Isa al-Masih and Allah

[philip_54b]

The idea that God can't incarnate may be in the minds of Muslims but I don't find it in the Qu'ran. Sura 2:87 says:
We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear Signs and strengthened him with the holy spirit.

The Holy Spirit is equivalent to God so the obvious anwser from the Qu'ran is that the Holy Spirit was incarnated.

but still the Holy spirit in Quran can not be the God. He is only a messenger from God(Maryam 19) so there is a distinction between Allah and the messenger(spirit of Allah). and according to quran the Allah is the only God(AL-IKHLAS 1) and there is not plurality in his essence. so it's a good reasoning to conclude that the spirit of allah according to quran is not allah himself.

Whatever the "Spirit/Messenger" of Allah did or how he did it, it is obvious it wasn't Allah that physically begat Yeshua (isa). Actually, if you re-read the verse, the Angel (spirit, messenger) is quoting his lord (Allah) and relaying what his lord (Allah) said. This is something that should be expected of a messenger.

Im not sure how can we expect a messenger from God, to gives a son to a virgin woman.
the Maryam 19 is a direct claim that not God but the messenger gives the pure baby to the Mary. it's not God through the messenger but messenger himself.

 

[TashaN]

contradiction.
you said that Allah created Jesus in the womb of Marry.
Quran says that the Spirit(of Allah/ the messenger) gives(created) Jesus to Mary.
the results of these statements would be:

1. contradiction.
2. the spirit of Allah(messenger) is Allah himself.

I don't see any contradictions. You are just bluffing. When i say Allah created Jesus in the womb of marry, that does obviously mean that it was through sending a spirit through a messenger as i have explained.

The spirit of Allah that was sent is not Allah himself, lol. I don't know where do you guys show up from.

you and Quran says that this messenger is not Allah. so the only choice that is left is contradiction and contradiction is absurd.

My dear friend...
I believe this theology and in my faith , it is absolutely true.
but it seems that your Quran doesn't agree with this!

he said: i am only a messenger of your lord: that i will give you a pure boy
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا
maryam 19.
​

the messenger either created the Jesus or begot him(got marry pregnant).
we know that the only creator is Allah so the messenger get marry pregnant and the only way to beget Islamic Jesus in this way is fertilization(sperm+egg=baby!). don't forget that spirit of Allah was not a ghost anymore but "a well-made man"(Maryam 17)

Where do you get this from? There is no egg, and no sperm. By the way, there is no islamic Jesus, Christian Jesus, and hola bola Jesus, there is only one.

in Christian belief the Muhammad bin Abdulah was not a true prophet so a christian doesn't need do suport his doctrines by using a book acording to this man.

Then leave the Quran which you have no knowledge of aside and keep using your bible to support your feeble arguments.

I'm also waiting for the the answer of this post:

What does Paul has to do with that verse? the verse talk about the believers, not those who rejected and contradicted Jesus message and chose to follow their own desires like Paul. He saw Jesus and Jesus himself asked Paul to preach to people huh?

Believe me, Paul is the one who ruined the true message of Jesus. He doesn't count to be one of his followers because he didn't follow the original message.

The verse is talking about Mohammed "peace be upon him", the one who should proceed in Jesus's footstep forever by carrying the true message of Allah.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

My dear friend...
I believe this theology and in my faith , it is absolutely true.
but it seems that your Quran doesn't agree with this!

he said: i am only a messenger of your lord: that i will give you a pure boy
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا
maryam 19.
​

the messenger either created the Jesus or begot him(got marry pregnant).
we know that the only creator is Allah so the messenger get marry pregnant and the only way to beget Islamic Jesus in this way is fertilization(sperm+egg=baby!). don't forget that spirit of Allah was not a ghost anymore but "a well-made man"(Maryam 17)


Im not sure how can we expect a messenger from God, to gives a son to a virgin woman.
the Maryam 19 is a direct claim that not God but the messenger gives the pure baby to the Mary. it's not God through the messenger but messenger himself.

See your "ASSUMPTION" is that this HAD to be PHYSICAL act between God and Marry or the angel and Mary. The message the quran relays is that the angel is tasked with informing Mary she will bare a son. She says I've never been touched by a man so how will this be possible. The angel says that with Allah all he has to say "be" and it it will be.

No physical act is needed. Adam had no mother and no father (paternal) and he wasn't created with sperm. So the notion that a physical act had to happen and sperm had to be present for her to conceive is speculation on your part. There's nothing there to say a physical act took place. In all actuality the same description of events take place in your bible but I don't see you jumping through hoops claiming the bible says the holy spirit (angel) is the father of Yeshua.

The quran describes Isa in 4:171 as a spirit (a messenger) from Allah. The quran also says he was sent by Allah. From what I can tell the spirit of Allah said to her you will conceive and Allah says "be" and it will be.

Im not sure how can we expect a messenger from God, to gives a son to a virgin woman.

3:45
When the angels said, 'Mary, God gives thee good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary; high honoured shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God.


3:47
'Lord,' said Mary, 'how shall I have a son seeing no mortal has touched me?' 'Even so,' God said, 'God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He does but say to it "Be," and it is.

Your question asked and answered....

Where's the physical act? Where's the sperm if God can merely say "be"....? Remember Adam needed no sperm to be created. I mean that's why muslims find Adam and Isa to be the same....because Allah said "BE"......in both their cases.

3:59
Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was.

 

[ayani]

actually, Islamic understanding of what the "ruh al-quddus" is, vary. some associate it with the being Jibreel, others with Allah's spiritual power.

it has been translated into English as "holy spirit" and as "divine inspiration".

the words are related to the Hebrew "ruach ha-kodesh" meaning "holy spirit", which is how this phrase is translated into English in the Bible.

other synonyms for the Holy Spirit in he Bible include "Spirit of God" (Genesis 1:2), "power fom on high" (Luke 24:49), and "the spirit of truth" (John 15:26). Biblically, while the virgin birth is announced to Mary by Gabriel, an angelic messenger, it was the Holy Spirit which conceived Jesus in Mary's womb- not human seed. hence the Christian affirmation that God begat Jesus, His Power / Spirit being the initiater of Mary's pregnancy.

both Jesus and Adam are unique in being sons of God, but in Christian understanding there's more to it than that. as death, sin, and seperation from God entered the world through Adam's selfishness, release from sin, eternal life, and reconciliation to God come through Jesus' sacrifice. Adam is dead- Jesus is risen from the dead. Adam did not resist the temptation to sin- Jesus is without sin, and able in Himself to save us.

so for a Christian, the contrasts between Jesus and Adam take a more striking hue, and mean different things. without understanding the virgin birth, curcifixion, and resurrection of Jesus, a full understanding of the contrasts / similarities between the two men is missing.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

actually, Islamic understanding of what the "ruh al-quddus" is, vary. some associate it with the being Jibreel, others with Allah's spiritual power.

it has been translated into English as "holy spirit" and as "divine inspiration".

the words are related to the Hebrew "ruach ha-kodesh" meaning "holy spirit", which is how this phrase is translated into English in the Bible.

other synonyms for the Holy Spirit in he Bible include "Spirit of God" (Genesis 1:2), "power fom on high" (Luke 24:49), and "the spirit of truth" (John 15:26). Biblically, while the virgin birth is announced to Mary by Gabriel, an angelic messenger, it was the Holy Spirit which conceived Jesus in Mary's womb- not human seed. hence the Christian affirmation that God begat Jesus, His Power / Spirit being the initiater of Mary's pregnancy.

both Jesus and Adam are unique in being sons of God, but in Christian understanding there's more to it than that. as death, sin, and seperation from God entered the world through Adam's selfishness, release from sin, eternal life, and reconciliation to God come through Jesus' sacrifice. Adam is dead- Jesus is risen from the dead. Adam did not resist the temptation to sin- Jesus is without sin, and able in Himself to save us.

so for a Christian, the contrasts between Jesus and Adam take a more striking hue, and mean different things. without understanding the virgin birth, curcifixion, and resurrection of Jesus, a full understanding of the contrasts / similarities between the two men is missing.

The only thing the quran focuses on when it comes to the two is their creation. It is without a doubt that muslims have a strong regard for Isa. He's probably mentioned more than any other prophet in the quran. With that being said, there is nothing in the quran that describes the "spirit of Allah" or Allah as being the paternal father of Isa. That I know of the quran makes no other claims to the similarities of Adam and Isa. So from the Islamic POV the creation of them both were the same but Isa's life and mission was dfferent. As far as sin is concerned that is really a subject for another time. I can only say that from what I have read the quran and the Old Testament are in agreement when it comes to sin in that everyone is responsible for their own actions. The father shall not bare the sins of his children nor shall the sins of the father be upon them.