Isaiah says God will kill Jesus?

[blü 2]

the bible says nothing about empires, though they were everywhere.

You forget "Render unto Caesar the things that Caesar's" ─ incidentally something a real Jewish messiah would never have said.

And the bible says nothing about the prerogatives of kings over democracy

The bible is ALL about kings and NOTHING about democracy. The Son of Man isn't returning to earth to establish a democracy, not for one second. He's an autocrat, and he'll make Putin look like Santa.

It's all symbolic, particularly the cross.

So the crucifixion's just a tall story, you say? Well well well.

 

[PruePhillip]

You forget "Render unto Caesar the things that Caesar's" ─ incidentally something a real Jewish messiah would never have said.
The bible is ALL about kings and NOTHING about democracy. The Son of Man isn't returning to earth to establish a democracy, not for one second. He's an autocrat, and he'll make Putin look like Santa.
So the crucifixion's just a tall story, you say? Well well well.

Re 'render unto...'
Certainly the Jewish Messianic King wouldn't say that
but the Jewish Redeemer Messiah said it. And it's super-clever and insightful.
Zechariah showed this Jewish Messiah reigning over the nations - but the Jews
will mourn because it's THE SAME LOWLY MAN THEY CRUCIFIED.

 

[blü 2]

Re 'render unto...'
Certainly the Jewish Messianic King wouldn't say that but the Jewish Redeemer Messiah said it. And it's super-clever and insightful.

It's a nice piece of writing and (given an historical Jesus) I dare say it isn't historical, using the "too good to be true" criterion.

Zechariah showed this Jewish Messiah reigning over the nations - but the Jews will mourn because it's THE SAME LOWLY MAN THEY CRUCIFIED.

If there was an historical Jesus, and if he was crucified, one thing is certain: the Jews didn't crucify him.

And even if they had, they wouldn't have crucified anything resembling a Jewish messiah.

 

[PruePhillip]

It's a nice piece of writing and (given an historical Jesus) I dare say it isn't historical, using the "too good to be true" criterion.
If there was an historical Jesus, and if he was crucified, one thing is certain: the Jews didn't crucify him.

And even if they had, they wouldn't have crucified anything resembling a Jewish messiah.

Yes, the Jews didn't crucify Jesus. And yet they did by calling upon Rome to do so. Religious punishment
was stoning - the Jewish mob cried out for Jesus to be crucified.
David, the symbol of the two Messiahs - the rejected and reigning king, gave us an insight into this very
crucifixion in Psalm 22 and 69.

 

[blü 2]

Yes, the Jews didn't crucify Jesus. And yet they did by calling upon Rome to do so. Religious punishment was stoning - the Jewish mob cried out for Jesus to be crucified.

As I keep pointing out to you, he may be what Christians like to call a messiah, but given an historical Jesus he was a circumcised Jew, and given the gospel accounts of him, nothing like a Jewish messiah.

 

[PruePhillip]

As I keep pointing out to you, he may be what Christians like to call a messiah, but given an historical Jesus he was a circumcised Jew, and given the gospel accounts of him, nothing like a Jewish messiah.

Round and round we go. Please define what is the Jewish Messiah IN BIBLICAL TERMS, not what
some Jew told you.

 

[blü 2]

Round and round we go. Please define what is the Jewish Messiah IN BIBLICAL TERMS, not what some Jew told you.

Pay attention, class!

I told you before that a Jewish messiah is a civil, military or religious leader who has been anointed by the Jewish priesthood.

(It's also found as an honorific to non-Jewish magnates who have acted benevolently towards Israel, but that needn't detain us here, because if there's one thing Christians haven't been across 2000 years or so, it's benevolent towards Israel.)

 

[PruePhillip]

Pay attention, class!

I told you before that a Jewish messiah is a civil, military or religious leader who has been anointed by the Jewish priesthood.

(It's also found as an honorific to non-Jewish magnates who have acted benevolently towards Israel, but that needn't detain us here, because if there's one thing Christians haven't been across 2000 years or so, it's benevolent towards Israel.)

No, wot I mean is - where does this kingly Messiah come from, if not from the same source as the
Messianic Messiah.

 

[blü 2]

No, wot I mean is - where does this kingly Messiah come from, if not from the same source as the Messianic Messiah.

He comes from the ranks of the Jewish people, and is an anointed leader of them.

Given an historical Jesus, he was in the ranks of the Jewish people, but he was never a leader of them and he was never anointed by the Jewish priesthood. Instead he founded the most murderous antisemitic sect the world has ever seen.

 

[PruePhillip]

He comes from the ranks of the Jewish people, and is an anointed leader of them.

Given an historical Jesus, he was in the ranks of the Jewish people, but he was never a leader of them and he was never anointed by the Jewish priesthood. Instead he founded the most murderous antisemitic sect the world has ever seen.

The two Messiahs come from the Tanakh - warrior King and lowly Redeemer.
The Tankah abundantly makes clear the Redeemer will suffer and die - not so
much as martyr but for the sins of the people, hence the term 'Savior.'
The idea of the King appealed to the Jews for their current physical situation,
the Savior dying for their sins had considerable less appeal. Certainly many
of the authors of the Tanakh understood this when they said the Savior would
be rejected of His own people.

 

[blü 2]

The two Messiahs come from the Tanakh - warrior King and lowly Redeemer.

Only in Christian lore. As I said, and as you can readily check by glancing at the scholarship, the Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel. Jesus is not a Jewish messiah and Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh.

 

[PruePhillip]

Only in Christian lore. As I said, and as you can readily check by glancing at the scholarship, the Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel. Jesus is not a Jewish messiah and Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh.

Here is a classic example of a Messianic Savior from the book of Job (early Iron Age?)

I parsed the sentence, "I know that my Redeemer lives, and he shall stand on the earth in the latter day."

I… not someone else, me

Know… not believe, not think, not suppose, but know

My… not someone else's, mine

Redeemer… not a king, not a warrior, not a philosopher

Lives … not did live, not will live, but live as in now

He … coming as a man

Shall… not maybe, not possibly

Stand… not recline, lie down - but stand for something

Earth … here, this place

Latter day… in the future - for Job this about 500 to a thousand years before Jesus. Isn't that marvelous?

 

[PruePhillip]

Only in Christian lore. As I said, and as you can readily check by glancing at the scholarship, the Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel. Jesus is not a Jewish messiah and Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh.

Here is a prophecy about Judah, son of Jacob.
Joseph in Egypt had two sons not connected to the eleven Canaanite brothers - Ephraim and Mannesah. These boys would symbolize another Jewish age where the Jews are not connected to Jacob, and represent two tribes - one secular and the other religious.

Genesis 49:10
“The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his”


Parsed

The scepter - the symbol of monarchy. The Hebrews at this time were one small tribe sheltering in Egypt.

Will not depart from Judah - from Judah's tribe will spring this monarchy. This implies there will be a Hebrew nation.

Nor a ruler's staff from between his feet - Judah will be the protector of a law, so this Hebrew nation will have a law.

Until - the nation, monarchy and law will eventually be terminated.

He to whom it belongs shall come - Messianic prophecy of a man who shall come and the world belongs to Him

and the obedience of the nations shall be his - not Jewish obedience but the world's obedience. The Jewish nation ends with this Messiah.

 

[blü 2]

Here is a classic example of a Messianic Savior from the book of Job (early Iron Age?)

I parsed the sentence, "I know that my Redeemer lives, and he shall stand on the earth in the latter day."

I… not someone else, me

Know… not believe, not think, not suppose, but know

My… not someone else's, mine

Redeemer… not a king, not a warrior, not a philosopher

Lives … not did live, not will live, but live as in now

He … coming as a man

Shall… not maybe, not possibly

Stand… not recline, lie down - but stand for something

Earth … here, this place

Latter day… in the future - for Job this about 500 to a thousand years before Jesus. Isn't that marvelous?

To both your quotes, so what?

Jesus isn't the redeemer of the Jews, God's chosen people, with whom [he[] made [his] covenant of circumcision ─ as I said, Jesus is the fons et origo of 2000 years of frequently murderous and even more frequently rapacious Christian antisemitism.

 

[PruePhillip]

To both your quotes, so what?

Jesus isn't the redeemer of the Jews, God's chosen people, with whom [he[] made [his] covenant of circumcision ─ as I said, Jesus is the fons et origo of 2000 years of frequently murderous and even more frequently rapacious Christian antisemitism.

No, I asked you what do the orthodox Jews base understanding of their kingly Messiah upon.
It's not enough to repeat what they say. Indeed, at varying times they had all sort of Messiahs,
even in our own day and age (last was maybe Rabbi Menachem Schneerson New York d.1994)
And how does the orthodox Jew explain 1800 years of brutal exile.
And wht do orthodox Jews explain away half of all the Messianic prophecies.

 

[blü 2]

No, I asked you what do the orthodox Jews base understanding of their kingly Messiah upon.

Basically, on the criteria I mentioned before.

And I'm looking forward to your explanation of why God would send a messiah to inflict 2000 years of murderous and rapacious antisemitism on [his] Chosen People.

 

[PruePhillip]

Basically, on the criteria I mentioned before.

And I'm looking forward to your explanation of why God would send a messiah to inflict 2000 years of murderous and rapacious antisemitism on [his] Chosen People.

The Jews are 'chosen' in a SYMBOLIC way, just as Jesus' crucifixion heals in SYMBOLIC ways.
The symbol is this:
There are a people who love God more than their own lives, who are moved by the scriptures and
cannot abide human nature and the way of the world. Scripture is replete with such people, but they
were alwasy a minority.
So God has given us this symbol of His people through the Jews - small in number, persecuted,
blessed, cursed, a tiny nation in the midst of their enemies, a wandering people (think Abraham
and Moses) to PARALLEL, as real historic events, God's own message of how people should
live and think.
Jews weren't much different than anyone else really, but that's not the point. They symbolize. And
so we have the return of the Jews to signify the Gentile end times.

We can believe biblical events where nations were destroyed and the Jews exiled, persecuted,
hated and killed because it's happening in our age too. I am not to question God allowing the
Jews to be killed in Crusades, pogroms and Final Solutions - He said in scripture he would do
this. One survivor of the concentration camp, now gone, asked me of this God, 'Where was he?
Where was he?' when Jews were dying. I didn't have the heart to ask this secular woman, 'Where
were YOU when God called?'

 

[blü 2]

The Jews are 'chosen' in a SYMBOLIC way, just as Jesus' crucifixion heals in SYMBOLIC ways.

Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you [...] 11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.​

The symbol is for the everlasting deal between God and the Jewish people.

And given an historical Jesus, he, as I keep pointing out, whether in his qualifications or in his consequences, is not a Jewish messiah.

 

[PruePhillip]

And given an historical Jesus, he, as I keep pointing out, whether in his qualifications or in his consequences, is not a Jewish messiah.​

You say that without giving evidence.
Jesus is not a Messiah to most Jews - even those who welcomed him to Jerusalem with palm branches
still did not believe in him. Even Jesus own disciples still asked, 'Will you even now restore Jerusalem?'
But there's TWO messiahs in the Tanakh, and Jesus is one of them. As for the other, Zechariah says the
Jews will mourn when he comes to rule over the nations - they will see he's the one they crucified. And
Zechariah wrote of this lowly king on a colt 500 or 600 years before Jesus. The Jews to this day have
no idea what Zechariah was on about.​

 

[blü 2]

You say that without giving evidence.
Jesus is not a Messiah to most Jews - even those who welcomed him to Jerusalem with palm branches
still did not believe in him. Even Jesus own disciples still asked, 'Will you even now restore Jerusalem?'
But there's TWO messiahs in the Tanakh, and Jesus is one of them. As for the other, Zechariah says the
Jews will mourn when he comes to rule over the nations - they will see he's the one they crucified. And
Zechariah wrote of this lowly king on a colt 500 or 600 years before Jesus. The Jews to this day have
no idea what Zechariah was on about.​

Who would recognize a Jewish messiah better than a Jew?

And the Jews didn't recognize him as a Jewish messiah ─ why should they? He wasn't.

And why would God sent the Jews a messiah ─

a) whom [his] chosen people wouldn't recognize and

b) who was going to found a cult that has murderously and rapaciously practiced antisemitism for 2000 years?