Is Vegetarianism integral to a moral life.

[Trey of Diamonds]

I know I am being harsh but I think it is needed.

Spoken like a true tyrant. :cover:

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Spoken like a true tyrant. :cover:

Its hardly tyranical. Is hitting your child tyranical?

 

[Caladan]

I think if we were talking about Heart Disease you would be right about the sedentary life style.
We are talking about total environmental meltdown . Due to striping of world of its Natural Resources and the biggest cause of this environmental damage is eating meat.It is not only Beef but fish is a real problem also. .

In the academic and research jargon mainly in anthopology and archaeology, sedentary life style refers to the transition from a nomadic life style to a permanent settlement. this new life style demanded the development of agriculture and cattle breeding.
hunter gatherers before the agricultural shift have eaten meat (and they still do today), and still preserved their place and the place of other animals in their ecological niche, ergo I'm saying that the dramatic trend around the world to adopt a sedentary life style has resulted in many environmental issues, eating meat is not the real problem. and as you, I have no problem being harsh on people who try to promote vegetarianism, since I believe that is simply ridiculous and uneducated approach which ignores the real problems we have to solve and pay attention to as a society. vegetarianism is purely personal manner, just like vegetarianism is essential in your faith and tradition, in other tradition meat and animals play a role in a different way, how would you like it if people offered you sacrificial meat?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Its hardly tyranical. Is hitting your child tyranical?

No, but I find want to be hindu to be very tyranical in his desire to belittle those of us who choose not to believe as he believes. So my statement was made in the context of the tone of his posts.

 

[want to be hindu]

Spoken like a true tyrant. :cover:

Please tell me how I am like a Tyrant.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Please tell me how I am like a Tyrant.

Well, lets see. You insult people who eat meat. You claim that eating meat will bring about global warming. You claim that people who eat meat consider animals lessor beings than themselves.

In all your arguments you take the moral high ground. You consider yourself better than everyone else because you choose to be a vegetarian and you seem to feel this gives you the right to condecend to all of us lessor beings who aren't enlightened enough to know better than to eat meat because doing so will destroy the earth.

The next step in your thought process is probably the fact that if all us lessor beings don't come around to your way of seeing you'll just have to force us to. Ban the eating of meat! Harsh but needed!

A tyrant is someone who forces another to follow their beliefs instead of respecting their differences. You show no respect for my beliefs and I get the feeling if you could force me to become a vegetarian you would. But only to save the world from distruction of course.

So I see you as a tyrant wannabe.

 

[Valjean]

OK. I don't want to disrespect anyone, or claim to know Trey's dharma, but:

Evidently, today's large scale livestock industry, factory or otherwise, creates more greenhouse gas than automobiles do, though it's the latter that seem to garner all the blame. I found this surprising, myself, but facts are facts.
Ergo: Eating meat does cause global warming. Wannabe is correct.

In re: your objection to the idea that meat eaters consider themselves superior to the animals they consume, I think there is some truth in this.
I suspect most meat eaters don't give the idea much thought, but if asked, would agree that humans are better than animals. Philosophies of heirarchy aside, your average Joe does not generally include food animals in his moral universe. They are relegated to a different moral category than Joe's family and friends.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

OK. I don't want to disrespect anyone, or claim to know Trey's dharma, but:

Greetings, and I sense no disrespect in you, at least not towards me. And I certianly respect vegetarians. In my opinion, it takes a lot of spiritual strength to be a vegetarian, especially if it isn't what you were raised to be.

Evidently, today's large scale livestock industry, factory or otherwise, creates more greenhouse gas than automobiles do, though it's the latter that seem to garner all the blame. I found this surprising, myself, but facts are facts.
Ergo: Eating meat does cause global warming. Wannabe is correct.

Yes cows create more greenhouse gases than cars. The fact that this isn't harped on just shows the hypocracy of most greenies. But this fact alone is not sufficient to point fingers at meat eaters and cry foul. want to be a hindu was saying that the entire world was going to come crashing down around us and it's all the fault of meat eaters.

In re: your objection to the idea that meat eaters consider themselves superior to the animals they consume, I think there is some truth in this.
I suspect most meat eaters don't give the idea much thought, but if asked, would agree that humans are better than animals. Philosophies of heirarchy aside, your average Joe does not generally include food animals in his moral universe. They are relegated to a different moral category than Joe's family and friends.

You are right that the suburban masses don't think much of anything about where their food comes from. But to say meat eaters don't respect the animals they eat is a generalization. What about the Native American culture? Spiritually they are very close to the animals that they kill and eat. So as a meat eater are they considered ok because they respect animals and suburban soccer moms are evil because they don't think about where the steak they buy at the grocery store comes from?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Evidently, today's large scale livestock industry, factory or otherwise, creates more greenhouse gas than automobiles do, though it's the latter that seem to garner all the blame. I found this surprising, myself, but facts are facts.
Ergo: Eating meat does cause global warming. Wannabe is correct.

However, the burning of rainforests to create grazing land for Brazilian cattle does not necessarily have a bearing on the consequences of eating American beef, and the contribution of cattle flatulence to global warming does not necessarily have a bearing on the consequences of eating chicken, fish or other animals.

 

[Valjean]

I didn't say anything about not respecting animals. One can respect, even love animals and still consider them inferior. it's quite possible to both respect and exploit.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes cows create more greenhouse gases than cars. The fact that this isn't harped on just shows the hypocracy of most greenies. But this fact alone is not sufficient to point fingers at meat eaters and cry foul. want to be a hindu was saying that the entire world was going to come crashing down around us and it's all the fault of meat eaters.

Just thinking in economic terms, consumption of alternatives to meat carries a bit of the burden of the impacts of meat-eating... but let me explain:

- people do need to eat protein, and can choose between many different products to satisfy this need (meat, lentils, tofu, etc.).
- in this respect, these products are competitors.
- the law of supply and demand is a well-known economic principle: the greater the demand for a product, the higher its price, either in terms of actual money or in terms of the effort expended to get it.
- there is an economic principle called cross-elasticity of demand: an increase in the price of product 'A' will cause an increase in demand for competing product 'B'.
- therefore, any increase in demand for one product (e.g. lentils and tofu) will increase the demand for its competitors (e.g. chicken and beef).
- therefore, any person who consumes more vegetarian sources of protein than absolutely necessary has made a choice that contributes to the negative effects of meat-eating: the more lentils you eat, the more cows die.

So... even if you are completely vegetarian, if you eat anything more than the bare minimum for basic health, then the "blood" of eating meat is on your hands, too.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I didn't say anything about not respecting animals. One can respect, even love animals and still consider them inferior. it's quite possible to both respect and exploit.

Yes but what about my example? The Native Americans considered the animals they hunted to be their brothers and sisters, they were equal in the eyes of the Great Spirit. How does that fit into your view?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

So... even if you are completely vegetarian, if you eat anything more than the bare minimum for basic health, then the "blood" of eating meat is on your hands, too.

Nice.

 

[Comicaze247]

I didn't say anything about not respecting animals. One can respect, even love animals and still consider them inferior. it's quite possible to both respect and exploit.

I agree with Trey. The Native Americans (and to my understanding, the ancient European Pagans) view(ed) animals as equals, just in different physical forms. They just play a part of life. Being lower on the food chain, not in life in general, is the part that they play. Life always gives its own life to provide more life.

 

[Azakel]

*Walks in*
Life begets death and death begets life. Chaos is the fuel of creation. Something must always be destroyed for something to be created.
Nature is harsh. It is unforgiving. The weak die or are killed by the strong. Life feeds on life. Even the strictest vegan is a plant killer.
-John J. Coughlin-
*Walks out*

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I did not call you Immoral.

I was merely answering the question in the thread title.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Hi Want To be Hindu,

Somebody once said, "If we don't stop killing animals, we won't stop killing each other" this sums up my views on vegetarianism. The propensity that exists within us that makes us kill others is the same propensity that makes us crave meat. It is a part of our evolutionary history, when we did need to subsist on meat, but this was also when we were violent and predatorial creatures and barely had any moral understanding. So to answer your question, no you cannot live a moral life and still eat meat, because you keep that primitive propensity alive. In Yoga this is also reiterated, it is categorically stated that one will not reach higher stages of spirituality if they continue non-vegetarian lifestyles.

A few have asked why are we omnivorous then? We are omnivorous because we are not instinctual creatures, we have rationality, which means we can exercise far greater choice than animals. We can choose between good and bad. The fact that we have this choice makes us think we are omnipotent and do anything we like. That also means declaring yourself as hegemon of the world and killing animals for ones enjoyment. Many of us take great pride in our choice, we declare, "It's not bad, if I have the option to do it" or translated in terms of the context of this thread, "I am omnivorous, which means I can eat what I want" On the surface it does seem as if we have free will and we are living in a chaotic univese, but go deeper and you realise that there are deterministic forces and fundamentals laws operating, which will make the outcomes of choices we make beneficial or harmful to us. Meat-eating is one of the choices that are harmful for us and this is born out in the amount of disease associated with meat-eating, salmonella poisoning, mad cow disease, and the ecological imbalance that is taking place in the world, but the greatest harm is subtle, it affects ones intuitive abilties and prevents access to our higher mind.

Non-vegetarianism is a destructive activity and emphasises a regressive part of us and thus can never be a part a spiritual and moral life.

I often go out rabbit and hare shooting.

I'm still yet to shoot my first human.

Hell, I'm still yet to even start a fight with one!

So... "If we don't stop killing animals, we won't stop killing each other" doesn't really follow. At all.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

I often go out rabbit and hare shooting.

I'm still yet to shoot my first human.

Hell, I'm still yet to even start a fight with one!

So... "If we don't stop killing animals, we won't stop killing each other" doesn't really follow. At all.

Ok Meth, first ever disagreement between you and I.

Personally, i could never bring myself to simply waste that sort of life. Why waste a perfectly innocent little life? How would you like getting shot and bleeding to death just for fun?

Stupid as it may sound, rabbits/hares have children. The children depend on their mothers (maybe even fathers?) to get them food and teach them essential life skills.

It is not up to us to just end a life because it might be fun. It is not fair, they have a right to live a life just like us.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

How would you like getting shot and bleeding to death just for fun?

Why do you think it is "just for fun"? I'm so tired of hearing that BS. There are families all across the US that rely on hunting to augment their food supplies. You think everyone can just go down to the store and buy whatever they want whenever they want. You think everyone is rich I take it. There are many rural areas where bringing in a couple deer means the kids get to have Christmas presents because the extra food allowed money to be spent on other things. It means the kids get new cloths instead of patched hand me downs.

Now I'm sure you feel that not killing is more important than these things and that's your right. But STOP claiming hunters are sadistic murderers who revel in wholesale slaughter.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Why do you think it is "just for fun"? I'm so tired of hearing that BS. There are families all across the US that rely on hunting to augment their food supplies. You think everyone can just go down to the store and buy whatever they want whenever they want. You think everyone is rich I take it. There are many rural areas where bringing in a couple deer means the kids get to have Christmas presents because the extra food allowed money to be spent on other things. It means the kids get new cloths instead of patched hand me downs.

Now I'm sure you feel that not killing is more important than these things and that's your right. But STOP claiming hunters are sadistic murderers who revel in wholesale slaughter.

As far as i know, Meth is not doing it to sell the meat. So the point stands. I do not live in the US, therefore i do not know of the conditions there, as i would not expect you to understand the conditions here (not like most Americans would...)