Is War Good, Useful, Necessary or Unavoidable?

[Heyo]

Through all the discussions about the war in Ukraine we might have put too much focus on the specific instant. I want to discuss the morality and ethics of war in general.
What is your position? How did you come to it? What are the primitives your position rests upon? And what are you doing to defend your position?

 

[Revoltingest]

War is so many things, depending upon perspective.
I prefer to avoid it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

War should be avoided.

I like this quote.

"During the last six thousand years nations have hated one another, it is now time to stop. War must cease. Let us be united and love one another and await the result. We know the effects of war are bad. So let us try, as an experiment, peace, and if the results of peace are bad, then we can choose if it would be better to go back to the old state of war! Let us in any case make the experiment. If we see that unity brings Light we shall continue it. For six thousand years we have been walking on the left-hand path; let us walk on the right-hand path now. We have passed many centuries in darkness, let us advance towards the light". – Abdu’l-Baha in London, pp. 61-62.

Regards Tony

 

[Ashoka]

I am a pacifist and anti-war.

 

[danieldemol]

Through all the discussions about the war in Ukraine we might have put too much focus on the specific instant. I want to discuss the morality and ethics of war in general.
What is your position? How did you come to it? What are the primitives your position rests upon? And what are you doing to defend your position?

My position is that I prefer to avoid it, except where I see it as necessary as it has been forced upon either myself or others.

War is one of those things that can clap with one hand (ie you can kill lots of people without an opposition to justify it).

I'm unable to physically defend Ukraine and other places, so to defend my position I support unreservedly the arming of its defenders.

In my opinion.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Through all the discussions about the war in Ukraine we might have put too much focus on the specific instant. I want to discuss the morality and ethics of war in general.
What is your position? How did you come to it? What are the primitives your position rests upon? And what are you doing to defend your position?

War is never ok, never a solution.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Through all the discussions about the war in Ukraine we might have put too much focus on the specific instant. I want to discuss the morality and ethics of war in general.
What is your position? How did you come to it? What are the primitives your position rests upon? And what are you doing to defend your position?

Mark 12:31

 

[URAVIP2ME]

....... I want to discuss the morality and ethics of war in general.
What is your position? How did you come to it? What are the primitives your position rests upon? And what are you doing to defend your position?.......

My position rests on Revelation 16:16; Revelation 11:18 B; Psalms 46:9.
Man's history has shown that man can't direct his step, so God will have Jesus step in.
My coming to that position is found at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15.
The 'sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth ' will rid the Earth of the wicked war-minded people.
Jesus is my primary position on which I rest my case.
To defend my position I tell others about the 'good news of God's kingdom' just as Jesus instructed to do.
- Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8; Daniel 2:44

 

[Heyo]

I am a pacifist and anti-war.

Your .sig seems to disagree.

I don't call myself a pacifist as I accept self-defence and the defence of others in need as morally justified. That extends to a country fighting back when attacked.
It doesn't extend to "pre-emptive" war. All attacks on foreign countries should be internationally banned and all violations should automatically lead to severe sanctions by all nations independent of affiliation.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

War is never ok, never a solution.

I can agree that man's wars are never a solution, but God will bring an end to war - Psalms 46:9
The final war is God's War of Armageddon when Jesus as King of God's Kingdom will rid the Earth of wicked war-minded people.
- Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15

 

[Ashoka]

Your .sig seems to disagree.

I don't call myself a pacifist as I accept self-defence and the defence of others in need as morally justified. That extends to a country fighting back when attacked.
It doesn't extend to "pre-emptive" war. All attacks on foreign countries should be internationally banned and all violations should automatically lead to severe sanctions by all nations independent of affiliation.

I don't agree with everything Assata Shakur had to say, but I do agree that oppression exists and it can be fought. Just not with war.

For me personally, I believe protecting yourself and self-defense should be getting out of there. John Lennon once said to a bunch of college kids to get out of a park that was rioting, because it wasn't worth dying for. His solution was to get the heck out of there, if you can.

I don't believe in taking life. My personal belief is that it is wrong to kill.

 

[Eyes to See]

All present wars stem from the universal war that is waging between the Creator, Jehovah God, and the rebellious angel Satan the Devil. That war has been waging for thousands of years and has humankind as the focal point and smack dab in the middle. It has to do with God's universal Sovereignty, and his right to rule.

The angel, spirit son of God, we only know as Satan the Devil rebelled against God's rule, and he took humankind with him, getting the first human pair, Adam and Eve, to side with him, and as a result most of their offspring. He also got 1/3 of the heavens, spirit sons of God, angels, to rebel with him. So Satan has quite the rebellion going.

War would not be necessary if it weren't for that rebellion. But since its inception "man has dominated man to his harm" (Ecclesiastes 8:9).

In Daniel we are given a small glimpse into the powers that rule over earth in Satan's invisible control. There were are told:

"Do you know why I have come to you? Now I will go back to fight with the prince of Persia. When I leave, the prince of Greece will come. However, I will tell you the things recorded in the writings of truth. There is no one strongly supporting me in these things but Miʹcha·el, your prince."-Daniel 10:20-21.

These princes were demons, and it is shown here that they held positions over the respective realms. So it is really demonic spirits, the fallen angels who control the world, and rule the different nations behind the scenes. That is why the Christian is told:

"We have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places."-Ephesians 6:12.

Human wars are not just of human origin, but have at their root cause Satan the Devil. Their wars are not justified.

But God is justified in waging war against the rebels of his good Sovereignty. So not all war is unjust. Unfortunately, God has to become a "manly person of war" in order to defend truth and righteousness and justice.

So all human war is unjust and wrong. A Christian does not get involved in the wars of this earth because they know that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." (1 John 5:19). And all human rule is in the jurisdiction, the perview of Satan the Devil, and in opposition to Jehovah God, and his reigning son in heaven Jesus Christ.

Holy Scripture depicts the holy and glorified Jesus Christ as an angel riding a white horse that rides forth to wage war in rightouesness:

"I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords."-Revelation 19:11-16

He is from the spirit realm and will wage war with both wicked humanity, including all governments now in existence, and the power behind human rule, Satan and his wicked demons:

“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever."-Daniel 2:44.

Because Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords, and ruler over all God has granted him domain, he will in his righteousness and indignation wage war on wicked humankind and vanquish all evil. And God's government will alone remain and bring about worldwide peace and security for all meek and righteous humans wherein they will live forever in paradise on earth.

So all human war is wrong. But not all war is wrong. Righteous war carried on by Jehovah God through his son Jesus Christ is necessary. We are told not to avenge ourselves. But God does avenge. He is a God of mercy, but he is also a God of vengeance. And he will bring swift retribution and vengeance upon the wicked by means of Jesus Christ and his myriads of holy angels.

"This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength."-2 Thessalonians 1:6-9.


Humans need not be considered, nor should they be involved when that war arrives. Many who know Jehovah's Witnesses know they are peaceful people who do not get involved with the wars of the world, mistakenly believing they are pacifists. That is not the case. They realize that Satan is the ruler of the world, and that to partake in the wars and the politics of the world, they take Satan's side in the universal war being waged. They remain neutral in earthly politics because they look to Jesus Christ as God's reigning king in heaven, and to his government as the only solution to humankind's pressing problems. They have full confidence that Jesus Christ will wage the war of Armageddon, and that will be the ultimate battle that will bring an end to vast masses of wicked humanity, and all human rule and will establish a permanent heavenly government over all the earth that will bring untold blessings to the obedient, peaceful, meek ones of the earth.



"The great day of Jehovah is near!
It is near and it is approaching very quickly!
The sound of the day of Jehovah is bitter.
There a warrior cries out.
That day is a day of fury,
A day of distress and anguish,
A day of storm and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick gloom,
A day of the horn and of the battle cry,
Against the fortified cities and against the high corner towers.
I will cause distress to mankind,
And they will walk like blind men,
Because it is against Jehovah they have sinned.
Their blood will be poured out like dust,
And their flesh like the dung.
Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them in the day of Jehovah’s fury;
For by the fire of his zeal the whole earth will be consumed,
Because he will make an extermination, indeed a terrible one, of all the inhabitants of the earth.”
-Zephaniah 1:14-18.

 

[osgart]

Initiating war is never acceptable. By force of will to preserve a free and just way of life with no better options it's acceptable to defend against tyranny with war. Tyrants often only listen to power and strength, and have no use for reason, and empathy. They propagandize, and deceive, to look for weaknesses to exploit.

Unfortunately human nature grows tyrants often enough. So peace loving people are forced into war. My only hope is that while there will always be the threat of war, that western civilization doesn't become cold hearted, and lose it's sense of values toward others. It's not just physical warfare, but there is also mental warfare. People are always taking sides, and the danger of propaganda has only increased with the power of the internet. People can often try to demonize those they disagree with. People are forced into a warrior mentality. With war you have to be careful of what side you take, and if you are actually helping, or harming society.

No greater casulty then the loss of love, and the growth of hatred that causes wars of injustice.

Strength vs. weakness, ideology vs. ideology, resources, power, greed, people always come up with reasons to war against somebody. Being a peacemaker is harder to do than to be a war maker. Choosing war is always the last resort, but you always have to lookout for it. It's a defense only thing to do.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't agree with everything Assata Shakur had to say, but I do agree that oppression exists and it can be fought. Just not with war.
For me personally, I believe protecting yourself and self-defense should be getting out of there. John Lennon once said to a bunch of college kids to get out of a park that was rioting, because it wasn't worth dying for. His solution was to get the heck out of there, if you can. I don't believe in taking life. My personal belief is that it is wrong to kill.

Yes, wrong to kill in the sense of murder.
So, there is a difference between killing, murder and an execution for the sake of justice for the righteous ones.
A Christian's warfare is Not carnal, Not fleshly according to 2 Corinthians 10:4; Ephesians 6:11-17.
Jesus nor his 1st-century followers even got involved in any issues of the day between the Jews verses the Romans.

 

[Twilight Hue]

War is never ok, never a solution.

You have your country because of war.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You have your country because of war.

Just because someone else believe war is the right thing does not mean I agree

 

[Ella S.]

If a war contributes to the average well-being of the human race then it is not only useful but it is necessary.

Whether real wars ever do this or not is up for debate. I hate to bring this up because it seems like a lot of conversations go back to the Nazis but look at Hitler.

Hitler believed in Total War and believed in a corruption of Nietzsche's Will to Power that demanded he sought out his own personal conquest at the expense of everyone else. If he couldn't have something then, to him, it was better to destroy it. He's a perfect example of somebody that is sheer hostility who could not be reasoned with, refused to compromise his conquest, and would rather push himself to the point of suicide than give up his battle.

I think people who say that we could have found a way to peacefully protest against Hitler or diplomatically defuse him are wrong. I genuinely don't think anyone has ever had enough of a grasp on human psychology and a silver enough tongue to use that knowledge to convince somebody like Hitler to back down. War was the only solution and, while it may have costed many lives in the short-term, ultimately that war probably saved more lives than it took. It may have even saved more lives if countries had challenged Hitler earlier.

Yes, war is not ideal. Nobody wants to go to war. The costs of war and the benefits of alternatives should never be underestimated. Sometimes, though, I think it's unethical to avoid war. When your neighbor is slaughtering exponentially more innocent people by the day then somebody has to stop them.

 

[Heyo]

If a war contributes to the average well-being of the human race then it is not only useful but it is necessary.

That is a very dangerous and arrogant position. It is dangerous because it might be used as an excuse to go to war and it is arrogant because it assumes to know what is going to contribute to the well-being of the human race. How many wars were started with the good intention to bring civilization/prosperity/justice/freedom/democracy/peace to those attacked (without asking them if they even want it)?

Whether real wars ever do this or not is up for debate. I hate to bring this up because it seems like a lot of conversations go back to the Nazis but look at Hitler.

Hitler believed in Total War and believed in a corruption of Nietzsche's Will to Power that demanded he sought out his own personal conquest at the expense of everyone else. If he couldn't have something then, to him, it was better to destroy it. He's a perfect example of somebody that is sheer hostility who could not be reasoned with, refused to compromise his conquest, and would rather push himself to the point of suicide than give up his battle.

I think people who say that we could have found a way to peacefully protest against Hitler or diplomatically defuse him are wrong. I genuinely don't think anyone has ever had enough of a grasp on human psychology and a silver enough tongue to use that knowledge to convince somebody like Hitler to back down. War was the only solution and, while it may have costed many lives in the short-term, ultimately that war probably saved more lives than it took. It may have even saved more lives if countries had challenged Hitler earlier.

I'm not arguing against self defence. Self defence is legitimate. But there are always (at least) two in a war, the one defending and the one attacking. There would be no need to defend if there wasn't an attacker.

Yes, war is not ideal. Nobody wants to go to war.

Wrong. If that is true, then why are we doing it so much?
Some people (and we don't have to violate Godwin's Law) benefit from war or think they might benefit. And they are very good at selling war.

The costs of war and the benefits of alternatives should never be underestimated. Sometimes, though, I think it's unethical to avoid war. When your neighbour is slaughtering exponentially more innocent people by the day then somebody has to stop them.

Which brings us back to point one. Who are we to determine that out military invention will, in the end, cause less slaughtering than any other measure?

 

[Ella S.]

That is a very dangerous and arrogant position. It is dangerous because it might be used as an excuse to go to war and it is arrogant because it assumes to know what is going to contribute to the well-being of the human race. How many wars were started with the good intention to bring civilization/prosperity/justice/freedom/democracy/peace to those attacked (without asking them if they even want it)?

Uncertainty is not an excuse for inaction, in my opinion. We have a duty to do what we see is most likely to be the right thing. If that means war then that means war. Anything else is unethical.

I don't think it's arrogant to be decisive.

Wrong. If that is true, then why are we doing it so much?
Some people (and we don't have to violate Godwin's Law) benefit from war or think they might benefit. And they are very good at selling war.

What I meant was, "I think most people here would agree that war should generally be avoided" not literally "nobody wants to go to war." I realized the poor wording after I posted it.

Which brings us back to point one. Who are we to determine that out military invention will, in the end, cause less slaughtering than any other measure?

We are the ones with the military, thus making such a decision our responsibility.

 

[Heyo]

What I meant was, "I think most people here would agree that war should generally be avoided" not literally "nobody wants to go to war." I realized the poor wording after I posted it.

Especially as you are part of the problem yourself.

I wasn't sure a hawk would really turn up in this thread, even with a somewhat provocative title, but I'm glad you did so we can have a debate.

We are the ones with the military, thus making such a decision our responsibility.

Maybe that is part of the problem? You have a hammer and look at every problem as a nail.