Isaiah 53 and Human Sin

[rosends]

I believe people are quite often guilty of wishful thinking. There is no evidence for the Jewish position.

you mean besides the explicit identification of the Jewish people with the servant 6 times in the text of Isaiah?

 

[101G]

Isaiah 53 is the Lord Jesus, the ARM of God in Flesh. supportive scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

who is God's, "Own ARM?". answer, Isaiah chapter 53...... he, (GOD) himself in the ECHAD, Shared equally in a state of being G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō'), while in human flesh.

Now, Isaiah 53 is about a SINGLE "PERSON", and not a Nation. Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?"

101G

 

[rosends]

Now, Isaiah 53 is about a SINGLE "PERSON", and not a Nation. Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?"

101G

no, it is about the nation and the fact that it speaks of the nation as a collective singular is not all that unique. The text often equates the entire nation to a singular word like "man". Have you read Judges 20:17? Ezekiel 34:31?

And your 53:1 reference is not fully discussing the servant. It starts with the statement concerning what the foreign kings would not have believed, were they told about it:


"kings shall shut their mouths: for that which had not been told to them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they perceive.

Who would have believed our report? "

Then the text starts describing the nation and how it received favor from God:
"and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look at him, and no countenance, that we* should desire him."

*the "we" here is those same kings observing what they would not have believed had they only been told it.

 

[101G]

no, it is about the nation and the fact that it speaks of the nation as a collective singular is not all that unique. The text often equates the entire nation to a singular word like "man". Have you read Judges 20:17? Ezekiel 34:31?

And your 53:1 reference is not fully discussing the servant. It starts with the statement concerning what the foreign kings would not have believed, were they told about it:


"kings shall shut their mouths: for that which had not been told to them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they perceive.

Who would have believed our report? "

Then the text starts describing the nation and how it received favor from God:
"and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look at him, and no countenance, that we* should desire him."

*the "we" here is those same kings observing what they would not have believed had they only been told it.

NONESENSE.
101G.

 

[Firenze]

I believe people are quite often guilty of wishful thinking. There is no evidence for the Jewish position.

The evidence was provided in the OT. Your gospel authors simply lied about it to create their new religion. Christians hang on every word of the OT Word of their God..... until they don't. And yet Jewish eschatology still exposes the fraud of Christianity, and the lies about the attributes of the Messiah.

The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize

Learn about and revise key Jewish beliefs with BBC Bitesize Religious Studies - AQA.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Firenze]

NONESENSE.
101G.

I think if you're going to only provide an intellectually lazy response - you could at least take the time to spell it correctly. Just sayin'....

 

[101G]

I think if you're going to only provide an intellectually lazy response - you could at least take the time to spell it correctly. Just sayin'....

you got the point... didn't U?

101G.

 

[Firenze]

you got the point... didn't U?

101G.

If the point was that you couldn't manage an intelligent rebuttal, then yeah....

 

[101G]

If the point was that you couldn't manage an intelligent rebuttal, then yeah....

Long as you got it either way....... YIKES!

and yes, the Lord Jesus. God is the one person in Isaiah 53...... (smile), got that 2?

101G

 

[Muffled]

you mean besides the explicit identification of the Jewish people with the servant 6 times in the text of Isaiah?

I believe that amounts to cherry picking. Context makes a difference.

 

[Muffled]

If the point was that you couldn't manage an intelligent rebuttal, then yeah....

I believe that amounts to the kettle calling the pot black. I am not sure you can see the forest for the trees.

 

[rosends]

I believe that amounts to cherry picking. Context makes a difference.

What context? The context is the book of Isaiah. In his book, Isaiah makes an explicit identification, repeatedly. To claim that in another situation where Isaiah uses the same word he means something different, something that is not at all in the text is illogical.

 

[PruePhillip]

no, it is about the nation and the fact that it speaks of the nation as a collective singular is not all that unique. The text often equates the entire nation to a singular word like "man". Have you read Judges 20:17? Ezekiel 34:31?

And your 53:1 reference is not fully discussing the servant. It starts with the statement concerning what the foreign kings would not have believed, were they told about it:


"kings shall shut their mouths: for that which had not been told to them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they perceive.

Who would have believed our report? "

Then the text starts describing the nation and how it received favor from God:
"and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look at him, and no countenance, that we* should desire him."

*the "we" here is those same kings observing what they would not have believed had they only been told it.

Isaiah 52/53 is firstly about a nation, then a preacher, then a nation, then a suffering man who redeems his nation through his death and is resurrected.

 

[rosends]

Isaiah 52/53 is firstly about a nation, then a preacher, then a nation, then a suffering man who redeems his nation through his death and is resurrected.

Isaiah is about a nation and its behavior, its treatment and its future. It is about that nation's relationship to God and other nations.

 

[PruePhillip]

Isaiah is about a nation and its behavior, its treatment and its future. It is about that nation's relationship to God and other nations.

He came into the world as a child, suffered and was sacrificed. People were amazed at how he was disfigured. He was buried and raised, and was satisfied with his work of redemption. This is the same figure that David, Ezekiel etc speak of - the same person that Isaiah wrote of many times - the redeeming king. Zecharia speaks of the Jews mourning when they realized their conquering king is the same lowly man they pierced.

 

[rosends]

He came into the world as a child, suffered and was sacrificed. People were amazed at how he was disfigured. He was buried and raised, and was satisfied with his work of redemption. This is the same figure that David, Ezekiel etc speak of - the same person that Isaiah wrote of many times - the redeeming king. Zecharia speaks of the Jews mourning when they realized their conquering king is the same lowly man they pierced.

This is certainly your belief. It isn't in the verses, but only developed from your theological need, even as it flies in the face of what is actually IN the verses.

 

[PruePhillip]

This is certainly your belief. It isn't in the verses, but only developed from your theological need, even as it flies in the face of what is actually IN the verses.

Isaiah 53
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

And this from Zechariah 9 and 12. The Jewish king,reigning over the nations - but the same man they once rejected.

Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

And I will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit
of grace and supplication.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced,
and they will mourn for him as one mourns for
an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one
grieves for a firstborn son.

This should be marvelous in all our eyes.

 

[rosends]

Isaiah 53
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

And this from Zechariah 9 and 12. The Jewish king,reigning over the nations - but the same man they once rejected.

Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

And I will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit
of grace and supplication.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced,
and they will mourn for him as one mourns for
an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one
grieves for a firstborn son.

This should be marvelous in all our eyes.

You definitely have your own interpretation of these various translations, or at least you latch on to the interpretation others have established for you. Good luck with that. When you are ready to study the text as it actually is and understand the precise wording and references, let me know.

 

[Firenze]

I believe that amounts to the kettle calling the pot black. I am not sure you can see the forest for the trees.

Again, this is a poor substitute for intelligent debate. My claims were supported by the actual experts, as the link shows - the Jews that wrote the OT. What rebuttal can you offer, if any?

 

[PruePhillip]

You definitely have your own interpretation of these various translations, or at least you latch on to the interpretation others have established for you. Good luck with that. When you are ready to study the text as it actually is and understand the precise wording and references, let me know.

This explaining away of Isaiah 52/53 hearkens back to the Jewish sages of the Middle Ages.
What doctrine of Moses permits the Jewish nation to atone for the sins of other Jews by dying in their stead?
Why would God allow Jews who have never sinned to die horrible deaths?
And have any of these Jews been resurrected?