Isa al-Masih and Allah

[ayani]

So, then are you saying that "Allah does not beget" uses a root with a sexual connotation?

not necesarily. the Quran says that Allah is not begotten, nor does he beget. the root used is the same.

elsewhere in the Quran, the roots used to describe the physical act of sex or regeneration are differnt from the y-l-d root used to convey "beget".

it is used in that sense to mean that Allah is not a created being, born of woman, nor does Allah have offspring. Allah creates, yet he does not beget in that specific sense of fathering anyone.

yet the virgin birh, described in the Quran, means that Allah *does* begat- as Allah's spirit caused Isa to be created in Mary's womb. Allah did not physically go to Mary, rather his spirit / power sparked her pregnancy. that means Allah's power took the place that human male seed would take in creating a human life. in other words, in some meaningful and unique way, Allah begat Isa.

 

[ayani]

Tashan ~

here is the larger story of Jeus' encounter with the rich young man, from Mark's Gospel :

As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'" "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy." Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

and from Luke's Gospel:

A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'" "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

now why does the young man regognize Jesus as good, if God alone is good? notice Jesus does not tell the young man *not* to call Him good. what He does is rhetorically ask the ruler / young man why he calls Him good, seeming as God alone is good. and if believing in God and following the commendments alone are enough for eternal life, why does Jesus tell the young man he lacks something, and then invite him to be His disciple?

 

[TashaN]

Tashan ~

i'm not saying you *are* attacking. you are respectful and intelligent. what i meant is that i used to attack Christianty. not very politely, either.

Thanks, and i feel sorry that you had to attack another faith to prove yours to be right.

and what i meant also i that i've learned that using one text to discredit another tends to lead to argument rather than understanding.

I'm using Isa's words in the bible. I didn't use the Quran to discredit the bible in my discussions with you, did i?

Tashan, the Romans verse says that sin entered into humanity through Adam. yes, we are sinful.

Repeating yourself is not an answer to the question at hand, ayani. I asked, where does the bible say that we are sinful now because Adam sinned and you still didn't address my concerns here. You came up with a verse earlier but it doesn't say that. I'm still waiting. You just have to admit ayani that you put your faith in the teaching of the church, not the bible, and not even Jesus, because you are trusting none of them.

do i believe that Jesus is God? i believe that He is God incarnate- One with the Father, an incarnate, human expression of God's love, law, righteousness, and power.

Does he has a split in personality?

How do you explain Jesus's words talking about someone else?

'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

Jesus does not command anyone to worship Him- He is not a commader in that sense. He does not demand or instruct others to kneel before Him, recognize His divinity, or exalt Him. one has the *choice* to recognize Him, worship Him, and follow Him. it is not solely worshipping Jesus that makes the difference. countless Christians worship Him, yet do little if anything to reflect Him the rest of the week. it's the faithful walk of discipleship that matters.

How come? so he asked people to worship him in the OT then he stopped doing so in the NT?

Tashan the authors of the Bible are not unknown. for more background on who these authors are and what they teach, i recommend a NIV study Bible. nothing in Paul or in the other writers of the NT contradict the words of Christ in the Gospels. sometimes the emphasis is different to bring specific teachings or truths to the reader's attention. but the difference lies in emphasis, not in proposition. where do you find reason within the NT to doubt the writers? in what passages?

do you doubt the Gospel narratives as well, and why?

So are you saying now that ALL the authors of the bible are well known? a yes or no answer would suffice here.

 

[TashaN]

not necesarily. the Quran says that Allah is not begotten, nor does he beget. the root used is the same.

elsewhere in the Quran, the roots used to describe the physical act of sex or regeneration are differnt from the y-l-d root used to convey "beget".

Can you give some other examples of this "else where" please?

yet the virgin birh, described in the Quran, means that Allah *does* begat- as Allah's spirit caused Isa to be created in Mary's womb. Allah did not physically go to Mary, rather his spirit / power sparked her pregnancy. that means Allah's power took the place that human male seed would take in creating a human life. in other words, in some meaningful and unique way, Allah begat Isa.

In that sense Allah begat all of us, God forbid. Allah put souls in all of us, not just Isa, but the different in Isa's case was that a human sperm wasn't necassary, just like Adam. Heck, Adam's miracle was a greater one, because he had no father and no mother, unlike Jesus who had a mother.

now why does the young man regognize Jesus as good, if God alone is good?

Because he appeared to be good, for performing so many miracles in the name of God, but Jesus stood still and denied to be someone else, someone to be put in a place than what he deserve.

notice Jesus does not tell the young man *not* to call Him good. what He does is rhetorically ask the ruler / young man why he calls Him good, seeming as God alone is good.

Ayani, it's well understood that Jesus didn't want to treat him as a child. He didn't say don't do, don't do or just give a blunt answer. He was guiding people in a great way for he is a great teacher.

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Isn't this clear enough?

He is saying i'm not good, but God is. Or you think he is saying, i'm not good, but i'm good "if Jesus and God "the father" were the same person?

Or maybe God incarnation is speaking to his other part? the one in heaven? it doesn't make any sense.

and if believing in God and following the commendments alone are enough for eternal life, why does Jesus tell the young man he lacks something, and then invite him to be His disciple?

I don't know. Tell me when you find out.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Who introduced the original sin?



Wasn't it Jesus who said ...

Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren (disciples), and say to them, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

Also remember in the bible it is Yeshua (Isa) who commands that all should obey the laws of God. He warned not teach others to not follow them..etc...etc...... But christians will tell you the price christ paid for them on the cross absolves them from the law. It is Paul whom we find teaching this (originally)....

 

[TashaN]

It is Paul whom we find teaching this (originally)....

Excatly! That was my point from the beginning. Paul ruined Jesus's teachings.

 

[ayani]

Tashan ~

i have found out. Jesus asks the young man to follow Him, exactly because that is what God would like Him to do. God sent Jesus- God speaks, acts, and heals through Jesus, and Jesus is loved, deeply, by God. in another thread (your "confused" thread) i've quoted Jesus a number of places to show how He relates to God, and God to Him.

Tashan, take a look at the Quranic passages mentioning, for example, birth, marital relations between husband and wife, or sex in general. we both know that the Arabic language works on roots of words, like k-t-b being the roots for "book". those words used to translate into English such phrases as "give birth", "lie with", or "go to" in English don't contain the y-l-d root. check Islamicity's Quran search for examples, and compare. that's what i've done.

Tashan, Jesus does not compell people to worship Him. He dos not clearly say "bow down to me and honour me!" He gives people a choice. He lets them know that the power He has is of God, that God sent Him, that to honour Him is to honour God, and that to know Him is to know God. we have the choice, when faced with these testimonies of Jesus, to worship Him, to honour Him, to be His disciples. He won't beat us black and blue and force us on our knees - Christian discipleship must be a choice, a choice made possible via God's grace.

Tashan, if you are adament about mistrusting Paul's epistles, then any material i give you from Paul can be rejected simply by virtue of its author. Paul, a Jew familiar with the Torah and with Judaic uderstanding, states that sin entered the world through Adam, and that we are cleansed of sin through Christ. Genesis is also clear that death, sorrow, and separation from God come about through Adam's disobediece.

Tashan, please give me any specific quotes from Paul's epistles that you understand to contradict the words / teachings of Jesus in the Gospels, and i'll look into it. simply mistrusting a bulk of writing on hearsay isn't going to help clarify things. what exatly does Paul write that messes up Jesus' testimony?

as far as authors, we basically know who wrote the Bible. some books are of uncertain authorship, and where not certain, educated guesses at authorship are made through the text, literary style, and the events it describes.

so far as the NT, we have clear undertanding that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the authors of the Gospels named for them. Luke wrote Acts. Paul wrote Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thesslonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, and Philemon. the author of Hebrews, formerly thought to be Paul, may have been Barnabus, a companion of Paul. James (likely the brother of Jesus) wrote James, 1 Peter and 2 Peter were written by Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and 3 John were all penned by the author of the Gospel of John. Judas was writen by Judas, a brother of Jesus. Revelation was penned by John, generally agreed to be the apostle.

 

[philip_54b]

In that sense Allah begat all of us, God forbid. Allah put souls in all of us, not just Isa, but the different in Isa's case was that a human sperm wasn't necassary, just like Adam. Heck, Adam's miracle was a greater one, because he had no father and no mother, unlike Jesus who had a mother.

there is a difference between "creating" and "begetting".
Allah according to quran created the heavens and the earth and humankind. in other words , allah didn't begot but created us.
but the story of pregnancy of Mary is completely different. that's what quran says:

so she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then we sent to her our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man (17)
فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا ﴿17﴾
she said: surely i fly for refuge from you to the beneficent allah, if you are one guarding (against evil) (18)
قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا ﴿18﴾
he said: i am only a messenger of your lord: that i will give you a pure boy (19)
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا ﴿19﴾
she said: when shall i have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have i been unchaste? (20)
قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا ﴿20﴾
he said: even so; your lord says: it is easy to me: and that we may make him a sign to men and a mercy from us, and it is a matter which has been decreed (21)
قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا ﴿21﴾
Chapter 19: MARYAM (MARY)
​

I believe that quran is talking about a sexual relationship between marry and spirit of allah and if you want , I can show you why.

here are your choices to solve this story:

1. the spirit of Allah was God himself and created the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have: is that God in Islamic theology can not Incarnate. but in this story we read "and there appeared to her a well-made man"
​

2. the spirit of Allah was not God, but something else (like angle or...) and created the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have: is that angles or ... would be creators , but we know that only creator in Islamic theology is Allah.
​

3. the spirit of Allah was not God, but something else(like angle or ...) and beget the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have , is that the Mary could not be a virgin anymore. because the spirit of Allah, as a MAN ,get her , pregnant.
​

you are free to choose one!

 

[philip_54b]

Excatly! That was my point from the beginning. Paul ruined Jesus's teachings.

so... do you think that Paul's teachings overcome the other teachings?(like jesus true(?!) teachings)
just a simple answer: yes or no?

 

[Sahar]

there is a difference between "creating" and "begetting".
Allah according to quran created the heavens and the earth and humankind. in other words , allah didn't begot but created us.
but the story of pregnancy of Mary is completely different. that's what quran says:

so she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then we sent to her our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man (17)
فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا ﴿17﴾
she said: surely i fly for refuge from you to the beneficent allah, if you are one guarding (against evil) (18)
قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا ﴿18﴾
he said: i am only a messenger of your lord: that i will give you a pure boy (19)
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا ﴿19﴾
she said: when shall i have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have i been unchaste? (20)
قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا ﴿20﴾
he said: even so; your lord says: it is easy to me: and that we may make him a sign to men and a mercy from us, and it is a matter which has been decreed (21)
قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا ﴿21﴾
Chapter 19: MARYAM (MARY)
​

I believe that quran is talking about a sexual relationship between marry and spirit of allah and if you want , I can show you why.

here are your choices to solve this story:

1. the spirit of Allah was God himself and created the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have: is that God in Islamic theology can not Incarnate. but in this story we read "and there appeared to her a well-made man"
​

2. the spirit of Allah was not God, but something else (like angle or...) and created the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have: is that angles or ... would be creators , but we know that only creator in Islamic theology is Allah.
​

3. the spirit of Allah was not God, but something else(like angle or ...) and beget the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have , is that the Mary could not be a virgin anymore. because the spirit of Allah, as a MAN ,get her , pregnant.
​

you are free to choose one!

The problem only is in your reading and understanding and that's what needs to be solved.

17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."
19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

A messenger from the Lord can't be the Lord Himself! I think no problem in grasping this. Who said that angels create? The Ayaat made it clear that messenger "the angel" went to Maryam to deliver a message "not to create". Who created 'Isa in Maryam is Allah subhanahu watala "She said, "My Lord , how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allāh; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is." Al Imran:47
What sexual relationship here? If Maryam wondered how she could have a son without a man touching her (i.e without a sexual relationship) then how it's possible to come and say "the Qur'an is talking about a sexual relationship"??!!

 

[TashaN]

Tashan ~

i have found out. Jesus asks the young man to follow Him, exactly because that is what God would like Him to do. God sent Jesus- God speaks, acts, and heals through Jesus, and Jesus is loved, deeply, by God. in another thread (your "confused" thread) i've quoted Jesus a number of places to show how He relates to God, and God to Him.

You still didn't answer the question, ayani. Jesus's words were very straight forward and pretty clear but you just don't want to see it the way Jesus want to see it, but only through the way your version of Jesus or your imaginary view of Jesus want to see.

Tashan, take a look at the Quranic passages mentioning, for example, birth, marital relations between husband and wife, or sex in general. we both know that the Arabic language works on roots of words, like k-t-b being the roots for "book". those words used to translate into English such phrases as "give birth", "lie with", or "go to" in English don't contain the y-l-d root. check Islamicity's Quran search for examples, and compare. that's what i've done.

Do you personally want to re-translate the Quran to fit into your own understanding and version of truth?

Tashan, Jesus does not compell people to worship Him. He dos not clearly say "bow down to me and honour me!" He gives people a choice. He lets them know that the power He has is of God, that God sent Him, that to honour Him is to honour God, and that to know Him is to know God.

Of course he shouldn't. That's why he was directing them to worship and honor his God and their God, the one he and them should worship alike.

we have the choice, when faced with these testimonies of Jesus, to worship Him, to honour Him, to be His disciples. He won't beat us black and blue and force us on our knees - Christian discipleship must be a choice, a choice made possible via God's grace.

Yes, i agree with you, it's a choice you make, but it's not one that Jesus ever would approve or tolerate.

Tashan, if you are adament about mistrusting Paul's epistles, then any material i give you from Paul can be rejected simply by virtue of its author. Paul, a Jew familiar with the Torah and with Judaic uderstanding, states that sin entered the world through Adam, and that we are cleansed of sin through Christ. Genesis is also clear that death, sorrow, and separation from God come about through Adam's disobediece.

Tashan, please give me any specific quotes from Paul's epistles that you understand to contradict the words / teachings of Jesus in the Gospels, and i'll look into it. simply mistrusting a bulk of writing on hearsay isn't going to help clarify things. what exatly does Paul write that messes up Jesus' testimony?

I already gave you one. Show me where does the bible say that we are born into this world as sinners because Adam sinned.

some books are of uncertain authorship

Thank you.

 

[TashaN]

there is a difference between "creating" and "begetting".
Allah according to quran created the heavens and the earth and humankind. in other words , allah didn't begot but created us.
but the story of pregnancy of Mary is completely different. that's what quran says:

so she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then we sent to her our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man (17)
فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا ﴿17﴾
she said: surely i fly for refuge from you to the beneficent allah, if you are one guarding (against evil) (18)
قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا ﴿18﴾
he said: i am only a messenger of your lord: that i will give you a pure boy (19)
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا ﴿19﴾
she said: when shall i have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have i been unchaste? (20)
قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا ﴿20﴾
he said: even so; your lord says: it is easy to me: and that we may make him a sign to men and a mercy from us, and it is a matter which has been decreed (21)
قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا ﴿21﴾
Chapter 19: MARYAM (MARY)
​

I believe that quran is talking about a sexual relationship between marry and spirit of allah and if you want , I can show you why.

here are your choices to solve this story:

1. the spirit of Allah was God himself and created the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have: is that God in Islamic theology can not Incarnate. but in this story we read "and there appeared to her a well-made man"
​

2. the spirit of Allah was not God, but something else (like angle or...) and created the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have: is that angles or ... would be creators , but we know that only creator in Islamic theology is Allah.
​

3. the spirit of Allah was not God, but something else(like angle or ...) and beget the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have , is that the Mary could not be a virgin anymore. because the spirit of Allah, as a MAN ,get her , pregnant.
​

you are free to choose one!

Allah does create all of us by sending a soul into us by an angel. It happens automatically in the womb when the child is starting to develop in the womb. On the other hand, in Jesus case, there was no need for a sperm to combine with a woman egg to create a body in the fashion we are familiar with, but in this special case, Allah created Jesus in Marry's womb in the same way he created Adam. There was no need for an egg, sperm, etc.

Allah already said:

[59] The similitude of 'Isa before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be": and he was.

[60] The Truth (comes) from thy Lord alone; so be not of those who doubt. (Quran 3:59-60)

I do understand how people would view this issue using the bible, but it's really laughable when some people try to use the Quran to prove the divinity of Jesus or him being the son.

 

[TashaN]

so... do you think that Paul's teachings overcome the other teachings?(like jesus true(?!) teachings)
just a simple answer: yes or no?

Yes...

 

[philip_54b]

The problem only is in your reading and understanding and that's what needs to be solved.

17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."
19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

A messenger from the Lord can't be the Lord Himself! I think no problem in grasping this. Who said that angels create? The Ayaat made it clear that messenger "the angel" went to Maryam to deliver a message "not to create". Who created 'Isa in Maryam is Allah subhanahu watala "She said, "My Lord , how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allāh; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is." Al Imran:47
What sexual relationship here? If Maryam wondered how she could have a son without a man touching her (i.e without a sexual relationship) then how it's possible to come and say "the Qur'an is talking about a sexual relationship"??!!

The problem only is in your reading and understanding and that's what needs to be solved.

17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

dear muslim
the problem is not in my understanding , but in the corrupted translations of your holy quran!
"We sent her our angel"?!!
Ask your illiterate translators that what does رُوحَنَا mean? the angle? indeed, no!
it means OUR(=allah) SPIRIT.
and it comes from رُوحَ (spirit)
the messenger is arabic (and persian) is رسول and not روح.
and we know that the spirit of God is from God , internal and eternal. but how ever ,in the last two assumptions we have assumed that this spirit is not allah and the problem still, is not solved.

here are your choices to solve this story:

1. the spirit of Allah was God himself and created the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have: is that God in Islamic theology can not Incarnate. but in this story we read "and there appeared to her a well-made man"
​

2. the spirit of Allah was not God, but something else (like angle or...) and created the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have: is that angles or ... would be creators , but we know that only creator in Islamic theology is Allah.
​

3. the spirit of Allah was not God, but something else(like angle or ...) and beget the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have , is that the Mary could not be a virgin anymore. because the spirit of Allah, as a MAN ,get her , pregnant.
​

you are free to choose one!

Who said that angels create?

the quran!

he said: i am only a messenger of your lord: that i will give you a pure boy
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا
maryam 19.
​

the allah will not give Mary (either create or beget) the pure boy(christ) , but the spirit of allah (messenger? angle? god?) will give Mary this boy.
again in the same Surah(chapter):

he said: even so; your lord says: it is easy to me: and that we may make him a sign to men and a mercy from us, and it is a matter which has been decreed (21)
قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا

​

it's not easy for Allah but easy for the spirit of allah/messenger

so we know that Jesus Christ is either made or begot by this spirit.
if the spirit created the Jesus then the Allah would not be the only creator(contradiction)
if the spirit(that became a MAN) begot Mary , then the mary would not be a virgin any more(another contradiction)

 

[philip_54b]

Yes...

thank you very much for your simple answer.
now take a look at this verse from quran:

believers, be the helpers of allah. when (prophet) jesus, the son of mary said to the disciples: 'who will be my helpers unto allah? ' the disciples replied: 'we will be the helpers of allah. ' a party of the children of israel believed, and a party disbelieved. so, we supported those who believed against their enemy, and they overcame.
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آَمَنُوا كُونوا أَنصَارَ اللَّهِ كَمَا قَالَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ لِلْحَوَارِيِّينَ مَنْ أَنصَارِي إِلَى اللَّهِ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنصَارُ اللَّهِ فَآَمَنَت طَّائِفَةٌ مِّن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَكَفَرَت طَّائِفَةٌ فَأَيَّدْنَا الَّذِينَ آَمَنُوا عَلَى عَدُوِّهِمْ فَأَصْبَحُوا ظَاهِرِينَ
Chapter 61: AS-SAFF (THE RANKS) verse 14

​

1. you said that the teachings of the saint paul , overcome the other teachings.
2. and quran says that the true teachings of jesus overcome(so, we supported those who believed against their enemy, and they overcame.)

so if you believe that Quran is the truth , then you should conclude that Paul's teachings were true teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

[TashaN]

dear muslim
the problem is not in my understanding , but in the corrupted translations of your holy quran!
"We sent her our angel"?!!
Ask your illiterate translators that what does رُوحَنَا mean? the angle? indeed, no!
it means OUR(=allah) SPIRIT.
and it comes from رُوحَ (spirit)
the messenger is arabic (and persian) is رسول and not روح.
and we know that the spirit of God is from God , internal and eternal. but how ever ,in the last two assumptions we have assumed that this spirit is not allah and the problem still, is not solved.





the quran!

he said: i am only a messenger of your lord: that i will give you a pure boy
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا
maryam 19.
​

the allah will not give Mary (either create or beget) the pure boy(christ) , but the spirit of allah (messenger? angle? god?) will give Mary this boy.
again in the same Surah(chapter):

he said: even so; your lord says: it is easy to me: and that we may make him a sign to men and a mercy from us, and it is a matter which has been decreed (21)
قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا

​

it's not easy for Allah but easy for the spirit of allah/messenger

so we know that Jesus Christ is either made or begot by this spirit.
if the spirit created the Jesus then the Allah would not be the only creator(contradiction)
if the spirit(that became a MAN) begot Mary , then the mary would not be a virgin any more(another contradiction)

What do you think of my answer? or you forgot to check it?

 

[Muffled]

there is a difference between "creating" and "begetting".
Allah according to quran created the heavens and the earth and humankind. in other words , allah didn't begot but created us.
but the story of pregnancy of Mary is completely different. that's what quran says:

so she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then we sent to her our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man (17)
فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا ﴿17﴾
she said: surely i fly for refuge from you to the beneficent allah, if you are one guarding (against evil) (18)
قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا ﴿18﴾
he said: i am only a messenger of your lord: that i will give you a pure boy (19)
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا ﴿19﴾
she said: when shall i have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have i been unchaste? (20)
قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا ﴿20﴾
he said: even so; your lord says: it is easy to me: and that we may make him a sign to men and a mercy from us, and it is a matter which has been decreed (21)
قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا ﴿21﴾
Chapter 19: MARYAM (MARY)
​

I believe that quran is talking about a sexual relationship between marry and spirit of allah and if you want , I can show you why.

here are your choices to solve this story:

1. the spirit of Allah was God himself and created the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have: is that God in Islamic theology can not Incarnate. but in this story we read "and there appeared to her a well-made man"
​

2. the spirit of Allah was not God, but something else (like angle or...) and created the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have: is that angles or ... would be creators , but we know that only creator in Islamic theology is Allah.
​

3. the spirit of Allah was not God, but something else(like angle or ...) and beget the Jesus.

then the problem that Islam would have , is that the Mary could not be a virgin anymore. because the spirit of Allah, as a MAN ,get her , pregnant.
​

you are free to choose one!

The idea that God can't incarnate may be in the minds of Muslims but I don't find it in the Qu'ran. Sura 2:87 says:
We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear Signs and strengthened him with the holy spirit.

The Holy Spirit is equivalent to God so the obvious anwser from the Qu'ran is that the Holy Spirit was incarnated.

Luke puts it a little differently:
Luke 1:35 The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

dear muslim
the problem is not in my understanding , but in the corrupted translations of your holy quran!
"We sent her our angel"?!!
Ask your illiterate translators that what does رُوحَنَا mean? the angle? indeed, no!
it means OUR(=allah) SPIRIT.
and it comes from رُوحَ (spirit)
the messenger is arabic (and persian) is رسول and not روح.
and we know that the spirit of God is from God , internal and eternal. but how ever ,in the last two assumptions we have assumed that this spirit is not allah and the problem still, is not solved.

I'm not sure anyone here has said the "Translators" of the quran are spot on. There are plenty of versions out there. SO what...???? It means spirit. The fact of the matter is they were all sent, as the quran says, "FROM" Allah. They weren't Allah but merely "Messengers" (of and/or from) the one that sent them. Shucks Yeshua (Isa) himself is referred to as a spirit from Allah in 4:171. This in no way proves or describes Yeshua or any other (spirit, messenger, apostle) of Allah as being Allah or "begat" (sired) by Allah.

the quran!

he said: i am only a messenger of your lord: that i will give you a pure boy
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا
maryam 19.
​

the allah will not give Mary (either create or beget) the pure boy(christ) , but the spirit of allah (messenger? angle? god?) will give Mary this boy.
again in the same Surah(chapter):

he said: even so; your lord says: it is easy to me: and that we may make him a sign to men and a mercy from us, and it is a matter which has been decreed (21)
قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا

​

it's not easy for Allah but easy for the spirit of allah/messenger

so we know that Jesus Christ is either made or begot by this spirit.
if the spirit created the Jesus then the Allah would not be the only creator(contradiction)
if the spirit(that became a MAN) begot Mary , then the mary would not be a virgin any more(another contradiction)

Whatever the "Spirit/Messenger" of Allah did or how he did it, it is obvious it wasn't Allah that physically begat Yeshua (isa). Actually, if you re-read the verse, the Angel (spirit, messenger) is quoting his lord (Allah) and relaying what his lord (Allah) said. This is something that should be expected of a messenger.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The idea that God can't incarnate may be in the minds of Muslims but I don't find it in the Qu'ran. Sura 2:87 says:
We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear Signs and strengthened him with the holy spirit.

The Holy Spirit is equivalent to God so the obvious anwser from the Qu'ran is that the Holy Spirit was incarnated.

Luke puts it a little differently:
Luke 1:35 The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.

Where does it say the "Holy Spirit" is God? or is this just your interpretation of what the holy spirit is? Furthermore, observe 2:87.....How can God's helpers, messengers, angels strengthen Yeshua (Isa) with God??????:sarcastic..... Makes no sense. In your trinitarian view Yeshua (Isa) is already God....so how can God be strengthened by God...? Makes no sense.

 

[philip_54b]

Allah does create all of us by sending a soul into us by an angel. It happens automatically in the womb when the child is starting to develop in the womb. On the other hand, in Jesus case, there was no need for a sperm to combine with a woman egg to create a body in the fashion we are familiar with, but in this special case, Allah created Jesus in Marry's womb in the same way he created Adam. There was no need for an egg, sperm, etc.

Allah already said:

[59] The similitude of 'Isa before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be": and he was.

[60] The Truth (comes) from thy Lord alone; so be not of those who doubt. (Quran 3:59-60)

I do understand how people would view this issue using the bible, but it's really laughable when some people try to use the Quran to prove the divinity of Jesus or him being the son.

Allah created Jesus in Marry's womb

contradiction.
you said that Allah created Jesus in the womb of Marry.
Quran says that the Spirit(of Allah/ the messenger) gives(created) Jesus to Mary.
the results of these statements would be:

1. contradiction.
2. the spirit of Allah(messenger) is Allah himself.

you and Quran says that this messenger is not Allah. so the only choice that is left is contradiction and contradiction is absurd.

There was no need for an egg, sperm

My dear friend...
I believe this theology and in my faith , it is absolutely true.
but it seems that your Quran doesn't agree with this!

he said: i am only a messenger of your lord: that i will give you a pure boy
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا
maryam 19.
​

the messenger either created the Jesus or begot him(got marry pregnant).
we know that the only creator is Allah so the messenger get marry pregnant and the only way to beget Islamic Jesus in this way is fertilization(sperm+egg=baby!). don't forget that spirit of Allah was not a ghost anymore but "a well-made man"(Maryam 17)

but it's really laughable when some people try to use the Quran to prove the divinity of Jesus or him being the son.

in Christian belief the Muhammad bin Abdulah was not a true prophet so a christian doesn't need do suport his doctrines by using a book acording to this man.

I'm also waiting for the the answer of this post:

thank you very much for your simple answer.
now take a look at this verse from quran:

believers, be the helpers of allah. when (prophet) jesus, the son of mary said to the disciples: 'who will be my helpers unto allah? ' the disciples replied: 'we will be the helpers of allah. ' a party of the children of israel believed, and a party disbelieved. so, we supported those who believed against their enemy, and they overcame.
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آَمَنُوا كُونوا أَنصَارَ اللَّهِ كَمَا قَالَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ لِلْحَوَارِيِّينَ مَنْ أَنصَارِي إِلَى اللَّهِ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنصَارُ اللَّهِ فَآَمَنَت طَّائِفَةٌ مِّن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَكَفَرَت طَّائِفَةٌ فَأَيَّدْنَا الَّذِينَ آَمَنُوا عَلَى عَدُوِّهِمْ فَأَصْبَحُوا ظَاهِرِينَ
Chapter 61: AS-SAFF (THE RANKS) verse 14

​

1. you said that the teachings of the saint paul , overcome the other teachings.
2. and quran says that the true teachings of jesus overcome(so, we supported those who believed against their enemy, and they overcame.)

so if you believe that Quran is the truth , then you should conclude that Paul's teachings were true teachings of Jesus Christ.