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Isaiah 53 and Human Sin

rosends

Well-Known Member
In reference to Psalm 20:6, you say that God saves the king who was anointed. Which anointed king is referred to here?
Here is one translation of 20:7 which incorporates the understanding in it:

[(This is the song we will sing)]: Now, [(by this victory You have wrought for Yoav and Israel)] I know that the L rd has helped his anointed one [David]. He has answered him from the heavens of His holiness with the strength of the salvation of His right hand.
In 20:9, we see that David's call for salvation is directed at God, the king. This must be a call to the king in heaven, who sits upon his throne.
Well, the JPS which you enjoy citing translates the verse
"Or in the light of v. 7, “O Lord, grant victory to the king; may He answer us when we call.”"

Is the JPS suddenly not good enough for you?
So, who is God's 'anointed one' on earth? Who is the shepherd king that God establishes on earth?
An anointed one would be the king of the Davidic dynasty (starting with David) or a high priest. The biblical term for a shepherd is applied to a number of different people, and to God textually. So in Ezekiel, the prophet speaks to the shepherds, meaning the leaders of the nation, whereas Psalm 23 says that God is my shepherd.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I see it where hundreds of other translators see it. But I'm long used to Jewish brethren "fixing" translations to veil Mashiach.
So you can't find it in the original and would rather run and hide behind other translators who also can't find it in the verse. I'm long used to Christians "inventing" interpretations without understanding the Hebrew text.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
No, they call HIM "my lord" using the same language that the subject of 110 is called "my lord." That's the point.

So then questioning why he would be bowing to anyone since he is king is useless, and yet that's what you did.

I'm not sure that there is a hierarchy of people in heaven but I'll let that go. Bottom line, Abraham is called "my lord" so 110 is about Abraham. Well done.

I agree that that is the poetic language that the texts use.

So Abraham is the son of God? Didn't you just confirm that he is the subject of 110?

Well, Solomon is called a son of God (in Sam and in Chronicles), the same way that David is called the son of God (Psalms 2:7), angels are called sons of God and the entire nation of Israel is called sons of God.
Do you believe that Abraham is seated at God's right hand, and that he's the Son of God?

Let me ask you a related question. In Jeremiah 22:24-30, God states that Jeconiah's seed will not sit on the throne of David, or rule in Judah.

After the Babylonian exile, there were no more kings from the line of David in Judah. Why, therefore, do Torah Jews imagine that a human Messiah (with a human father) will come and fulfil the rquirement to be the 'son of David'? Surely, the royal line is at an end.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Do you believe that Abraham is seated at God's right hand, and that he's the Son of God?
Abraham is a "son of God" in that all Israel is. And are you asking if, right now, physically, Abraham is sitting down on a chair to the right of God? How would I know? My guess is that, physically, no -- the language that discusses God having a "side" is metaphorical.
Let me ask you a related question. In Jeremiah 22:24-30, God states that Jeconiah's seed will not sit on the throne of David, or rule in Judah.

After the Babylonian exile, there were no more kings from the line of David in Judah. Why, therefore, do Torah Jews imagine that a human Messiah (with a human father) will come and fulfil the rquirement to be the 'son of David'? Surely, the royal line is at an end.
Not so surely.
You can read through this paper Genealogical Scams and Flimflams - The Jewish Home is you want, but also realize that according to the talmud, the curse was eventually lifted (Sanhedrin 37b-38a). If you reject the talmud then the curse stands though there is still other stuff in that article to content with.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Oh it makes "perfect sense". At least from a hard Christian perspective. Since Jesus failed all of the actual messianic prophecies those hard Christians had to invent their own. What better way that o quote mine one's own holy book? Who cares that the context always shows that it was not Jesus. When one has a need to believe one does not care about context.

In the NT, Jesus goes into the desert too fast and pray, before he began his ministry. There Jesus was tempted by SATAN, who among other things, offers Jesus all the wealth and power of the kingdoms of the earth. Had Jesus accepted this offer, he would have become the Messiah that was anticipated by the Jews. He would have had the power to do anything on earth including liberating the Jews from Rome since he would own Rome. Jesus could have become the anticipated Messiah, but chose not too.

Had Jesus accepted the offer, he would have had to bow down and serve Satan instead of God; chain of command. Satan was the Lord of the Earth in the OT and NT. Jesus never says Satan does not had this authority to make him the anticipated Messiah, since he knew he did. Instead by declining the offer, Jesus creates a political conflict in heaven, from which Satan is ultimately thrown from heaven. Jesus had the guts to challenge the authority of law and it's author, Satan.

Law is connected to the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is the tree of Satan. All forms of law; religious, civil and secular, all break down behavior into good and evil; binary or Satan. God never condoned the tree of knowledge of good and evil as an option for Adam and Eve and humans. That was Satan's tree and law had many pitfalls leading to death and suffering. After the fall, Satan was given authority over humans and the Earth, since they chose each other. See book of Job, where Satan is the CEO in charge of humans and God is the Chairman of the Board. Suffering comes to the world because of original sin and law and Satan being in charge.

When Jesus dies for our sins, he comes in direct conflict with Satan, since sin is only imputed where there is law. If you do away with sin, even by forgiveness, you also do away with law. Laws without sin are no longer laws, but become guidelines. Guidelines have no teeth, but can still teach and inform, but without judgment and punishment.

An analogy is you are speeding on the highway, and a police officer pulls you over. Since you broke the law the wage of your sin should be a fine. You are ready to be punished by the law. But the patrol officer does not give you a fine, but forgives your transgression, and lets you off with a warning. He tells you the speed limit is for your safety, not a way to make money or an excuse to punish you. Forgiveness of sin has the same end result, as no law. In both cases, there is no punishment, but the hope you will drive safely.

The sacrifice of Jesus for sin, brought all forms of law into question. This brought into question the authority of Satan, who was author of all law and punishment via knowledge of good and evil. This leads to a political battle in heaven and Satan is thrown from heaven; Revelations. When Satan is relieved of his authority in Heaven, Law is no longer condoned by heaven, but now is only man made and subjective. The righteous man shall live by faith, apart from works of law, since law is now only heavenly guidelines without teeth. Faith may bring one on both sides of the fence, so one can learn all things, without punishment. However, human law still exists via Satan.

The suffering Servant in Isaiah is from the future. He is the sensible slave whose master put him in charge to get things ready for this return. He comes after Satan is thrown from heaven. He is the son of the Divine Woman who is in labor and pain about to give birth. Satan is nearby, ready to devour her child, but the child is caught up to God and protected.The suffering Servant's mother is sent away with the wings of an eagle pursued by Satan. She lands waiting for her wings to be clipped. Satan leaves her to torment others.

The job of the Servant is to prepare the way for the return of the son of God, who is now the new Lord of the Earth, after Satan gets the boot. Symbolism suggests that the Servant is the White and then the Red Horseman of the Apocalypse. His end game is to become a human sacrifice for guilt; one of the two anointed ones.

Although sin had been forgiven by Jesus, and law had been neutralized into heaven as guideline, via faith, there was still guilt for not always taking the optimized or common sense path, when faith led you the wrong way, for a lesson of life. The guilt sacrifice addresses this human pitfall of faith. If there was no guilt, then one can truly live by faith, without overthinking due to guilt.

Although this change is evolutionary to faith, it leads to the rise of the Anti-Christ. He perverts the message of the sacrifice of guilt and uses it to justify all forms of evil intent. The Servant appears again, at the very end, as faithful and true, leading the armies of the Lord.
 
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WonderingWorrier

Active Member
How do you come to learn these mysteries?



At first I thought the words didnt make sense but tried to keep an open mind. Listen carefully to the crazy.

I was having strange word coincidences with the text which I shrugged off still trying to keep an open mind until it kept happening so I started to write them down. The words were grouping.

The words showed me a different way to hear the mysteries. I followed them.

The strange sentences began speaking sense.
Even myths and fairytales outside the text started making sense.



Like the philosophers stone:

Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts. Zechariah

As being a philosopher listening to the words of the prophets.

Hearing a law.

"And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses; Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead", Numbers


The law shows highest to lowest. Gold down to lead.

So the myth about the philosophers stone turning lead into gold does make sense scientifically.

By the lead and the gold of the law commanded to Moses.
Turning lead into gold would be turning low into high.


Seems there have been alchemists and scientists that have misunderstood the words.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Abraham is a "son of God" in that all Israel is. And are you asking if, right now, physically, Abraham is sitting down on a chair to the right of God? How would I know? My guess is that, physically, no -- the language that discusses God having a "side" is metaphorical.

Not so surely.
You can read through this paper Genealogical Scams and Flimflams - The Jewish Home is you want, but also realize that according to the talmud, the curse was eventually lifted (Sanhedrin 37b-38a). If you reject the talmud then the curse stands though there is still other stuff in that article to content with.
Based purely on Jeremiah's prophecies, the curse was never lifted. In Jeremiah 22:30 it does not say that Jeconiah would be childless but 'write ye this man childless' because 'no man of his seed shall prosper'. As the Chronicles show, Jeconiah had children but they were born in Babylon and were not counted as kings in Judah.

The curse against both Jehoiakim and Jechoniah is repeated in a number of different verses. In Jeremiah 22:19, Jehoiakim is 'cast forth beyond the gates of Jerusalem'. In Jeremiah 36:30, the LORD says of Jehoiakim, 'He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost. And l will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity; and l will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the evil that l have pronounced against them; and they hearkened not.'

So much for a curse being lifted! To lift the curse would mean that God's word does not come to fruition! Yet, God made a pronouncement against Jehoiakim and his seed!

I can understand why the rabbis would desperately look for an answer to this difficulty, but the problem is not solved by claiming that 'exile atones for everything'.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
So much for a curse being lifted! To lift the curse would mean that God's word does not come to fruition! Yet, God made a pronouncement against Jehoiakim and his seed!
So you deny the rabbinic understanding and the oral torah. That's fine. Then you can throw out the entire interpretation of the men as angels, plus all the other stuff that you have cribbed from the rabbinic ideas. And you can count yourself as denying Jesus' injunction to follow what the Pharisees taught (which was the oral law). It also means that you can't have Jesus as a "king". Have fun with that.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
So you deny the rabbinic understanding and the oral torah. That's fine. Then you can throw out the entire interpretation of the men as angels, plus all the other stuff that you have cribbed from the rabbinic ideas. And you can count yourself as denying Jesus' injunction to follow what the Pharisees taught (which was the oral law). It also means that you can't have Jesus as a "king". Have fun with that.
The scriptures should be believed for what they say. In Jeremuah 23:5,6 it says, 'Behold, the days come saith the LORD, that l will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a king shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and lsrael shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.'

In the Ramban v Rambam debate about the everlasting throne of David, one supported the idea that the throne was everlasting because the king was everlasting. To be everlasting, the king must be from heaven, not from earth. This is exactly what THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, the Branch, becomes through resurrection.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The scriptures should be believed for what they say. In Jeremuah 23:5,6 it says, 'Behold, the days come saith the LORD, that l will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a king shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and lsrael shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.'

In the Ramban v Rambam debate about the everlasting throne of David, one supported the idea that the throne was everlasting because the king was everlasting. To be everlasting, the king must be from heaven, not from earth. This is exactly what THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, the Branch, becomes through resurrection.
You quote Jeremiah and yet you ignore the next verse, that "In his days Judah shall be delivered and Israel shall dwell secure." So this completely knocks Jesus out of the running. So this is just another reason you should be abandoning Jesus.

Next, you misunderstand he Ramban vs. Rambam debate. Both agree that the messiah will be a human. The question is whether the messiah will come and then afterwards there will be a next world, or whether the messiah's arrival will constitute the advent of the messianic era which IS the next world. In the next world, the nature of being human will change so according to the Ramban, the human messiah will continue to exist because the entire world will change, not because anyone "must be from heaven." That's just ridiculous.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Not necessarily. It could be that the prophecy is fulfilled at a future time when there is no illness and death.

Isaiah 33:24 And no resident of Zion will say, "I am sick." The people who dwell there will be forgiven of iniquity.
The passage you quote demonstrates that there is a direct link between sickness and iniquity.

The Christian explanation, based on the revelation of Jesus Christ, is that God sends the Suffering Servant to deal with sin. lsaiah 53 explains that a price must be paid to atone for sins; as it says in 53:5, 'But he was wounded for our transgression, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.'

So, based on lsaiah 33, the servant of 53 cannot be the nation of Israel, because the people who are healed are supposed to be the servant who does the healing! This makes no sense.

There arises another issue, which relates to salvation from death. As scripture repeatedly tells us, God is the only Saviour from sin and death. Only God can endow man with the Spirit of everlasting life, and this Spirit is necessary if a man is to conquer death and be healed. Adam lost the Holy Spirit when he sinned, and all (unsaved) humanity now lies in sin. It makes just sense that humanity cannot save itself. Salvation must come from God. Yet, the Messiah, the righteousness and salvation of God, is understood by Torah Jews to be a man of human parentage. For Christians this is an impossibility, and marks any such Messiah out to be a false Messiah.

According to the NT, Jesus died, was resurrected, and then ascended to heaven on the clouds. His return, we are told, will happen in 'like manner' [Acts 1:11].
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
You quote Jeremiah and yet you ignore the next verse, that "In his days Judah shall be delivered and Israel shall dwell secure." So this completely knocks Jesus out of the running. So this is just another reason you should be abandoning Jesus.

Next, you misunderstand he Ramban vs. Rambam debate. Both agree that the messiah will be a human. The question is whether the messiah will come and then afterwards there will be a next world, or whether the messiah's arrival will constitute the advent of the messianic era which IS the next world. In the next world, the nature of being human will change so according to the Ramban, the human messiah will continue to exist because the entire world will change, not because anyone "must be from heaven." That's just ridiculous.
The Suffering Servant prophecies occur before the arrival of the king, showing that there is a need to deal with sin, in mercy, before bringing vengeance and judgment to earth.

Will the Messiah bring peace to earth? Only once he has brought destruction and judgment to the enemies of Israel. Who are the enemies of Israel? Are they not those that reject the righteousness and salvation of God, the Branch?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The Suffering Servant prophecies occur before the arrival of the king, showing that there is a need to deal with sin, in mercy, before bringing vengeance and judgment to earth.

Will the Messiah bring peace to earth? Only once he has brought destruction and judgment to the enemies of Israel. Who are the enemies of Israel? Are they not those that reject the righteousness and salvation of God, the Branch?
Again you misunderstand the suffering servant prophecies and start from the conclusion you need to find. Will the messiah bring peace? Yes. Who are the enemies? Those who fight with Israel. The "salvation" has nothing to do with them.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
There seem to be two ways of understanding Isaiah 53 in the context of sin:

1) Jesus paid for human sin
2) A righteous remnant of Israel/Jewish people atones for sin

Is there a passage(s) in Tanakh that describes how sin may be atoned for without an animal sacrifice (not punishment or repayment but actual atonement)?

Is there a passage(s) in Tanakh that describes how a human may atone for another human's sin?

Thank you.
While the Torah and Tanakh describe how animal sacrifices purified from unintentional sins and ritual impurity it never describes how God forgives greater sins without requiring a sacrifice. Jesus is the sacrifice for all. That's that. It's kind of the key to the puzzle. The missing piece. Now it all makes sense.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Based purely on Jeremiah's prophecies, the curse was never lifted. In Jeremiah 22:30 it does not say that Jeconiah would be childless but 'write ye this man childless' because 'no man of his seed shall prosper'. As the Chronicles show, Jeconiah had children but they were born in Babylon and were not counted as kings in Judah.

The curse against both Jehoiakim and Jechoniah is repeated in a number of different verses. In Jeremiah 22:19, Jehoiakim is 'cast forth beyond the gates of Jerusalem'. In Jeremiah 36:30, the LORD says of Jehoiakim, 'He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost. And l will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity; and l will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the evil that l have pronounced against them; and they hearkened not.'

So much for a curse being lifted! To lift the curse would mean that God's word does not come to fruition! Yet, God made a pronouncement against Jehoiakim and his seed!

I can understand why the rabbis would desperately look for an answer to this difficulty, but the problem is not solved by claiming that 'exile atones for everything'.
The curse was lifted by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That's why his crown was thorns. The point is ... (pun not intended) that the golden crown of the line of David (Psalm 21:3) had become a crown of thorns thanks to the curse. This is the curse that Psalm 89 deals with. (Psalm 89:38) Jesus puts the curse to death on the cross and rises free from it.

So he restores the fallen fortunes of the line of David. This is why he was killed after being proclaimed king in Jerusalem. They laid down palm branches and cloaks on the road for his donkey and a few days later they crucified him. Because the curse of coniah meant he could not prosper reigning in Jerusalem. But next time he comes he will be free from the curse.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The curse was lifted by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That's why his crown was thorns. The point is ... (pun not intended) that the golden crown of the line of David (Psalm 21:3) had become a crown of thorns thanks to the curse. This is the curse that Psalm 89 deals with. (Psalm 89:38) Jesus puts the curse to death on the cross and rises free from it.

So he restores the fallen fortunes of the line of David. This is why he was killed after being proclaimed king in Jerusalem. They laid down palm branches and cloaks on the road for his donkey and a few days later they crucified him. Because the curse of coniah meant he could not prosper reigning in Jerusalem. But next time he comes he will be free from the curse.
I think you're referring to the curse of death.

The curse that Jesus lifted through his crucifixion and resurrection was the curse of death. The curse on Jehoiakim and Jeconiah was a curse on their seed ruling in Judah. In Jeremiah 22:30, and Jeremiah 36:30, it says that their seed would not sit on the throne of David, or rule in Judah. This effectively puts an end to the royal line of David from a human perspective.

In Matthew's Gospel, the royal line from Jeconiah is mentioned, and follows through to Joseph. Yet, from the time of Jeconiah there were no more kings in Judah from the Davidic line. This is because of the curse placed on Jehoiakim and Jeconiah.

Jesus' entitlement to the throne of David comes from the combination of two genealogies through marriage. His mother's virgin conception also ensures that his throne will be eternal, for only the Son of God can sit at the right hand of the Father.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Again you misunderstand the suffering servant prophecies and start from the conclusion you need to find. Will the messiah bring peace? Yes. Who are the enemies? Those who fight with Israel. The "salvation" has nothing to do with them.
To your understanding, how is lsrael saved? What part does the Messiah play in the 'salvation' of lsrael?
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
In Jeremiah 22:30, and Jeremiah 36:30, it says that their seed would not sit on the throne of David, or rule in Judah. This effectively puts an end to the royal line of David from a human perspective.
Jesus did not sit on the throne of David. He got crucified. He never reigned; even though he was crowned king before he died. In resurrection the curse of Coniah ends. That's how it ends. As improbable as it seems that God would bother with Jeconiah again, you can see that even though he was cursed. Yet in Babylon he was chosen again in a way as was his son Zerubbabel. This is God signifying that the Messiah would come from them.

Psalm 89 deals with the line of David. How it was chosen, rejected and would be redeemed.

Jesus can now sit on the throne of David without any curse if he wants. He is sitting on the right hand of the power of God in heaven currently.

So the royal line has not ended. Jesus came to restore it. The crown of thorns represents more than one curse. It represents all curses on humanity and also including the curse of Coniah. That's why it is a crown.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
To your understanding, how is lsrael saved? What part does the Messiah play in the 'salvation' of lsrael?
What do you mean "saved"? Is that different from whatever you mean when you say "salvation"? Is there a particular Hebrew word that you understand as "saved"? If you are talking redeemed from bondage (like a captive) that's a root like p-d-h, if you mean "rescued from a dangerous situation" then that might be h-tz-l (I'm not sure the exact 3 letter root here). If you mean a more spiritual sense, like being lifted up and restored to a position of spiritual importance, maybe you mean a y-sh-ayin root. Are you thinking more like "to save up"? That's ch-s-ch.

Using loose English words without coming to terms with what you actually mean leads to your confusion.
 
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