Is Yahweh A Liar? Yes, He Is. I Can Prove It.

[Sandra Jayne]

No, Jesus did not fulfill all of them, and that is one reason that the Jews did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah.
Jesus was 'a Messiah' but he was never slated to be 'the Messiah' of the latter days, which is the Messianic Age.
There are so many Old Testament Prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill, I would not even know where to start, but below are a few:

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Both the verses you have used is talking about the Messiah/Jesus once he has inherited his kingdom-sits on his throne and has rulership over the Earth. He was/is/will be all of those things during the 1,000 year kingdom of Christ on earth, peace will exist among the animals and people.

The reason the Jews did not accept Jesus as Messiah is because firstly they thought that the Messiah would immediately act to free them from oppression. They also refused to accept that under the new covenant they were no longer God's 'chosen people' because salvation was now offered to gentiles.

One other point is when debating you should not dismiss what has been said by coming up with another point you think helps further your assertions.
Some of the prophesies that Jesus did fulfil are so specific and over which he had no control, he didn't know that Caesar would want a census so Joseph would have to travel to Bethlehem because that is where it was prophesised the Messiah would be born. He didn't know when he called out for a drink to quench his thirst they would give him vinegar. If you want to dismiss such prophesies then you should give a reason for them and why you think they are not appropriate to use as examples.

 

[Rival]

They also refused to accept that under the new covenant they were no longer God's 'chosen people' because salvation was now offered to gentiles.

'Salvation' in the Christian sense is not an idea of Jewish theology and there is a path for non-Jews. G-d never excluded them from His worship.

 

[Trailblazer]

If this is the evidence upon which your faith has been built, then I would look again at the evidence!

No, this is not the evidence upon which my faith is built, as I never read one page of the Bible before I became a Baha’i, and not for 42 years after that. I only started reading the Bible after I came to forums and began conversing with Christians because I wanted to know what they believed.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence that establishes the truth of His claims.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 105

No. 1. The Gospel is still being preached around the world today. According to Bible translation agencies, there are around 1800 languages that still do not have access to translated scriptures, neither do they have churches planted in their midst.

That’s not the point that it is STILL being preached.. The point is when the gospel would have been preached to all nations of the world.

“Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Matthew 24:3)

“But he that shall endure until the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness … then shall the end come.” (Matthew 24:13-14)

This was clear enough. The end would come, and Christ would return, when His Gospel was preached throughout the world.

A study of the spread of Christianity made by scholars of the 1840’s, convinced them that the message of Christ had, by their day, already encircled the globe. The Gospel was being taught in all the continents. By 1844 it was being taught even in the interior of Africa, not by solitary missionaries, but on an organized scale. A commercial history of East Africa states: “Christian missions began their activities amongst the African people in 1844. (Year Book and Guide to East Africa, Ed. by Robert Hale Ltd., London, 1953, p. 44)

There were many additional references which made it clear that the Gospel of Christ, and its teachers, had entered every continent by the year 1844, spreading the Word of Jesus the Christ throughout the world.

This was considered by the students of Scripture to be in exact fulfilment of the words of Christ given in Mark: “And the gospel must first be published among all nations.” (Mark 13:10)

The millennial scholars of the 1840s felt that Christ’s first promise had been fulfilled. They felt it had been clearly demonstrated that the Gospel of Christ had been ‘preached in all the world for a witness’ and, therefore, the hour for His coming must now be at hand.”

William Sears, Thief in the Night

No. 2. The 'times of the Gentiles' is connected to the time that Jerusalem will be trodden down by Gentiles, rather than occupied by Jews [see the words of Jesus, Luke 21:24] Since Jerusalem was trodden down by Gentiles in 1844, this date for the fulfilment of prophecy is clearly wrong.

The prophecy for the Jews returning to their homeland was fulfilled in 1844.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

21 March 1844 – Edict of Toleration, seen as beginning the process of allowing Jews to settle in the Holy Land. It reduces punishments for apostasy from death.[3]

Edict of toleration

This happened in 1844:Edict of Toleration 1844

An edict of toleration is a declaration, made by a government or ruler and states, that members of a given religion will not be persecuted for engaging in their religious practices and traditions. The edict implies tacit acceptance of the religion rather than its endorsement by the ruling power. Edict of toleration

Simply put, Christ promised that He would return to earth when the Jews came back to their homeland following their period of banishment, not when a Jewish state was established in 1948. Thus at the hour of their return the “times of the Gentiles” was fulfilled in 1844 since the Jews started returning to their homeland in 1844, not in 1948.

No. 3. In Matthew 24:14,15 Jesus says 'And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).

So, not only has the preaching of the Gospel not reached its end, but the 'abomination of desolation' has not occurred, for at this time 'will the end come'. The end did not come in 1844.

Jesus never said anything about the preaching of the Gospel reaching its end.

Jesus said: Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

As noted above, all Bible scholars agreed that the gospel had been preached in all the nations of the world by the 1840s.

The end that Jesus was referring to was the end of an age, not the end of the world. The time of the end that Daniel referred to was the end of an age

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12:11-12 prophesied that two thousand three hundred days (2,300) would pass before the sanctuary would be cleansed. Following this time, all things would be made pure again. Before this time, the people would have fallen into a state of ‘abomination’ without love for God or man; then the Messiah would appear and restore their Faith and the purity of their belief. This was the general conclusion.

The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by the Bab and Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

Baha'ullah and Bab, and also Muhammad, are not to be found in the Bible. There is good reason for this. God chooses a particular people, Israel, to be the people through whom his purposes and will are fulfilled. The Messiah, the only Messiah, is a descendant of the tribe of Judah, prophesied to be born in Bethlehem, the city of David.

Baha'ullah and Bab, and also Muhammad,are not in the Bible, because they had not yet come at the time the Bible was written. but they were all prophesied to come in the Bible.

Jesus was the Messiah through which the purposes of past ages were fulfilled but He is not and never will be the Messiah through which God’s purposes for this age will be fulfilled because Jesus is not coming back ton this world because His work was finished here. (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36)

Furthermore, the Comforter is not another Messiah, but the HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit is said to 'abide with you forever' [John 14:16]..something Baha'ullah cannot do, since he is flesh and blood.

Jesus was a Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit from God. That is why Jesus associated Himself with comfort in the following verse.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus promised to send another Comforter who would bring the Holy Spirit, which was Baha'u'llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jesus promised to send the Comforter/Spirit of Truth, which was Baha'u'llah.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

One of the various proofs of Baha’u’llah is that He did exactly what Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of Truth would do. Referring to Jesus, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and glorified Jesus.

Referring to Jesus, Baha'u'llah wrote:

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

 

[Sandra Jayne]

'Salvation' in the Christian sense is not an idea of Jewish theology and there is a path for non-Jews. G-d never excluded them from His worship.

I am not very knowledgeable about Judaism, I suppose salvation is the Christian view as I don't think Jews accept the concept of original sin or personal salvation. It seems Judaism is more of an ethnic religion, what happens to one happens to all so long as one obey the teachings.

 

[Trailblazer]

Both the verses you have used is talking about the Messiah/Jesus once he has inherited his kingdom-sits on his throne and has rulership over the Earth. He was/is/will be all of those things during the 1,000 year kingdom of Christ on earth, peace will exist among the animals and people.

Only God has rulership over earth. Jesus has no rulership over earth, as Jesus rules forever in heaven on a heavenly throne.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks

Isaiah 9:6-7does not refer to Jesus. These prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Clearly, Jesus did not fulfill Isaiah 11:6-9, because none of these things happened during the Dispensation of Jesus. What Isaiah 11:6-9 means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

Jesus said “My kingdom is not of this world” so there will be no 1,000 year kingdom of Christ on earth where peace will exist among the animals and people. The Kingdom of God on earth is the Kingdom that people will build by following the teachings of Baha'u'llah.

Jesus is never coming back to this world because He has no more work to do here. Not only did Jesus say what is in the following verses, but there is not one single verse wherein Jesus promised to return to earth in the same body He had when He walked the earth 2,000 years ago.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The reason the Jews did not accept Jesus as Messiah is because firstly they thought that the Messiah would immediately act to free them from oppression. They also refused to accept that under the new covenant they were no longer God's 'chosen people' because salvation was now offered to gentiles.

That might be another reason they did not accept Jesus as their Messiah, but it does not change the FACT that Jesus did not fulfill all the Old Testament prophecies.

One other point is when debating you should not dismiss what has been said by coming up with another point you think helps further your assertions.

Some of the prophesies that Jesus did fulfil are so specific and over which he had no control, he didn't know that Caesar would want a census so Joseph would have to travel to Bethlehem because that is where it was prophesised the Messiah would be born. He didn't know when he called out for a drink to quench his thirst they would give him vinegar. If you want to dismiss such prophesies then you should give a reason for them and why you think they are not appropriate to use as examples.

It is a moot point whether Jesus had any control over the fulfillment of these prophecies; the point is that Jesus was never the one who was slated by God to fulfill these prophecies, and that is why He never did. Jesus’ mission ended when He died on the cross, he said, It is finished, but then decades later men wrote stories about Jesus coming back to life so they could believe that He would return in the same body. This emotional attachment to the same man Jesus in the same body with the same personality He had as depicted in the gospels is the primary reason that Christians have rejected Baha’u’llah out of hand, because He was a different person with new name, as was prophesied in the New Testament (Rev 2:17, Rev 3:12).

Christians cannot simply accept reality, that Jesus is not coming back to this world, but they will see Jesus and be with Him in heaven for eternity. The irony is that they will continue to wait for the same man Jesus forever and when He does not come during their lifetimes as has proven to be the case thus far, each generation that was waiting will die and realize they were wrong about Jesus returning to earth. Then when they die and meet Jesus in heaven, Jesus will ask them why they rejected Him when His Spirit returned as Baha’u’llah. What the repercussions of that will be only God knows.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So where's the Temple that's supposed to be built on the Dome of the Rock mosque that the antichrist commits this abomination of desolation, where he sets up a statue of himself and then magically brings it to life and it begins speaking and he then commands the world to worship it? (no kidding; people really believe this stuff--I know, I was one of them at one time--> ). You think the Muslims are going to give up the oldest mosque in existence without every Muslim in Jerusalem tearing the city apart? Even the Jews know they couldn't pull off tearing down the Dome. And frankly, they couldn't care less about building another temple. Most of them are atheist.

I have not offered an interpretation of 'the abomination of desolation', only a reference that places this abomination in the future, making it clear that 1844 is not 'the end'. My argument is that the Bahai Faith has no justifiable claim on the Bible. Baha'ullah is not the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Baha'ullah is not the Messiah come again.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Baha'ullah and Bab, and also Muhammad,are not in the Bible, because they had not yet come at the time the Bible was written. but they were all prophesied to come in the Bible.

None of these three characters, Bab, Baha'ullah or Muhammad, appear in the prophecies of the Bible. If one studies the scriptures carefully, it becomes abundantly clear that God has set safeguards against such spurious claimants.

The usual scripture for Muhammad being prophesied in the Bible is Deuteronomy 18:15-18: 'I will raise them up a Prophet from amongst their brethren, like unto thee [Moses, see verse 15], and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto all that I shall command him.'

This cannot be a reference to Muhammad, firstly, because he was not 'from amongst their brethren' [Moses was speaking to Israelites, not Ishmaelites]; secondly, because the prophecy is referred to again in reference to Jesus. In Acts 3:19-24, Peter says, 'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the Fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.'

Not only is this definitive evidence that the scripture from Deuteronomy was written with reference to the coming Messiah, but that the Messiah was/is Jesus Christ.

Why else would Jesus have said to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, 'These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms concerning me.' ? [Luke 24:44] Jesus himself had no doubt that he was the principal subject of the prophecies of the Tanakh.

Then we come to the question of whether the Holy Spirit is a spirit or a man.
John 14:26 says, 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.'

Conclusion 1. The COMFORTER IS THE HOLY GHOST.

Matthew 1:18. 'Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.'

Conclusion 2. Mary was FOUND WITH CHILD OF THE HOLY GHOST.

So, are you telling me that Baha'ullah was responsible for impregnating Mary?!

IMO, we need to get away from all the garbage that is falsely attributed to the Bible. Jesus said that 'scripture cannot be broken', and you cannot have an unbroken scripture if you allow spurious claimants to add to the words of scripture. God made sure that the scriptures provide us with prophecies and fulfilments, enough at least to convince us that Jesus Christ is the very epicentre of all scripture.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I have not offered an interpretation of 'the abomination of desolation', only a reference that places this abomination in the future, making it clear that 1844 is not 'the end'. My argument is that the Bahai Faith has no justifiable claim on the Bible. Baha'ullah is not the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Baha'ullah is not the Messiah come again.

Well, I can tell you the scenario that you'll find in just about every book on the tribulation--because I read a hundred of these in my Christian days and every one said the same thing:

Antichrist will take over a 10-nation confederacy of Europe (ten heads of Revelation) and basically rule the world from there. The first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation are peaceful. (1260 days Daniel). Mid-way antichrist is wounded in the head and dies but is brought to life when satan indwells him. The temple has been built and at the opening ceremony the antichrist sets a statue of himself on a "wing" of the temple

"And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” Daniel

He commands the statue to talk and it does. he commands everyone to worship it and receive 666 on their forehead or wrist. Anyone who doesn't is put to death. The 2nd half of the tribulation begins with the trumpets and bowls of god's wrath culminating in Armageddon and the return of Jesus riding down from heave on a white horse with all the tribulation saints who were murdered during the tribulation.

Honestly this is all so laughable that it would be a comedy. The sad thing is that millions of Christians believe earnestly in this stuff.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

None of these three characters, Bab, Baha'ullah or Muhammad, appear in the prophecies of the Bible. If one studies the scriptures carefully, it becomes abundantly clear that God has set safeguards against such spurious claimants.

The usual scripture for Muhammad being prophesied in the Bible is Deuteronomy 18:15-18: 'I will raise them up a Prophet from amongst their brethren, like unto thee [Moses, see verse 15], and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto all that I shall command him.'

This cannot be a reference to Muhammad, firstly, because he was not 'from amongst their brethren' [Moses was speaking to Israelites, not Ishmaelites]; secondly, because the prophecy is referred to again in reference to Jesus. In Acts 3:19-24, Peter says, 'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the Fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.'

Not only is this definitive evidence that the scripture from Deuteronomy was written with reference to the coming Messiah, but that the Messiah was/is Jesus Christ.

Why else would Jesus have said to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, 'These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms concerning me.' ? [Luke 24:44] Jesus himself had no doubt that he was the principal subject of the prophecies of the Tanakh.

Then we come to the question of whether the Holy Spirit is a spirit or a man.
John 14:26 says, 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.'

Conclusion 1. The COMFORTER IS THE HOLY GHOST.

Matthew 1:18. 'Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.'

Conclusion 2. Mary was FOUND WITH CHILD OF THE HOLY GHOST.

So, are you telling me that Baha'ullah was responsible for impregnating Mary?!

IMO, we need to get away from all the garbage that is falsely attributed to the Bible. Jesus said that 'scripture cannot be broken', and you cannot have an unbroken scripture if you allow spurious claimants to add to the words of scripture. God made sure that the scriptures provide us with prophecies and fulfilments, enough at least to convince us that Jesus Christ is the very epicentre of all scripture.

Well, Jesus is not mentioned once in the Old Testament either. If you reference passages with, "My servant" or "A king" or "He" these passages could just as easily be referring to Bab, Baha'ullah or Muhammad as they could to Jesus.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well, I can tell you the scenario that you'll find in just about every book on the tribulation--because I read a hundred of these in my Christian days and every one said the same thing:

Antichrist will take over a 10-nation confederacy of Europe (ten heads of Revelation) and basically rule the world from there. The first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation are peaceful. (1260 days Daniel). Mid-way antichrist is wounded in the head and dies but is brought to life when satan indwells him. The temple has been built and at the opening ceremony the antichrist sets a statue of himself on a "wing" of the temple

"And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” Daniel

He commands the statue to talk and it does. he commands everyone to worship it and receive 666 on their forehead or wrist. Anyone who doesn't is put to death. The 2nd half of the tribulation begins with the trumpets and bowls of god's wrath culminating in Armageddon and the return of Jesus riding down from heave on a white horse with all the tribulation saints who were murdered during the tribulation.

Honestly this is all so laughable that it would be a comedy. The sad thing is that millions of Christians believe earnestly in this stuff.

You talk about scripture being laughable, but many prophecies that would have been considered impossible to fulfil have been fulfilled.

At the time of king Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon was a great empire. The king boasted of its glory, saying 'Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?' [Daniel 4:30] Yet, some 170 years before the actual event, the prophet Isaiah prophesied the destruction of the city and the fall of the empire. Moreover, Isaiah foretold the name of the conqueror, Cyrus, and the manner of the destruction [Isaiah chs. 13,14]. I have no doubt that many people listening to Isaiah's words would have considered this impossible, even laughable.

Of course, the Bible is full of such prophecies. Noah was a complete nutcase, building an ark on dry land. Moses was crazy to believe God would find a way for hundreds of thousands of slaves to depart Egypt. Joshua was a lunatic, thinking he could occupy the Promised Land. And so it goes on and on.

It seems to me that faith in God brings about the impossible, and the laughable.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

You talk about scripture being laughable, but many prophecies that would have been considered impossible to fulfil have been fulfilled.

At the time of king Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon was a great empire. The king boasted of its glory, saying 'Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?' [Daniel 4:30] Yet, some 170 years before the actual event, the prophet Isaiah prophesied the destruction of the city and the fall of the empire. Moreover, Isaiah foretold the name of the conqueror, Cyrus, and the manner of the destruction [Isaiah chs. 13,14]. I have no doubt that many people listening to Isaiah's words would have considered this impossible, even laughable.

Of course, the Bible is full of such prophecies. Noah was a complete nutcase, building an ark on dry land. Moses was crazy to believe God would find a way for hundreds of thousands of slaves to depart Egypt. Joshua was a lunatic, thinking he could occupy the Promised Land. And so it goes on and on.

It seems to me that faith in God brings about the impossible, and the laughable.

I didn't say the scriptures are laughable, I said the cartoon scenario of end times these prophecy writers have dreamed up based on the scriptures is laughable. Come on! Antichrist getting his head wounded with a sword and then coming back to life and setting up a talking statue of himself in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem???? You don't find this outlandish? Faith in god brings about all sorts of manifestations, a lot of them not good.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well, Jesus is not mentioned once in the Old Testament either. If you reference passages with, "My servant" or "A king" or "He" these passages could just as easily be referring to Bab, Baha'ullah or Muhammad as they could to Jesus.

In post 94 I have listed some of the prophecies that apply to the 'suffering servant'. These prophecies have been set side-by-side with their fulfilment, as provided by the New Testament scriptures. You can see that they all apply perfectly to Jesus. Very few can be said to apply to Muhammad, Bab of Baha'ullah. And, as I've argued already, you cannot have important prophecies, such as the birth of the Messiah in Bethlehem [Micah 5:2], not applying! Baha'ullah was born in Tehran, Iran. Bab was born in Shiraz, Iran; and Muhammad was born in Mecca, Arabia. That's all we need to know to be sure that each one is not the promised Messiah.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I didn't say the scriptures are laughable, I said the cartoon scenario of end times these prophecy writers have dreamed up based on the scriptures is laughable. Come on! Antichrist getting his head wounded with a sword and then coming back to life and setting up a talking statue of himself in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem???? You don't find this outlandish? Faith in god brings about all sorts of manifestations, a lot of them not good.

If you don't think the scriptures are laughable, then it's down to you to make sense of them! Either they are inspired by God, or they are not. These are decisions you have to reach.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

If you don't think the scriptures are laughable, then it's down to you to make sense of them! Either they are inspired by God, or they are not. These are decisions you have to reach.

Yeah, fine but you didn't answer my question. is this how you personally believe things will happen during the tribulation?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

In post 94 I have listed some of the prophecies that apply to the 'suffering servant'. These prophecies have been set side-by-side with their fulfilment, as provided by the New Testament scriptures. You can see that they all apply perfectly to Jesus. Very few can be said to apply to Muhammad, Bab of Baha'ullah. And, as I've argued already, you cannot have important prophecies, such as the birth of the Messiah in Bethlehem [Micah 5:2], not applying! Baha'ullah was born in Tehran, Iran. Bab was born in Shiraz, Iran; and Muhammad was born in Mecca, Arabia. That's all we need to know to be sure that each one is not the promised Messiah.

Yes, do you know why they apply perfectly to Jesus? Because they were written first and then used to describe Jesus by the gospel writers. "We'll make Jesus a suffering servant, we'll make him a man acquainted with grief and say that his crucifixion was payment for our sins and he bore all our sins. We'll put all of Isaiah 53 into the gospels so we can say, 'Look! Isaiah described Jesus in chap. 53. It must be prophecy fulfillment"

Song, when you have the description already, it's easy to write the portrait of the person using the adjectives from something written 500 years earlier. Now if Isaiah had said, "And I will send my begotten son Jesus Christ to earth to be born in 0 CE. He will be baptized by my prophet John the Baptist and be crucified by a Roman named Pontius Pilate and rise on the 3rd day" THEN I would be really impressed and say, "There is something to these scriptures" But not until then.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yeah, fine but you didn't answer my question. is this how you personally believe things will happen during the tribulation?

There are a number of passages of scripture that I'm unsure about. I believe, at present, there will be seven years of 'Jacob's trouble' but I also believe the nation of Israel (a remnant of Jacob) has a role to play on earth during the next millennium.

It makes sense to me to be ever watchful, and to walk by the Spirit.

Yes, do you know why they apply perfectly to Jesus? Because they were written first and then used to describe Jesus by the gospel writers. "We'll make Jesus a suffering servant, we'll make him a man acquainted with grief and say that his crucifixion was payment for our sins and he bore all our sins. We'll put all of Isaiah 53 into the gospels so we can say, 'Look! Isaiah described Jesus in chap. 53. It must be prophecy fulfillment"

Song, when you have the description already, it's easy to write the portrait of the person using the adjectives from something written 500 years earlier. Now if Isaiah had said, "And I will send my begotten son Jesus Christ to earth to be born in 0 CE. He will be baptized by my prophet John the Baptist and be crucified by a Roman named Pontius Pilate and rise on the 3rd day" THEN I would be really impressed and say, "There is something to these scriptures" But not until then.

Well, given what is needed to impress you, we need go no further than the prophecies and teachings as they exist in scripture!

If you take time to consider these issues, you will see for yourself that the scriptures are nothing short of amazing.

What is it that lies behind the need for scripture in the first place? People have needs. The greatest of these is to know our purpose and reason for being. Life is short, as Job knew, and it's often brutally short. Do we know why we are here? Can we prevent ageing? Do we have knowledge enough to save ourselves from death?

If the Bible is truly a revelation from God, then the Bible is no ordinary book. It's the word of an omnipotent and omniscient being; a Being able to speak truth and pierce the heart of man.

With this as background, imagine you are a first century atheist committed to deceiving the religious authorities in Jerusalem. The Tanakh exists in its complete form, so all you have to do is produce a New Testament, or even just the four Gospels.

Firstly, you need to know your Tanakh pretty well! You have to know it better than the authorities, who weren't sure what to expect. Will the Messiah appear after four thousand years, or five, or six? Will he arrive as a king, or as a servant? Will he be a great prophet?

How can you be sure that in writing your Gospel, you are teaching something new? What will your false Messiah add to the Torah, the Law, that is not already known? If he has nothing new to add, what then would be his purpose in coming?

Are you going to add miracles and healings to your narrative? Who will believe you when you include them? Have you got any witnesses? Remember, if you claim to be writing a Gospel, you are writing a prophecy. This means that the words are scrutinised by the religious authorities. If it looks like being a forgery, a blasphemy, you're dead!

Without making any errors, you must use the prophecy of the Tanakh to convince your readers. Is that possible? You must name the person born as Messiah in Bethlehem. You must write his genealogy, all the way back to David and Abraham. Then you must arrange for this person to die the death mentioned by Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. Who is going to agree to that little deception? And what about all the little details? Betrayed for thirty pieces of silver...put to death with criminals....spat upon....bones out of joint but not broken.... hands and feet pierced....his garments divided...given vinegar to drink....mocked and scorned....resurrected after three days.

Do you still think you can do it? Remember, most Christians today will argue the case for prophecy on the basis of what they know about Jesus Christ. Christ came as a light in darkness, and His light can be used to study retrospectively.

The truth is, we know so little. We need God. We have only a small idea of what actually goes on in heavenly places.

Paul said, 'For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.' [Ephesians 6:12]

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

There are a number of passages of scripture that I'm unsure about. I believe, at present, there will be seven years of 'Jacob's trouble' but I also believe the nation of Israel (a remnant of Jacob) has a role to play on earth during the next millennium.

It makes sense to me to be ever watchful, and to walk by the Spirit.



Well, given what is needed to impress you, we need go no further than the prophecies and teachings as they exist in scripture!

If you take time to consider these issues, you will see for yourself that the scriptures are nothing short of amazing.

What is it that lies behind the need for scripture in the first place? People have needs. The greatest of these is to know our purpose and reason for being. Life is short, as Job knew, and it's often brutally short. Do we know why we are here? Can we prevent ageing? Do we have knowledge enough to save ourselves from death?

If the Bible is truly a revelation from God, then the Bible is no ordinary book. It's the word of an omnipotent and omniscient being; a Being able to speak truth and pierce the heart of man.

With this as background, imagine you are a first century atheist committed to deceiving the religious authorities in Jerusalem. The Tanakh exists in its complete form, so all you have to do is produce a New Testament, or even just the four Gospels.

Firstly, you need to know your Tanakh pretty well! You have to know it better than the authorities, who weren't sure what to expect. Will the Messiah appear after four thousand years, or five, or six? Will he arrive as a king, or as a servant? Will he be a great prophet?

How can you be sure that in writing your Gospel, you are teaching something new? What will your false Messiah add to the Torah, the Law, that is not already known? If he has nothing new to add, what then would be his purpose in coming?

Are you going to add miracles and healings to your narrative? Who will believe you when you include them? Have you got any witnesses? Remember, if you claim to be writing a Gospel, you are writing a prophecy. This means that the words are scrutinised by the religious authorities. If it looks like being a forgery, a blasphemy, you're dead!

Without making any errors, you must use the prophecy of the Tanakh to convince your readers. Is that possible? You must name the person born as Messiah in Bethlehem. You must write his genealogy, all the way back to David and Abraham. Then you must arrange for this person to die the death mentioned by Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. Who is going to agree to that little deception? And what about all the little details? Betrayed for thirty pieces of silver...put to death with criminals....spat upon....bones out of joint but not broken.... hands and feet pierced....his garments divided...given vinegar to drink....mocked and scorned....resurrected after three days.

Do you still think you can do it? Remember, most Christians today will argue the case for prophecy on the basis of what they know about Jesus Christ. Christ came as a light in darkness, and His light can be used to study retrospectively.

The truth is, we know so little. We need God. We have only a small idea of what actually goes on in heavenly places.

Paul said, 'For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.' [Ephesians 6:12]

I can see you believe sincerely in your religion. Any religion that gives comfort and support to the person believing in it has my vote.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'ullah is not the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Baha'ullah is not the Messiah come again.

Baha'u'llah was the Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit that was sent in Jesus' name.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It makes logical sense that the Comforter must be associated with a man, because a “disembodied” Holy Spirit cannot do any of the following things that it says the Comforter and Spirit of truth will do in these verses: John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:8,13,14

• Teach you all things
• Call to remembrance what Jesus said
• Testify of Jesus
• Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
• Guide you into all truth
• Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
• Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Just as Jesus promised, Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus and testified of Jesus.

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

Baha'ullah is not the Messiah come again.

Baha'u'llah was the Messiah come again, as can be proven by comparing Bible prophecies with what happened before, during and after Baha'u'llah appeared. For example:

The Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), but it was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.

Revelation 6:12-14 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…

“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.

Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

There is much more detail regarding the fulfillment of these prophecies and all the other prophecies for the return of Christ in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears

 

[Trailblazer]

I can see you believe sincerely in your religion. Any religion that gives comfort and support to the person believing in it has my vote.

You are much nicer than me, then again as a deist you have no dog in this fight, but as a Baha'i I do have a dog in there and I will fight it till the bitter end.

Many things that Christians believe about Jesus are true, but Jesus neither planned or promised to return to this world, PERIOD. That is not just a Baha'i belief, it is a belief supported by the Bible.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

You are much nicer than me, then again as a deist you have no dog in this fight, but as a Baha'i I do have a dog in there and I will fight it till the bitter end.

Many things that Christians believe about Jesus are true, but Jesus neither planned or promised to return to this world, PERIOD. That is not just a Baha'i belief, it is a belief supported by the Bible.

Couldn't agree more.