Is "wage slavery" actually "slavery"? And is "capitalism" really "voluntary exchange"?

[Kfox]

For the most part, I agree with proposals for Universal Basic Income. It doesn't have to be a huge amount - but enough to pay for the basic necessities of living. It would be just another safety net, but another aspect is that it would truly test the mettle of capitalists. Regardless of what anyone chooses to call it - "slavery," "wage slavery," "soft slavery," or "not slavery at all" - we would have the opportunity to see if the capitalists can truly survive without some form of available workforce who would be willing to work for low wages under dismal working conditions.

So if this results in getting rid of most of the Capitalists, as well as those working for the Capitalists, who is gonna be left to pay for this Universal basic Income?

 

[Kfox]

For the most part, I agree with proposals for Universal Basic Income. It doesn't have to be a huge amount - but enough to pay for the basic necessities of living. It would be just another safety net, but another aspect is that it would truly test the mettle of capitalists. Regardless of what anyone chooses to call it - "slavery," "wage slavery," "soft slavery," or "not slavery at all" - we would have the opportunity to see if the capitalists can truly survive without some form of available workforce who would be willing to work for low wages under dismal working conditions.

So if this results in getting rid of most of the Capitalists, as well as those working for the Capitalists, who is gonna be left to pay for this Universal basic Income?

 

[Stevicus]

So if this results in getting rid of most of the Capitalists, as well as those working for the Capitalists, who is gonna be left to pay for this Universal basic Income?

We all gotta pitch in and do our part. Capitalists think they deserve to get something for nothing. They're dead weight anyway, so if we don't have to pay them anymore, there'd be plenty of money left over for the people.

 

[Revoltingest]

So if this results in getting rid of most of the Capitalists, as well as those working for the Capitalists, who is gonna be left to pay for this Universal basic Income?

I see that RF's slowing to a crawl is afflicting you too.
(Double post. I've even triple posted today.)

 

[Revoltingest]

Capitalists think they deserve to get something for nothing. They're dead weight anyway, so if we don't have to pay them anymore, there'd be plenty of money left over for the people.

That sounds more like your ilk, ie, government
would provide health care, housing, etc. No one
needs to work...no one is forced to work.
You've no idea what we capitalists have done
for work. Employees had it easy...regular hours,
guaranteed pay. They'd never work my hours.

 

[Yerda]

They'd never work my hours.

Spending 16 hours a day on RF is a but much to ask of a worker

 

[Stevicus]

That sounds more like your ilk, ie, government
would provide health care, housing, etc. No one
needs to work...no one is forced to work.

I didn't say that. All I'm saying is that everyone should pull their own weight.

You've no idea what we capitalists have done
for work.

If that's true, then it's only because capitalists have been unwilling or unable to prove that they've done any real work.

Employees had it easy...regular hours,
guaranteed pay. They'd never work my hours.

If that was really true, there would be no political discord and no revolutions in this world.

 

[Revoltingest]

Spending 16 hours a day on RF is a but much to ask of a worker

Weaklings!

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't say that. All I'm saying is that everyone should pull their own weight.

Whether they want to or not?

If that's true, then it's only because capitalists have been unwilling or unable to prove that they've done any real work.

You've not proven that you've done any work.

If that was really true, there would be no political discord and no revolutions in this world.

You can't even use the subjunctive case when appropriate.
Typical employee.

 

[Unfettered]

You can't even use the subjunctive case when appropriate.

I didn't even know the subjunctive case existed until I learned Spanish. Just sayin'.

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't even know the subjunctive case existed until I learned Spanish. Just sayin'.

I'm more a fan of the deli case.

 

[Stevicus]

Whether they want to or not?

No, I don't think anyone should be forced, but I see it more as a social and moral obligation. Just like I would say "everyone should vote," but that would not imply forcing anyone to vote.

You've not proven that you've done any work.

Well, not here, I haven't.

But regardless, I will point out that every device I use, every bite of food I've eaten, every sip of coffee I've drank - workers are responsible for all of it. They are the only essential component to the design, production, mining/harvesting of materials needed, manufacturing, building, etc.

I need the workers in order to live. I see them as more important to my survival (and everyone else's survival) than capitalists. The indispensability of workers is self-evident, and no further proof is required. Capitalists have yet to prove their worth. I see no evidence of it. The workers build the stuff I use, not capitalists.

You can't even use the subjunctive case when appropriate.
Typical employee.

I'm a rebel. What can I say?

 

[Revoltingest]

No, I don't think anyone should be forced, but I see it more as a social and moral obligation. Just like I would say "everyone should vote," but that would not imply forcing anyone to vote.

The option to be provided for without
having to work would be a popular one.
One that would ruin the model.

Well, not here, I haven't.

But regardless, I will point out that every device I use, every bite of food I've eaten, every sip of coffee I've drank - workers are responsible for all of it. They are the only essential component to the design, production, mining/harvesting of materials needed, manufacturing, building, etc.

Workers wouldn't have their work without
someone starting & running a business,
financing it, & telling them what to do.

Capitalists have yet to prove their worth.

We prove it by comparing our system
with your non-capitalist alternatives.
Were it really that bad here, you'd
have moved there.

I see no evidence of it.

The problem is with your ability to see.

 

[Stevicus]

The option to be provided for without
having to work would be a popular one.
One that would ruin the model.

Well, if the expected improvements and advancements in robotics and AI technology come about, we could conceivably have a society where all the work of society is done by machine, so humans wouldn't have to work. But that's still quite a ways off, I believe.

I don't agree that it would ruin the model. I wasn't advocating anything luxurious, just the bare necessities as a safety net. So, at the very least, people don't have to go homeless or hungry if they're thrown out of work. I think most people would still want to work and get more. Some people like to work even when they don't have to, out of some sense of fulfillment or maybe just because they're bored sitting at home all day. If people are well-treated, made to feel needed, and given proper remuneration for their services, then why wouldn't they want to work?

So, my whole point above was that capitalists would have to actually be nice to their workers and not be able to rely on a necessitous workforce. They might have to change the way they've been doing things these past couple of centuries, but maybe that will do them some good.

Workers wouldn't have their work without
someone starting & running a business,
financing it, & telling them what to do.

Workers are always needed, but the matter of starting it, running it, managing, etc. - those can also be considered workers' functions - except for the financing, which can just as easily come from the state.

We prove it by comparing our system
with your non-capitalist alternatives.
Were it really that bad here, you'd
have moved there.

I don't agree that you've proven it, but I can see where this discussion is headed, so maybe we can agree to disagree at this point.

 

[Kfox]

We all gotta pitch in and do our part. Capitalists think they deserve to get something for nothing. They're dead weight anyway, so if we don't have to pay them anymore, there'd be plenty of money left over for the people.

Do you know what a capitalist is? Do you know what Capitalists do? Because based on your response it appears you do not.

 

[Kfox]

I didn't say that. All I'm saying is that everyone should pull their own weight.

If everybody were in the business of pulling their own weight, we wouldn't need this Universal Basic Income that you speak of.

If that's true, then it's only because capitalists have been unwilling or unable to prove that they've done any real work.

How does a person become a capitalist without doing any real work? Please explain.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, if the expected improvements and advancements in robotics and AI technology come about, we could conceivably have a society where all the work of society is done by machine, so humans wouldn't have to work. But that's still quite a ways off, I believe.

Do you believe that goods & services will just
happen automatically with no business owner
creating them?

 

[Kfox]

But regardless, I will point out that every device I use, every bite of food I've eaten, every sip of coffee I've drank - workers are responsible for all of it.

If capitalists were capable of getting rich without ever working, everybody (especially the working poor) would become capitalist. The fact that they don't should tell you something.

 

[Revoltingest]

If capitalists were capable of getting rich without ever working, everybody (especially the working poor) would become capitalist. The fact that they don't should tell you something.

I've had many employees. Very few had
the drive & talent to run a business.
Those who aren't self motivated need to
be given tasks & direction to be productive.

 

[Stevicus]

Do you know what a capitalist is? Do you know what Capitalists do? Because based on your response it appears you do not.

I don't see that you're making any kind of argument here, so I'll just move on.