tactical error they have made, the more damage will have been done to them when the people finally rise up and demand that Trump reopen government. It's a ticking bomb. The Democrats only need to remain firm for however long Trump chooses to continue damaging America and Americans.

When you've had enough, what are you going to call for - the Democrats to give Trump a wall in the hope that he keeps his word and reopens government in exchange, or for Trump to reopen government immediately knowing that the Democrats will never agree to a wall?

Are you aware that after holding steadily at about 40% for over a year that included tariff wars that cost many Americans income, and a roller coaster of a stock market, Trumps approval rating has recently fallen by about 5%, most of that being whites without college diplomas. That's Trump's base feeling the influence of the shutdown on themselves or people close to them, and expressing their disapproval. What's that worth to the Democrats? These are the very people that need to be educated in what government does for them, or in this case, isn't doing for them. What's that worth to the people who already know better?

 

[Revoltingest]

I've already told you repeatedly that the Democrats did not shut down government and can't reopen it even if they give Trump what he wants.

Are you specifically claiming that if Trump won't allow
re-funding of government even if his demand is met?
How is this known?
What do you think he really wants?

 

[metis]

The Democrats are not keeping government shut. Trump is. He told us so.

And so is McConnell as he refuses to allow up or down separate votes on "the Wall" and on the shutdown.

They have taken the Republican Party on a long walk off a short pier, so maybe this will shake up the party enough to rid themselves of that crew and the Republican cowards who bow to the Autocrat-In-Chief's every demand, and then begin to reformat the party back to basic sanity and common decency in or by 2020.

 

[Nous]

President Trump offered to help reopen the government, if the Democrats and their leaders Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer would negotiate in good faith for a border security barrier;

If Trump actually said that, then wtf did he mean? He wants the other side to "negotiate in good faith" when he's not going to? He says one thing one minute and something else the next! Congress negotiated in good faith with Pence, and they reached a deal. Trump rejected it!! What was wrong with that good faith negotiation?

 

[Subduction Zone]

If Trump actually said that, then wtf did he mean? He wants the other side to "negotiate in good faith" when he's not going to? He says one thing one minute and something else the next! Congress negotiated in good faith with Pence, and they reached a deal. Trump rejected it!! What was wrong with that good faith negotiation?

Let me translate Trumpese for you. For the other side to "negotiate in good faith" they would need to give Trump everything that he demands and then some.

So as soon as the come to their senses Democrats go against the wishes of the U.S. as a whole and kiss Trump's "trump" we can go back to normal. Until then the government is held hostage.

 

[Nous]

Anyway, there is a Secure Fence Act, since that was passed it seems reasonable to ask for the funds to be allocated.

The Secure Fence Act was funded, and the fence itself is maintained at great cost, despite studies showing it to be ineffective or otherwise lacking evidence of effectiveness.

 

[Mindmaster]

The modern use of the word "racist" no longer is just applied to what some may call "race", and even the word "race" itself is dubious.

Trump has a long history of bigotry against certain groups, as did his father, and this is reflected in so many of his words and actions.

Yes, that's the case if you suffer from brain damage. I don't, lol. Though, admittedly, "race" is a construct in and of itself. Everyone is a mutt.

It's more of the case of, "everyone I don't like is a bigot". Call me bored, it's just name calling on the level of kids stuff. "Buut but but but Trump", no, "no you".

Anyone stewing the racist narrative is complete human piece of trash, bottom line. It's not been an issue for over 50 years, and while there are still some racial differences and cultural differences which cause tensions we turned that page a long time ago. If someone still thinks that some significant problem we need to deal with they're ignorant and delusional. That being said, socio-economic differences are a helluva nut to crack, that haven't really been dealt with. You won't be denied anything in this country because of your color, only because you're a dick, a criminal, lazy, or whatever. People need to stop blaming others, including Trump, for their problems and admit most of their difficulties in life originate with themselves.

 

[Mindmaster]

The Secure Fence Act was funded, and the fence itself is maintained at great cost, despite studies showing it to be ineffective or otherwise lacking evidence of effectiveness.

This is not what I've heard, from what I know the money was never allocated.

 

[Nous]

Let me translate Trumpese for you. For the other side to "negotiate in good faith" they would need to give Trump everything that he demands and then some.

So as soon as the come to their senses Democrats go against the wishes of the U.S. as a whole and kiss Trump's "trump" we can go back to normal. Until then the government is held hostage.

Apparently your explanation here is correct. Nothing is too irrational for a Trump sycophant.

 

[Salvador]

If Trump actually said that, then wtf did he mean? He wants the other side to "negotiate in good faith" when he's not going to? He says one thing one minute and something else the next! Congress negotiated in good faith with Pence, and they reached a deal. Trump rejected it!! What was wrong with that good faith negotiation?

The Democrats offered only a quarter fraction of what is needed for funding a border security barrier; if they were to get serious about a compromise, they'd offer half the funding this year of what is needed , and offer half the funding into next year of what is needed for extending border fencing a few hundred miles. This is the perfect compromise position. Spreading out the $5.7 billion of spending for border fencing, $2.8 billion this year and $2.9 billion next year. The Democrats need to show they are serious now about securing our nation's southern border rather than just playing around with partisan party politics.

 

[Nous]

This is not what I've heard, from what I know the money was never allocated.

The how did the provisions get funded?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Democrats offered only a quarter fraction of what is needed for funding a border security barrier; if they were to get serious about a compromise, they'd offer half of what is needed this year, and offer half of what is needed next year for extending border fencing a few hundred miles. This is the perfect compromise position. Spreading out the $5.7 billion of spending for border fencing, $2.8 billion this year and $2.9 billion next year. The Democrats need to show they are serious about securing our nation's southern border rather than just playing around with partisan party politics.

Trump already showed that he was not willing to compromise at all:

Trump Walks Out of Meeting After Democrats Refuse Border Wall Funding

Meanwhile he is not only hurting countless government workers (I wonder who they will be voting for in the next election?) he is also harming people that rely on those services. Now one must get to the airport even earlier since unpaid employees do tend to get "sick" more often than those that are paid.

 

[Nous]

The Democrats offered only a quarter fraction of what is needed for funding a border security barrier; if they were to get serious about a compromise, they'd offer half the funding this year of what is needed , and offer half the funding into next year of what is needed for extending border fencing a few hundred miles. This is the perfect compromise position. Spreading out the $5.7 billion of spending for border fencing, $2.8 billion this year and $2.9 billion next year. The Democrats need to show they are serious now about securing our nation's southern border rather than just playing around with partisan party politics.

So you agree that Trump has not negotiated in good faith on anything?

 

[Salvador]

Trump already showed that he was not willing to compromise at all:

Trump Walks Out of Meeting After Democrats Refuse Border Wall Funding

Meanwhile he is not only hurting countless government workers (I wonder who they will be voting for in the next election?) he is also harming people that rely on those services. Now one must get to the airport even earlier since unpaid employees do tend to get "sick" more often than those that are paid.

There's a Congressional bill in the works in order to help out unpaid government workers by preventing their creditors or landlords from taking legal action against them for unpaid rent, mortgages or loans. If this bill passes, there'd be less urgency to end the partial government shutdown until Democrats come to their senses about providing funding that border patrol agents and border law enforcement agents would like to be invested in a border security barrier for making their jobs easier and safer.