Is vegan ethics based on the idea that man is equal or superior to animals?

[Valjean]

Personally, I don't eat any animals or animal products, even when their degree of sentience is unclear. but, as i said, the issue of morality and moral obligation is complicated. There are many issues to consider and many different viewpoints.

 

[Milton Platt]

Personally, I don't eat any animals or animal products, even when their degree of sentience is unclear. but, as i said, the issue of morality and moral obligation is complicated. There are many issues to consider and many different viewpoints.

I agree with that. I'm not a vegetarian, but I am borderline. I come from the viewpoint of health, rather than a moral stance. I am just playing devil's advocate to get some folks to think about the details off what they say.

 

[Valjean]

sen·tient
ˈsen(t)SH(ē)ənt/
adjective

1. able to perceive or feel things.
   
   synonyms: (capable of) feeling, living, live;

Worms react to light, to temperature, to moisture, to touch. Is that not being sentient? No matter....I'm not a fan of factory farms, either. I was only addressing a fraction of the vegan/vegetarian population that claims it is immoral to kill animals and then excludes the ones that it is inconvenient to avoid. If they said only that it was immoral to eat animals, they might be able to prove their point.

A plant or machine can react to light, temperature, moisture or touch also, but I wouldn't call them sentient. Sentience involves awareness more than reactivity.
Even a Jain monk can't entirely avoid harming other animals. Just living on Earth entails harming other animals, directly or indirectly.

 

[Nous]

Morals are established by societies, groups, etc.

Prove it.

I don't think it is wrong to question someone who says it morally wrong to kill animals, and then is selective about which animals it applies to.

You haven't provided a speck of evidence that vegans are "selective" in killing animals, or that "it" is selective--whatever you are referring to as "it". Provide the evidence to substantiate your claims.

 

[Silverscale derg]

It sounds like you are trying to justify your own killing and eating of animals on the grounds that other animals eat other animals. But not all other animals eat other animals. Comparing yourself with these animals, your attempted justification fails. In fact, you are not a dragon but a human, whose closest living relatives, who are also hominids, eat a diet that consists of, at most, only a tiny percentage of animal matter, mostly insects that they catch. I have no problem with humans eating insects. I especially encourage you to eat mosquitoes and roaches.

i'm not trying to justify killing, I know all life is equally important yet I would get mad if I didn't have my monthly meat. I'm not a human, well I am and i'm not. This body which i'm in is that of a human but my voice, my spirit, who I am is a dragon. Aren't insects considered animals too so that wouldn't be vegan. Sure if humans stopped spraying and insects weren't toxic but at the same time lizards need insects to eat.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

For the most part I would say we're a pretty humane predator. We kill animals swiftly and quickly for the greater part thanks in part to our developed sense of empathy.

I don't even remember writing that post, it's either very old or I'm losing my memory!

I'm glad we all agree though (you, me and my past self) , or I could probably start arguing with myself here!

 

[allfoak]

Baloney.

Don't eat that stuff.

 

[Nous]

i'm not trying to justify killing, I know all life is equally important yet I would get mad if I didn't have my monthly meat.

What the hell does that mean?

Aren't insects considered animals too so that wouldn't be vegan.

You seem to have miscontrued something about veganism or animal rights and welfare. If "all life [were] equally important" and if all killing were immoral, then killing vegetable plants would be immoral. I guarantee no vegan agrees with that. The issue is the intentionally causing suffering. We can reasonably conclude that a worm whose nervous system consists of nothing more than a nerve cord running from its mouth to its stomach does not have a great deal of consciousness. We can also reasonably conclude that highly intelligent animals such as cows, pigs, sheep and goats are much more able to suffer than a mosquito. That's why I encouraged you to eat all the mosquitoes and roaches you desire.

On the other hand, intentionally doing things that are quite likely to cause an insect to suffer, as are done to cows, pigs, goats, sheep, turkeys, chickens (et al.) every day in factory farms, is also bad.

I'm not a human, well I am and i'm not. This body which i'm in is that of a human but my voice, my spirit, who I am is a dragon.

It's unfortunate you didn't perceive that it's better not to bother me with that sort of stuff.

 

[Milton Platt]

Don't eat that stuff.

We can agree on not eating "mystery meat"......

 

[Milton Platt]

A plant or machine can react to light, temperature, moisture or touch also, but I wouldn't call them sentient. Sentience involves awareness more than reactivity.
Even a Jain monk can't entirely avoid harming other animals. Just living on Earth entails harming other animals, directly or indirectly.

So what is your definition of sentient? you seem to be using one that is different from the one in the dictionary I consulted. I mean, even dictionaries can disagree....it's the nature of human languages.

 

[Valjean]

So what is your definition of sentient? you seem to be using one that is different from the one in the dictionary I consulted. I mean, even dictionaries can disagree....it's the nature of human languages.

Self aware.
It all hinges on consciousness, nature's most perplexing mystery.

 

[Milton Platt]

Self aware.
It all hinges on consciousness, nature's most perplexing mystery.

okay, that helps....how do we test for self awareness?

self-a·ware·ness
ˈˌself əˈwernəs/
noun
noun: self-awareness

1. conscious knowledge of one's own character, feelings, motives, and desires.

How do we determine which species have these qualities?

 

[allfoak]

We can agree on not eating "mystery meat"......

That's good

 

[Valjean]

okay, that helps....how do we test for self awareness?

self-a·ware·ness
ˈˌself əˈwernəs/
noun
noun: self-awareness

1. conscious knowledge of one's own character, feelings, motives, and desires.

How do we determine which species have these qualities?

We assume we have those qualities. We assume our awareness is neurologically based. We assume those animals with neurologically similar anatomy have similar neurological function.

We assume our psychology, behavior, reactions and awareness are evidences of our awareness. We assume comparable behaviors in others have similar conscious causes.

We assume if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck; it's likely a duck.

 

[Milton Platt]

We assume we have those qualities. We assume our awareness is neurologically based. We assume those animals with neurologically similar anatomy have similar neurological function.
Why do we have to assume rather than use testing and observation and what qualities are we assuming? I am asking exactly what qualities make a living organism sentient and why?
We assume our psychology, behavior, reactions and awareness are evidences of our awareness. We assume comparable behaviors in others have similar conscious causes.
Why is human awareness the only kind of awareness that counts?
We assume if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck; it's likely a duck.
But why is the duck sentient and another kind of animal not sentient? That's the answer I'm trying to get at.
If you disagree with the common usage (dictionary definition) of the word sentient, then we can't have a productive discussion until you redefine exactly what sentient means when you use the term.