Is "Uncle Tom" a Racist Term?

[Kilgore Trout]

I see it as disparaging a person because of his race.
Even if the entire race isn't dissed, it still smells like racism.

I tend to define words and phrase according to what they mean and how they're used, not what they smell like.

 

[Falvlun]

That you think the term "Uncle Tom" is disparaging an entire race somehow, whereas I see see it as an insult to one person.

It is an insult to one person... based on his race.

I don't think you need to disparage an entire race in order for something to be racist. For example, my grandma distinguishes between "N-word" black people and regular black people. Her usage of the N-word is no less racist for the fact that she doesn't use it to refer to all black people.

Limiting or criticizing someone's actions based on their race would be racism too. "Uncle Tom" is often an internal sort of racism, in that it is used by people within a race to out others of the same race. It's meant to shame them from doing stuff, for fear of being considered an Uncle Tom.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It is an insult to one person... based on his race.

No, based on his actions.

I don't think you need to disparage an entire race in order for something to be racist. For example, my grandma distinguishes between "N-word" black people and regular black people. Her usage of the N-word is no less racist for the fact that she doesn't use it to refer to all black people.

Yes, but her specific connotation of it wouldn't be racist, in and of itself, if she's applying the word to specific behaviors, dress, etc. and not their race. Of course, the N word is, societally, inherently racist at this point, but I think you're mistakenly trying to use this fact to argue that "Uncle Tom" falls into the same category.

Limiting or criticizing someone's actions based on their race would be racism too. "Uncle Tom" is often an internal sort of racism, in that it is used by people within a race to out others of the same race. It's meant to shame them from doing stuff, for fear of being considered an Uncle Tom.

Right, it's meant to shame them for being disloyal - an action that many see as shameful or unethical, and deserving of insult.

 

[Revoltingest]

Right, it's meant to shame them for being disloyal - an action that many see as shameful or unethical, and deserving of insult.

The expectation that he must be "loyal" (as defined by those of differing views) to his race is what makes it racist, ie, that blacks must think a certain way.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The expectation that he must be "loyal" (as defined by those of differing views) to his race is what makes it racist, ie, that blacks must think a certain way.

I find that too far of a stretch of reasoning and context for it to make the phrase and its intended use racist.

 

[Revoltingest]

I tend to define words and phrase according to what they mean and how they're used, not what they smell like.

There is more after an edit....

I see it as disparaging a person because of his race.
Even if the entire race isn't dissed, it still smells like racism.
Would other terms which dis only a portion of a race therefore not be racism?
Should this permissive standard also allow whites to make such references to blacks & other minorities?

Hmmm...looking at a sexism related analogy, I could call Hillary Clinton a "b**ch" because it refers to behavior.
The fact that the term originated with a group & still primarily applies to them would be irrelevant.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

There is more after an edit....

"Hmmm...looking at a sexism related analogy, I could call Hillary Clinton a "b**ch" because it refers to behavior.
The fact that the term originated with a group & still primarily applies to them would be irrelevant."

Neither would I call it sexist or misogynistic to call Hillary Clinton a B, if one thinks her behavior/attitude warrants such a description.

 

[Revoltingest]

"Hmmm...looking at a sexism related analogy, I could call Hillary Clinton a "b**ch" because it refers to behavior.
The fact that the term originated with a group & still primarily applies to them would be irrelevant."

Neither would I call it sexist or misogynistic to call Hillary Clinton a B, if one thinks her behavior/attitude warrants such a description.

This does speak to consistency in your view.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

This does speak to consistency in your view.

Personally, I find it to be important.

 

[Revoltingest]

Personally, I find it to be important.

Agreed.
(Of course, I meant no criticism by my prior post.)

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Agreed.
(Of course, I meant no criticism by my prior post.)

None taken. I can't imagine accusations of consistency being taken as criticism.

 

[Revoltingest]

None taken. I can't imagine accusations of consistency being taken as criticism.

This Emerson quote comes to mind.....

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.

It often gets misapplied to all consistency.
I too am a big fan of consistent reasoning.
But only because it keeps me from being embarrassed even more.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

This Emerson quote comes to mind.....
It often gets misapplied to all consistency.
I too am a big fan of consistent reasoning.
But only because it keeps me from being embarrassed even more.

I've actually always loved that quote myself. I view the distinction is that he's talking about consistency without, or despite, reasoning.

 

[Falvlun]

No, based on his actions.

Would Clarence Thomas have been called an Uncle Tom if he was white?

Yes, but her specific connotation of it wouldn't be racist, in and of itself, if she's applying the word to specific behaviors, dress, etc. and not their race. Of course, the N word is, societally, inherently racist at this point, but I think you're mistakenly trying to use this fact to argue that "Uncle Tom" falls into the same category.

By the above criteria, I don't know how you could claim that any word is inherently racist. (And I think an important point, re grandma, is that even if white people were to dress or behave in the same way, she wouldn't use that word to describe them, because, at base, it is a racially based slur.)

While I obviously don't think that the term "Uncle Tom" is as bad as the N-word, I think the above demonstrates a hole in your argument: that a word must be derogatory for the entire race for it to be considered racist. It also indicates that referencing specific behaviors isn't enough to make it non-racist, and merely, a common insult.

For instance, what if someone only used to the term "wetbacks" to refer to Mexicans who really had illegally crossed the border? It would then be a specific behavior that they were referencing. Does this make the term any less racist? I don't think so.

Right, it's meant to shame them for being disloyal - an action that many see as shameful or unethical, and deserving of insult.

Sure, but that doesn't mean it also can't be a racial slur.

I think it's also important to consider the things that are being considered disloyal. Sometimes, simply "acting white", is enough to earn the epithet. I think it's inherently racist to shame someone for behaving in a way that doesn't conform to someone's concept of how a person of that race should be performing.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I'm not following how that would make it racist? Would you say the phrase, "Race Traitor", was racist? That is, after all, one meaning of the term, "Uncle Tom".

Yes Phil, the term "race traitor" would be a racist term.

Question, when I march with people of color on MLK day, am I a race traitor?

 

[Reverend Rick]

If I was to start a NAAWP group or a Miss White America contest it would be considered to be racist do you agree?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Would Clarence Thomas have been called an Uncle Tom if he was white?


By the above criteria, I don't know how you could claim that any word is inherently racist. (And I think an important point, re grandma, is that even if white people were to dress or behave in the same way, she wouldn't use that word to describe them, because, at base, it is a racially based slur.)

While I obviously don't think that the term "Uncle Tom" is as bad as the N-word, I think the above demonstrates a hole in your argument: that a word must be derogatory for the entire race for it to be considered racist. It also indicates that referencing specific behaviors isn't enough to make it non-racist, and merely, a common insult.

For instance, what if someone only used to the term "wetbacks" to refer to Mexicans who really had illegally crossed the border? It would then be a specific behavior that they were referencing. Does this make the term any less racist? I don't think so.


Sure, but that doesn't mean it also can't be a racial slur.

I think it's also important to consider the things that are being considered disloyal. Sometimes, simply "acting white", is enough to earn the epithet. I think it's inherently racist to shame someone for behaving in a way that doesn't conform to someone's concept of how a person of that race should be performing.

I'm actually curious what you think and "Uncle Tom" actually means, and in what situations one would use it?

 

[Falvlun]

I'm actually curious what you think and "Uncle Tom" actually means, and in what situations one would use it?

In general, it refers to someone from a underprivileged class acting in a subservient manner to people in the privileged class.

More specifically, and usually, it refers to a black person selling out his race by either acting like "white people" or working with or for them.

It is rooted in the concept of "house slaves" vs "field slaves", or slaves that were overly friendly or subservient to their masters.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

In general, it refers to someone from a underprivileged class acting in a subservient manner to people in the privileged class.

More specifically, and usually, it refers to a black person selling out his race by either acting like "white people" or working with or for them.

It is rooted in the concept of "house slaves" vs "field slaves", or slaves that were overly friendly or subservient to their masters.

Yeah, I've never really heard "acting white" as a primary component of what an "Uncle Tom" is. My impressions are that it usually means overly subservient/accommodating to white people and/or involved in, or complacent with, the oppression of fellow black people. The primary perception is that these are people who are contributing to the misery and oppression of their people for their own comfort or position. This type of perceived disloyalty/traitorism transcends all groups, and I'd say it's pretty clear that the behavior is inherently reviled by most people for its own sake.

If your interpretation of an "Uncle Tom" would include anybody who is just "acting white" by dressing a certain way, or speaking a certain way, then I can understand your position. However, I think you're missing a fundamental connotation of what an "Uncle Tom" is.

 

[goodhunter819]

No uncle Tom image was taken from the image face of grand father of Axayacatl who was a great Aztec warrior who was known for his great warring ability, that style of beard shaving would have probably been used to encourage non white Americans to join the fight during whatever war was being fought, Uncle Tom Needs image from the grandfather of Axayacatl the Mexican Indian not of he First Nations.