Isa al-Masih and Allah

[ayani]

there is a question i'd like to ask, concerning the Quran's record of the virgin birth, and how Allah and Isa relate to one another.

the Quran states, concerning Allah, that

"he is one god, Allah the eternal, the uncaused cause of all being. he begets not, and neither is he begotten." 112:2-3 (Asad)

the Quran is clear in a number of places that Allah "does not beget". on the other hand, the Quran also affirms the virgin birth of Jesus Christ in 3:47 and in 19:20-21. so the Quran confirms the Christian belief that Mary had no earthly husband give her Jesus, but that Allah gave Jesus life in her womb, apart from human seed.

however, here we have an apparent contradiction within the Quran itself. "to beget", according to the dictionary, means "to father or sire" and "to cause to exist or occur; produce". in Arabic, it is expressed in the root y-l-d, and the same root is used to express the idea that Allah "is not begotten" in other words, that Allah is uncreated and beginingless, that nothing fathered Allah.

the Quran states that Allah does not beget. yet if Allah's creative powers brought Jesus into being in Mary's womb and not the seed of a man, than in fact Allah did certainly "beget" Jesus.

interestingly, the Quran's narrative has the angel Gabriel explaining to a bewildered Mary "thus it is: Allah creates what he wills when he wills a thing to be, he but says unto it, 'Be' - and it is." 3:47 (Asad) in other words, Allah is to "cause to exist" Jesus the Messiah in Mary's womb by his own power, because he wills it. this in itself, combined with the context Allah's power being the source of Mary's pregnancy, fits the very definition of "to beget".

for a Muslim, to hear that Allah is or could be the father of anyone, is preposterous. but we can conclude from ayat such as 3:47 and the very definition of the word "beget" that from a Quranic perspective, Allah certainly did beget Jesus. that Allah gave Jesus life in Mary's womb. Mary's womb did not independently form Jesus- rather Allah gave that life within her, for her womb to nurture and sustain until Jesus' birth.

is there a contradiction here? is it a matter of etymology and Arabic meaning that is getting lost in translation?

 

[islamcity]

The answer to your quote is simple.

Just like allah created the essence of mankind which were adam an eve out of nothingness, then surely he will have the power to create jesus in the womb of lady maryam.

 

[Sui]

I think the problem here is just the meaning of "to beget" itself. Since we're speaking of the Quran, "beget" is most likely used in the archaic sense, which carries sexual connotations.

 

[why_islam]

The answer to your quote is simple.

Just like allah created the essence of mankind which were adam an eve out of nothingness, then surely he will have the power to create jesus in the womb of lady maryam.

Thank you my friend, that answered the question.

THe SUPREME GOD HAS THE POWER TO DO ANYTHING, and Mary gave a birth to baby( jesus) without having any many ever touched her, with the power of god, as it also says in the verse you stated too.

 

[ayani]

Sui -

yet there are numerous words used in the Quran to describe sexual relations. the term used in the context of Isa and Allah is based on the root y-l-d, which no where else in the Quran is used to point to sexual relations or "touching" a woman.

y-l-d is used only in the context of "begetting" and not as a word that could be translated "lay with" or "had relations with". the Quran sates that Allah is "not begotten"- that nothing fathered, created, or caused him to be.

the Quran does not say that Allah "touched" Mariam in the physical sense, but it does give a perfect and not neccesarily sexual description of begetting- creating from nothing, forming, or fathering, in its decription of the virgin birth.

because if the Ruh Quddus did not father Isa, what did? something / someone had to. a womb can not spontaneously generate life on its own. something must do the begetting-the womb supplies only the ovum, not the seed which begins the actual pregnancy.

 

[ayani]

this is important in light of Islamic protests against Christians refering to Jesus as the Son of God. Muslims maintain that Allah has no son, and equate Allah with the God descibed in the Bible- and present Mohammad as a continuer / restorer of the prophetic line to which Jesus belongs.

the faiths share many things in common, and many differences. the lives and examples of Jesus of Nazareth and Mohammad ibn Abdullah are very different on a number of levels- politically, ethically, religiously, and socially. the commandments they have given and the values they have placed as central often contradict one another. Abrahamically, to know which man is truly sent of God and speaking the words of God is a vital thing to understand.

 

[TashaN]

I see it as a problem in English rather than a contradiction in the Quran. In arabic, y-l-d has no other meaning but to give birth, while beget might mean many things in other languages as you have presented.

this is important in light of Islamic protests against Christians refering to Jesus as the Son of God. Muslims maintain that Allah has no son, and equate Allah with the God descibed in the Bible- and present Mohammad as a continuer / restorer of the prophetic line to which Jesus belongs.

the faiths share many things in common, and many differences. the lives and examples of Jesus of Nazareth and Mohammad ibn Abdullah are very different on a number of levels- politically, ethically, religiously, and socially. the commandments they have given and the values they have placed as central often contradict one another. Abrahamically, to know which man is truly sent of God and speaking the words of God is a vital thing to understand.

I can understand why would Christians believe that Isa is God or son of God, but what i can't understand is how would you see that very same thing in Islam. The Islamic idea of Isa is very clear. He was just another servant of God, a separate being.

Did you check the other verses in the Quran where Isa himself is mentioned talking about this issue?


P.S. I still didn't receive the mail you have promised to send ayani, remember?

 

[ayani]

Tashan, can i ask, if y-l-d carries the more general meaning of "give birth" why is this term rendered exclusively into English as "beget", a specifically male terminology?

birth is not a male function, but a female one. likewise, females do not "beget", rather the male does.

what we have in the Quran is a fascinatingly accurate description of Isa being "begotten" by Allah, in both a general and a corporal sense. not birthed, but begotten.

the Quran and Jesus' own assertions about who He is as recorded in the Gospels truly do talk past one another. and understandably so. a Muslim who sincerely believes that the Gospel narratives are "corrupted" and unreliable will not have much reason to read the Gospels with faith and trust, or to believe that the words spoken by Jesus of Nazareth therein have anything to do with the Isa al-Masih described in the Quran.

on that last point, i would agree.

 

[TashaN]

Tashan, can i ask, if y-l-d carries the more general meaning of "give birth" why is this term rendered exclusively into English as "beget", a specifically male terminology?

birth is not a male function, but a female one. likewise, females do not "beget", rather the male does.

what we have in the Quran is a fascinatingly accurate description of Isa being "begotten" by Allah, in both a general and a corporal sense. not birthed, but begotten.

What are you saying, ayani?

Are saying that God is denying giving any birth but admitting to beget but it been mistranslated?

You really think it was all about God saying, hey people, i really don't give birth like females?

You are very sharp, but your problem is that, in the past, you were thinking before believing, but now, you are believing in something then trying to validate this belief by all means.

the Quran and Jesus' own assertions about who He is as recorded in the Gospels truly do talk past one another.

[116] And behold! Allah will say: "O 'Isa the son of Maryam! didst thou say unto men, 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

[117] "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. (Quran 5:116-117)

a Muslim who sincerely believes that the Gospel narratives are "corrupted" and unreliable will not have much reason to read the Gospels with faith and trust

That's the thing. You trust and put faith on something because others asked you to do so. For me, i put my trust on people i know, not on the unknown writers of the bible and the fake disciple of Jesus, Paul.

 

[ayani]

Tashan, speaking of the issue of trust and faith, can i ask, from where did you get the idea that Paul the Apostle is a false dsciple / unreliable in his words / writings?

how did you coe to this idea / conclusion? from what sources / persons / articles? in other words, Tashan, who as taught you how to doubt in such specific ways? why Paul's person and writings, and not the Epistle of James, or the Book of Hebrews?

Tashan, i must say that you are wrong about my source for faith. if i believed in Him simply because i have been taught to, i would not be a Christian (John 3:2-8).

i *was* raised to believe in Jesus and to trust the Bible. yet i found early on that beig told or taught something and accepting it, is no substitute for finding out for one's self what is true, and seeking it out. that skepticism lead me from the Church as a young person, not to it. and that desire to be abolutely sure of what is true finally helped guide me back to the Person of Jesus.

 

[TashaN]

Tashan, speaking of the issue of trust and faith, can i ask, from where did you get the idea that Paul the Apostle is a false dsciple / unreliable in his words / writings?

how did you coe to this idea / conclusion? from what sources / persons / articles? in other words, Tashan, who as taught you how to doubt in such specific ways? why Paul's person and writings, and not the Epistle of James, or the Book of Hebrews?

Because he is the most influential person in Christianity's history through his writings and laws which contradict with Isa's teachings and the teachings of Torah and Gospel in general. No body taught me anything and all what i had to do is to read who was Paul and whether he met with Isa or not, what he believed in and how he changed almost, everything Isa's disciples believed in.

... to the Person of Jesus.

Instead of his Lord and your Lord?

 

[ayani]

Because he is the most influential person in Christianity's history through his writings and laws which contradict with Isa's teachings and the teachings of Torah and Gospel in general. No body taught me anything and all what i had to do is to read who was Paul and whether he met with Isa or not, what he believed in and how he changed almost, everything Isa's disciples believed in.

can you please give me some specific examples, Tashan? how, where, and in what ways do Paul's writings / ideas contradict those of Jesus (as recorded in the four Gospels)?

how and in what ways does Paul change / alter what Jesus' discipes believed in? more basically, can you tell me what, based on the Gospels, His followers did believe about Him, and where Paul contradict those statemens of faith?

Instead of his Lord and your Lord?

Lord *is* a title used for Jesus by His disciples in the Gospels. He is Someone, a Person. He is also, for every Christian, Lord.

 

[TashaN]

can you please give me some specific examples, Tashan? how, where, and in what ways do Paul's writings / ideas contradict those of Jesus (as recorded in the four Gospels)?

how and in what ways does Paul change / alter what Jesus' discipes believed in? more basically, can you tell me what, based on the Gospels, His followers did believe about Him, and where Paul contradict those statemens of faith?

Who introduced the original sin?

Lord *is* a title used for Jesus by His disciples in the Gospels. He is Someone, a Person. He is also, for every Christian, Lord.

Wasn't it Jesus who said ...

Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren (disciples), and say to them, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

 

[ayani]

in a number of places, Jesus calls Himself "Lord", and He does not rebuke His disciples for calling Him the same.

look at this passage of scripture :

"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet." (spoken by Jesus in John 13:13-14)

the idea of original sin did not orininate with Paul, but is found in Genesis, in the story of man's fall. we are all sinners. and because of the sinful nature inherited spiritually from our first parents, we've kind of got a veil over our hearts. that relationship with God got lost. we can seek God, have ideas about God, and talk about God. there are many ways to do that. but to know God and walk with Him in the fullest most joyful sense, is possibly only through Jesus the messiah, the Son, whose person, and atoning death, and living power rip through that veil of inner lostness.

"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. (spoken by Jesus in John 15:9-11)

the complete joy of Jesus is the light and great joy of knowing God, and having a relationship with Him, and being washed from the burden and darkness of original sin. Jesus also says that no one knows the Father but the Son, and whomever the Son reveals Him to (Matthew 11:27).

we all have original sin. that doesn't mean we can't make morally right choices, or do our best to be good and helpful, or do our best to live a meaningful / purposeful life as we understand it. but what that does mean is that we are not truly alive, spiritually, in the way that we could be, in relation to the God who made the heavens and the earth, who has given us life, and who guides all things.

Biblically, this spiritual life is available only through the Son, the Messiah. (John 10:9-10 and John 14:6)

 

[ayani]

Tashan, Jesus teaches humanity about the One God- whom He calls "Abba, Father".

the same God who made the universe, who made us, and who is ultimately in control. Jesus' love for and surrender to the Faher, for us Christians, in no way *distracts* from Jesus' Lordship.

it doesn't mean that we are in any way "missing the point" by making Christ Jesus the center of our lives, our Lord, Teacher, Saviour, and Light. for without Jesus, we would be in spiritual darkness, and could not know God.

just as for a Muslim the Quran points the way to and reveals Allah (and Islamic surrender to him) to humanity, so for the Christian Jesus the Son reveals God to humanity, and opens up the way for a walk with Him in Himself- the Only Way, the Truth, and the Life.

we are to be Christ-like, and embody Him with our very lives. that is how we are to be, with the help of God's Spirit in our hearts, to live as His disciples and ambassadors in the world.

 

[TashaN]

in a number of places, Jesus calls Himself "Lord", and He does not rebuke His disciples for calling Him the same.

look at this passage of scripture :

"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet." (spoken by Jesus in John 13:13-14)

And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. (Mark 10:18)

the idea of original sin did not orininate with Paul, but is found in Genesis, in the story of man's fall. we are all sinners.

Does the bible say that? what verse?

Tashan, Jesus teaches humanity about the One God- whom He calls "Abba, Father".

the same God who made the universe, who made us, and who is ultimately in control. Jesus' love for and surrender to the Faher, for us Christians, in no way *distracts* from Jesus' Lordship.

it doesn't mean that we are in any way "missing the point" by making Christ Jesus the center of our lives, our Lord, Teacher, Saviour, and Light. for without Jesus, we would be in spiritual darkness, and could not know God.

just as for a Muslim the Quran points the way to and reveals Allah (and Islamic surrender to him) to humanity, so for the Christian Jesus the Son reveals God to humanity, and opens up the way for a walk with Him in Himself- the Only Way, the Truth, and the Life.

we are to be Christ-like, and embody Him with our very lives. that is how we are to be, with the help of God's Spirit in our hearts, to live as His disciples and ambassadors in the world.

That's noble, but why to go to the extreme? he doesn't want you to worship him. Follow him and his teachings but don't worship him. He doesn't want that and he didn't ask you to do it. If you really want to be Christ-like, don't think for him, just do as he says.

'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

He is just like us, someone who has a God. How can you worship a god who has a God?

 

[ayani]

Tashan ~

in Mark 10:18, look at what Jesus says after that. you see, the young man calls Jesus "Good Teacher", and Jesus asks the man the question- why do you call Me good? isn't God alone good? Jesus asks the young man if he has kept the ten commandments- he has. yet Jesus says the young man still has to do one thing to really inherit God's kingom- let go of his attachment to riches, and follow Him. Jesus is saying that to really walk in God's ways, one must know the Son and walk with Him. God is good. He alone is good. yet if God gives all authroity on heaven an earth to a single man, a man having in Himself God's qualities, power, and vey words to impart to humanity, is that man also not good, as He shares fully in God's divinity, power, grace, and truth?

as for sin, Tashan, in the Bible :

look at Genesis 3:17-19 and Romans 5:12-17. because of Adam's sin, death, suffering, and seperation from God came into the world. it's in Genesis itself, as well as repeated later in the Bible. nothing in the Bible would give me the cause to question if i as a Christ-follower shoud be worshipping Jesus or not. the Quran says diffrently, but then, that is the Quran.

Tashan- you tell me only to worship God, and not Jesus. but i have to ask you, do you know Jesus? do you know who He really is? do you know who He is in relation to God and to us men and women?


Tashan, i learned this lesson after leaving Islam- you can't use the Bible to tear apart Christian beliefs- pointing to some Gospel passaes to refute Christian faith (as with Mark 10:18), and dismissing the others as "corrupt", if they counter Islamic / Quranic ideas about Isa. i've done the same thing- i am also guilty of that, far more so. i've made your same arguments, and also attacked Christians with Mark 10:18. the same Bible which gives us the Shema also reports that Jesus was worshipped by His followers, revered as the Son of God and Messiah, was crucified, and rose from the dead after thee days.

what the Quran may or may not say about Isa bears nothing, in the end, on a Christian's faith. i learned this while still a Muslim using both Quran and Bible to attack Christianity, and later, as a Christian.

 

[TashaN]

Tashan ~

in Mark 10:18, look at what Jesus says after that. you see, the young man calls Jesus "Good Teacher", and Jesus asks the man the question- why do you call Me good? isn't God alone good? Jesus asks the young man if he has kept the ten commandments- he has. yet Jesus says the young man still has to do one thing to really inherit God's kingom- let go of his attachment to riches, and follow Him. Jesus is saying that to really walk in God's ways, one must know the Son and walk with Him. God is good. He alone is good. yet if God gives all authroity on heaven an earth to a single man, a man having in Himself God's qualities, power, and vey words to impart to humanity, is that man also not good, as He shares fully in God's divinity, power, grace, and truth?

Don't ask me this question ayani. The matter doesn't need any exaggeration. The man said good teacher, Jesus said i'm not. It's a plain answer. I need you to show me where Jesus confirmed that he didn't mean it.

You see, this is the difference between Islam and Christianity. We don't need to think for God or for his Prophets. It's a white or black issue. We can be certain of what they want from us, and we don't have to think for them. It's very clear in Islam and we don't need to doubt it and reinterpret it to make their words fit to our own perception of them.

as for sin, Tashan, in the Bible :

look at Genesis 3:17-19 and Romans 5:12-17. because of Adam's sin, death, suffering, and seperation from God came into the world. it's in Genesis itself, as well as repeated later in the Bible.

I'm not seeing it. There has been a separation from God, but where does the bible say that we are all sinners because of what Adam did?

nothing in the Bible would give me the cause to question if i as a Christ-follower shoud be worshipping Jesus or not. the Quran says diffrently, but then, that is the Quran.

Tashan- you tell me only to worship God, and not Jesus. but i have to ask you, do you know Jesus? do you know who He really is? do you know who He is in relation to God and to us men and women?

I used to read the bible and i still do from a time to another when i need to do so, and i try to see what Jesus say but i still don't read there that Jesus said worship me.

Please show me where did Jesus say i'm God, worship me?

He denied totally to be mere *good*, how about of being GOD? I think it's a great insult for Jesus and for his message to do contrary to what he said.

Tashan, i learned this lesson after leaving Islam- you can't use the Bible to tear apart Christian beliefs- pointing to some Gospel passaes to refute Christian faith (as with Mark 10:18), and dismissing the others as "corrupt", if they counter Islamic / Quranic ideas about Isa.

Nope, i don't pick and choose. I just follow what Jesus say. I'll accept all what he says. I don't trust Paul, nor the other unknown writers of the bibles.

i've done the same thing- i am also guilty of that, far more so. i've made your same arguments, and also attacked Christians with Mark 10:18. the same Bible which gives us the Shema also reports that Jesus was worshipped by His followers, revered as the Son of God and Messiah, was crucified, and rose from the dead after thee days.

Are you saying i'm attacking Christianity now when i discuss with you, ayani?

If that's the case then i'll have to stop discussing this issue with you anymore because i have alot of Christian friends and i love them and respect them. I also respect the faith of Christians in God although we disagree in many issues.

what the Quran may or may not say about Isa bears nothing, in the end, on a Christian's faith. i learned this while still a Muslim using both Quran and Bible to attack Christianity, and later, as a Christian.

Sorry ayani, but i have no interest in attacking any faith because i don't have the time to do that. I'm discussing this issue with you because i know that you are a nice and very decent person.

Peace be upon you.

 

[Muffled]

Sui -

yet there are numerous words used in the Quran to describe sexual relations. the term used in the context of Isa and Allah is based on the root y-l-d, which no where else in the Quran is used to point to sexual relations or "touching" a woman.

y-l-d is used only in the context of "begetting" and not as a word that could be translated "lay with" or "had relations with". the Quran sates that Allah is "not begotten"- that nothing fathered, created, or caused him to be.

the Quran does not say that Allah "touched" Mariam in the physical sense, but it does give a perfect and not neccesarily sexual description of begetting- creating from nothing, forming, or fathering, in its decription of the virgin birth.

because if the Ruh Quddus did not father Isa, what did? something / someone had to. a womb can not spontaneously generate life on its own. something must do the begetting-the womb supplies only the ovum, not the seed which begins the actual pregnancy.

So, then are you saying that "Allah does not beget" uses a root with a sexual connotation?

 

[ayani]

Tashan ~

i'm not saying you *are* attacking. you are respectful and intelligent. what i meant is that i used to attack Christianty. not very politely, either. and what i meant also i that i've learned that using one text to discredit another tends to lead to argument rather than understanding.

Tashan, the Romans verse says that sin entered into humanity through Adam. yes, we are sinful. now, that doesn't mean that we can't make morally good decisions, or do our best to be kind and just. what that does mean is that yes, we are sepeated from God. and the Romans verse says that just as sin (sepration from God in a personal, living way) entred through Adam, it is washed away in Christ.

do i believe that Jesus is God? i believe that He is God incarnate- One with the Father, an incarnate, human expression of God's love, law, righteousness, and power. Jesus Himself says that all power on heaven and earth has been given Him by the Father. i believe He is more than a messenger, more than simply a mortal human. i believe He is risen from the dead, and lives now. i believe He is distict from the Father, yet of One pupose and essence. if calling out to Jesus and caling out to God get the same miraculous response (as we see in the Gospels), it would not be inappropriate to say that Jesus is God. nor, for a Christian, would it be blasphemous.

is Jesus Allah, or for Muslim, in an way God or equal to God? no. is He, for the Christian, God made flesh? yes.

Jesus does not command anyone to worship Him- He is not a commader in that sense. He does not demand or instruct others to kneel before Him, recognize His divinity, or exalt Him. one has the *choice* to recognize Him, worship Him, and follow Him. it is not solely worshipping Jesus that makes the difference. countless Christians worship Him, yet do little if anything to reflect Him the rest of the week. it's the faithful walk of discipleship that matters.

Tashan the authors of the Bible are not unknown. for more background on who these authors are and what they teach, i recommend a NIV study Bible. nothing in Paul or in the other writers of the NT contradict the words of Christ in the Gospels. sometimes the emphasis is different to bring specific teachings or truths to the reader's attention. but the difference lies in emphasis, not in proposition. where do you find reason within the NT to doubt the writers? in what passages?

do you doubt the Gospel narratives as well, and why?